c0ldk453

I have a couple of questions that can't be answered easily... Why do people not use ProjectE in their modpacks, and why has no one tried to produce a better alternative to FTB: Monster!?!?

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Honestly, EE2 is hands-down one of my all-time favorite mods, and the MC community has always loved it. However, it went obsolete because of this "almighty" EE3. Now, EE3 could get interesting, but it's been a bunch of trash for a very long time (I hope to see progress on it within the next couple of months, but we'll have to see if that actually happens). Point being: EE3 is a very incomplete project and EE2 has been recreated. The only modpack I have seen ProjectE in that is really viable in terms of use is TCR Classic Reborn. And honestly I have not seen a single pack that resembles FTB: Monster in the Technic community besides Tekkit itself (which is very under-stacked with mods comparatively). Now, as a Technic junkie, I wanna know why something like FTB: Monster hasn't been at the very least attempted. I put in so many hours into FTB: Monster because it had the most mods I'd ever seen in a pack, and I can say that, even though it was more complex than rocket science at times, I absolutely loved it and the challenges in both knowledge and memorization it brought. I would attempt the feat of recreating this modpack myself if I weren't working a 40-hour-a-week job. I miss Thaumcraft (which is not in TCR Classic Reborn), but still love EE2, and so it would be great if someone would someday take up this epic challenge of a full FTB: Monster recreation + ProjectE. Any thoughts on my ruminations? (Btw, the site for ProjectE is http://www.curse.com/mc-mods/minecraft/226410-projecte )

 

To any MOD: please let me know if I'm violating any rules.  I am new to the forum, and I believe that my post is within your guidelines.

Edited by c0ldk453
Grammar issues and better specificity, removal of weird formatting

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EE2 is _very_ op and as a result ProjectE is as well

​That doesn't matter.  A person can easily configure which items are usable in servers (and depending on how the server is crafted, even change recipes), and in SMP, who cares?  ProjectE (EE2) has a lot of features separate from the OP items that in my opinion are great.  The mod in general is really well-crafted, and I'm really interested on why no one cares to use it.  Being OP doesn't seem like the best excuse to me.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand your sentiment in terms of having overpowered tools, armor, etc.  However, tools like the Transmutation table are what made EE2 and EE in general a great mod.  It made it to where the crafting table was used much less frequently and gameplay in general a bit faster-paced, and it made useless items (cobble) be able to be something much more useful (redstone, iron, etc).  If we want to talk about OP, we can talk about IC2's quarry.  That and EE when combined are straight-up way too OP, and an automated system (BC pipes, hoppers, etc.) just make it worse.  Energy condensers would even have to be taken out if you were running a server with both EE and IC2 (or quarrys if you are thinking along my line of thinking).  Point being EE2 as a standalone isn't really OP at all.  Yes, with some of the quarry functions of IC2 and some other mods, it can become OP.  But that can easily be regulated by a server, and like I said, in SMP, who cares?  If you seriously want to remove the OP functions from your SMP, you can just configure that yourself in the config files.

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They way that ProjectE (EE2) is OP is almost insidious when including other mods. Energy Condensers are trivially easy to bootstrap and once you have a condenser system in place it eliminates ALL other forms of resource collection, crafting, mod progression, etc. Entire tech and magic build trees are made obsolete by a trivially assembled condenser system. Yes, the condensers can be banned/blocked but the transmutation table has nearly the same issue when integrating with other mods that can make infinite amounts of "trash" items which have EMC.

ProjectE has been around for a while now and is used by a lot of folks, I'm sure. I even have a pack with it installed, but I do remove the condensors. However, it's a pack which has no easy way to make infinite items to be consumed by the transmutation table thus reducing how OP it is, and it fits the rest of the pack theme. Nearly everyone who makes modpacks is aware of ProjectE and would use it if they wanted. No one is stopping them.

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They way that ProjectE (EE2) is OP is almost insidious when including other mods. Energy Condensers are trivially easy to bootstrap and once you have a condenser system in place it eliminates ALL other forms of resource collection, crafting, mod progression, etc. Entire tech and magic build trees are made obsolete by a trivially assembled condenser system. Yes, the condensers can be banned/blocked but the transmutation table has nearly the same issue when integrating with other mods that can make infinite amounts of "trash" items which have EMC.

ProjectE has been around for a while now and is used by a lot of folks, I'm sure. I even have a pack with it installed, but I do remove the condensors. However, it's a pack which has no easy way to make infinite items to be consumed by the transmutation table thus reducing how OP it is, and it fits the rest of the pack theme. Nearly everyone who makes modpacks is aware of ProjectE and would use it if they wanted. No one is stopping them.

​Yes, I absolutely agree with the condenser system being too much for most any server.  Removal of such an item would almost be absolutely necessary.  However, (and let me know if I am wrong on this), but you can't just pump things into the transmutation tablet.  And as for manually dumping quarried cobble into a tablet, I would personally rather not.  (There are some people that will dump a stack of cobble for a piece of redstone over and over again, but I would personally find it really annoying.)

Infinite-generation machines are going to inherently break the system.  I can see your point on that.  However, a change in default EMC configured values can also lessen this issue.  By doubling or tripling the values of higher-up EMC items (Make sure you keep everything scaled appropriately.  You could also consider making low-value items such as cobble have no EMC value / not be transmutable, which is also a possibility.), you can scale the system to be more appropriate for multiplayer.  

