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zedkiller

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About zedkiller

  • Birthday 12/06/1983

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  1. Gavejenks, you made a very lengthy argument but it assumes there is no economic specialization. But it seems to ignore my earlier post about the topic, almost all of what I said, and it really doesn't at all address the fact that specialization exists in the form of unique capital and knowledge. Your assumption that logging and mining take the same amount of time for all players falls apart when you consider the fact that players have unequal capital and knowledge e.g. one player may have 6 quarries and the other none, causing mutual benefit for the poorer player to work as the logger and trade with the quarry operator, or having fortune 3 tools; there are myriad ways specialization can exist by creating both manual and automated production pipelines (e.g. a non UU non EE slow, but legitimate cactus farm). UU matter (and EE) aren't just specialization and economy killers, however, they also disincentivize the creative acquisition of resources through a wide variety of different builds and activities in favor of only one activity, manufacturing UU (or EMC).
  2. Say I have a chest full of junk and I want to send it to 30 recyclers, without creating tons of lag due to items floating around in pneumatic tubes aimlessly for hours and hours. I want the items to go to their destination... then arrive... and stop getting clogged up, stop floating around. I can fetch the items using 30 retrievers hooked to the recyclers(extremely expensive, but not laggy). Or I can attach a filter to the chest, and have it spit stacks into the 30 recycler tube system and add 30 regulators to be used as buffers. Is there a more elegant way to solve this problem / a solution that does not involve making 30 of something? Thanks!
  3. Oh about the buckets, if you want my math for solar to apply you'd best ban the recipe for Tin Buckets. Otherwise there's a kind of furnace that can smelt buckets back into iron, and players will use that to get cheaper iron. If I'm not mistaken this "exploit" makes the time taken to produce solar nukes and a lot of stuff from UUM considerably shorter.
  4. Good point jojo, you bring up another reason UU matter is bad, once achieved its huge variety of recipes kill specialization too. I will add this to the op. Omicron, that's an interesting solution, are you blocking ice from recyclers as well and banning covalence dust? I think maybe nukes and combustion engines are still gonna be OP, but taking away "easy" recyclers also nerfs UU some. Your setup should mitigate the damage some but don't underestimate how fool-proof and lag inducing some nuclear reactor setups (once they fix thermal monitors being glitched) are and the same for combustion arrays (and remember BC2 pumps cause lag). Although I find player ingenuity to be completely remarkable, even with your setup UU matter may still be the most efficient way to get most things without piling on another flat nerf to UU production. Here's a reasonable litmus test, is the most efficient way for players to get cactus to generate more UUM, or to make a cactus farm? The more I think about this I'm pretty sure the only current safe fix using that uses bukkit plugins for the current build is to block most UU matter recipes, or else you can try to play whack-a-mole with a number of clever uses of recyclers that you and I may or may not be aware of and nearly every powerful low cost form of EU generation and probably many other things like furnaces that smelt buckets.
  5. Hey Greenwolf, I agree with this flaw, which makes my math an underestimate and like you said HV production even faster. One way to solve this is to just correctly calculate the true doubling period up front, then you can use a simple exponential growth function without e. Or you can bake e and k into an exponential function to calculate the doubling period in your math, either way is OK. For a fairest estimate, I would use an exponential growth function in units of MVs instead of HVs; that is to say, I think its fair to assume players add MVs to their solar farm once an MV is built but not before; and account for recyclers by making it the sum of 2 exponential growth functions. By all means, I also posted this on the tekkit subreddit, copypasta what I wrote, I'm glad to share it. :-) Warpspeed, "Economies can't exist in minecraft" is not a belief held by enough players that the syllogism I'm making isn't pertinent to a large amount of the community. For those players, there is a reason they may sometimes play on EE banned servers, for some of those reasons you yourself mentioned, and the things I'm saying are relevant to their point of view. That said, your claims that SMP lacks scarcity and specialization are wrong. Scarcity exists through the requirement of player time to acquire blocks and specialization exists in the form of unique capital and knowledge; you yourself named a very good example of economy, a fortune 3 pick is a great example of specialization, making diamonds more abundant, and also making it possible for the guy who runs a brewery to mutually benefit from the miner and vice versa. That's all I have to say about the claim that economy cannot exist in this thread, but I'll only continue to beat that dead horse in a separate thread.