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but EE2 has configuration for both banning items and default EMC values, last I checked.  Despite the mod being inherently flawed as a whole (which is why EE3 was started, but it looks like it'll have some of the same inherent flaws), it can be bent to meet the needs of most people.  Yes, it'll take time and patience, but honestly I see much reward in doing so, and it can make a server a more interesting environment in general.

 

EDIT: The EMC scale is a 2^x system.  By making it a 3^x system or a 4^x system, you are inherently devaluing the lower EMC-value items and making the higher EMC-value items more valuable, due to the exponential curve.  Certain scale-downs on some items may be necessary for a 4^x system, but it wouldn't take too much math to accomplish a decent system.  Now, individually mapping EMC to every item will take quite a bit of time (more depending on the mods you use), but again I would find this to be a worthy cause in the long run.  You might even check the community and see if someone already has a system they configured themselves, and see if they could let you use their configuration.

Edited by c0ldk453
Additional thought.

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If you wanted to make a whole pack with ProjectE as its foundation that could totally work. However, creating and maintaining a themed pack can be very time consuming and most folks just don't see the benefit of jumping through a ton of hoops just to include ProjectE when there are more clever/novel game mechanics available. To a certain degree, EE2 has just "aged out" and more mature/rich systems are what is popular.

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If you wanted to make a whole pack with ProjectE as its foundation that could totally work. However, creating and maintaining a themed pack can be very time consuming and most folks just don't see the benefit of jumping through a ton of hoops just to include ProjectE when there are more clever/novel game mechanics available. To a certain degree, EE2 has just "aged out" and more mature/rich systems are what is popular.

​I know it's time consuming.  I've been modding Minecraft and have been running servers for 5 years+ now.  It's quite the job, and now that I'm working full-time, I can't do it myself.  Trust me, I would if I had the time.  And if I had enough Java experience, I would do some modding of my own.  (Not too good at coding, but I have the creative mind to design a mod quite well.)  I just miss having the mechanics of EE in my modpack gameplay, and would like to see some kind of similar mechanic in my modpacks someday soon.

 

Slightly Off-Topic (mod ideas):

If I had any say in the development of a new mod, I'd love to do something with an alchemical theme such as EE, but I'd really want to integrate it with Thaumcraft (because Thaumcraft is just a beautiful mod all around, especially with the end-game content provided by TT).  Thaumcraft is one of the most dynamically constructed mods I have ever seen, and I just love it.  I just wish there were transmutation mechanics and equivalent-exchange mechanics involved with it.  There are many openings in Thaumcraft (which is what makes it so dynamic), but there's especially huge potential in the alchemical field when it comes to Vis and the different forms of it.  Certain items have certain classifications of Vis, and being able to reconstruct an item out of its base Vis types would be a great form of equivalent exchange (while maintaining a good nerf on exchanging any item for any other item).  The way that crucibles work in Thaumcraft makes turning items into Vis a simple matter, and then turning Vis into an item would just need a new block and GUI with the function of target-block recreation.  The instability mechanics that Thaumcraft uses could make this matter much more interesting too (for example, trying to reconstruct a diamond using simple stone-type Vis might result in taint issues or other side-effects).  For people looking for an automated system of reproducing items, this would be a nightmare, but for a magic enthusiast, this could be a great mechanic addition.

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the MC community has always loved it

​That's... quite debatable.

​tools like the Transmutation table are what made EE2 and EE in general a great mod.  It made it to where the crafting table was used much less frequently and gameplay in general a bit faster-paced, and it made useless items (cobble) be able to be something much more useful (redstone, iron, etc).

​Personally, I preferred EE1's original system of all transmutations being done via different patterns of items in a crafting table with the philosopher's stone (and at the time it could even be automated reasonably well with the addition of Buildcraft's autocrafting tables, and it would require quite a bit more effort and thinking to set up an automatic transmutation system with it compared to something like EE2's condenser where you just shove everything into one block), but maybe that's just me.

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That's... quite debatable.

I guess you're right on that.  XD

Personally, I preferred EE1's original system of all transmutations being done via different patterns of items in a crafting table with the philosopher's stone (and at the time it could even be automated reasonably well with the addition of Buildcraft's autocrafting tables, and it would require quite a bit more effort and thinking to set up an automatic transmutation system with it compared to something like EE2's condenser where you just shove everything into one block), but maybe that's just me.

Really, anything that could slow down someone from converting trash into treasure so easily would make the mod a bit more balanced. 

Edited by c0ldk453

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I agree that EE1 was arguably more balanced.  The only thing you could produce out of thin air was glowstone and obsidian.  That in and of itself was slowwww, so you needed a lot of aggregators.  You then had to make use of other mods to actually automate production of any other resource from it, which made it feel like you were really doing something.  It was incredibly similar to UU matter in that respect.  Then they basically condensed (pun intended) that down into a single block in EE2.  Which isn't to say EE2 was bad at all, mind you, just certainly easier to abuse.

As for modpacks, they tend to follow trends, and there's this whole obsession over balance these days, so I wouldn't worry too much about what they do.  If you like Project E, throw it in whichever pack you want, or just put your own together.  It's never been easier.

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