  6. Hey everyone, there are many Tekkit servers that try to foster a player economy as well as a survival theme with limited resources. These servers usually disable items that quickly produce enormous amounts of material at unreasonably low cost, or create "infinite money loops", for example the Condenser and several other items in equivalent exchange. Despite also being a fan of EE, I like to enjoy the technic pack in many ways and I get a kick out of these economy servers. Now... the reason EE is banned on economy servers is that some players will exploit them to quickly produce, well, basically everything, and can achieve nearly creative mode within a dozen hours or so given sufficient EE macgyvering skills. The most damaging part of this is the fact that abusing resource-producing modules based on EE have an exponential growth effect as you can make more and more of them from the resources they produce. My goal with this thread is to show how UU matter actually does the same thing, though not as quickly or obviously, it WILL result in creative mode and an economy warped around UU value given enough time and a crafty group of players. So, UU matter, what is it? There's a device called the Mass Fabricator that turns IC2 power (as well as Scrap) into a material called UU matter that can be used to produce almost anything. I've noticed after playing for hundreds of hours that eventually an infinite UU-Matter-HV Solar producing loop can accomplish pretty much the same degeneration as EE, once a player is sufficiently rich. Furthermore, there are other overpowered setups for producing UU, that most players don't actually know about. It actually gets more degenerate than that though. Here's an example of a UU loop that is extremely overpowered and can be accomplished in just 40 hours playtime after a few rounds of quarries/mining: snowmen->block breakers(if not banned from breaking snow then use pumps)->compressors->Ice for both an array of overclocked recyclers and a couple I-O-SUC nukes which generate about 4000 EU/T total, wired to a UU generator which is both fed 4000 EU/T and scrap from your recyclers. You will have almost a chest full of UU in no time and be ready to start breaking down the economy piece by piece by massing HVs if that is what you would like to do. But Zed, it takes 70 stacks of iron alone to make an HV Solar Array! How can that be overpowered? Exponential growth, it's the most powerful force in the universe my friends! Warning: math. All calculations round down or rely on some underestimation. Furthermore, they underestimate by ignoring economic step, that is, the fact that you don't make your HVs all at once but can also hook up your MVs and LVs as you go to produce power even faster.* So without going into excessive detail, and I will elaborate this math if asked, given a willingness to lag the server and other factors, you can turn 1 HV into 2 using double overclocked recyclers and mass fabricators in approximately 100 hours w/ chunk loaded, assuming 20 ticks per second on the server and only day/night. Approximately 400 hours of the chunk being loaded if you use no recyclers but also save EU not having to power all the machines. This sounds like a long time. However, the player doesn't have to be online, the chunk just has to be loaded for HVs to produce UU. Assuming a clan of players create plots next to each other, and they each play for 4 hours at random times, a serious offender could easily have his chunk loaded for 16 hours a day, so let's round that down to 100 hours per week. **Then HVs and solar energy sources can be doubled in a week with recyclers, and doubled in a month without recyclers.** So assuming a player needs, say, 2 real world weeks of playing on and off to build his HV, enough recyclers to support 2 HVs hooked to a mass fab, then in 2 more real world weeks he can turn his 1 HV into 4 HVs (first HV doubles in a week, both HVs double in second week, total HVs:4). In the next week, he can produce 2 more HVs from his 2 HVs using recycler scrap setup + 4 MVs from his 2 HVs not using scrap. So in 1 month of real world time, it's possible for a player to achieve 6 HVs + 4 MVs. At this point, in just a month, irreperable damage has been done. Anyway, let's say our player is more enterprising. He's gotten 6.5 HVs at this point, game broken, but why stop? He can double them every month now. Month 2: 13 HVs. Month 3: 26 HVs. Month 4: 52 HVs. Month 5: 104 HVs, can probably give every new player an HV if he wants to. At this point chunk loading has become a serious problem so we'll stop at 104 HVs. tl;dr: Mass Fabs and HVs can produce enough UU that a player can estimably have 6-7 HVs in the first month of server uptime, producing UU 16 hours a day due to the fact that other players, guildies, etc. build in nearby plots, keeping his chunk loaded while he is offline. The UU production of this many HVs is creative mode, and can already cause severe damage to the player economy. The number of HVs can double every month if a chunk is loaded by player activity for 16 hours a day. At the current rate of growth, catastrophic damage can be done to the economy after only a month, and signs of damage should materialize. Nerfing the mass fab or making UUs more expensive will not solve the problem, it will only make it take longer to materialize. Also note that since UUM produces most other blocks, it eliminates most desire for economic specialization, from mining to cactus farming. Conclusion: Unless producing infinite stuff is fine, economic servers need to prevent crafting and placement of MVs and HVs, AND block ice as a recycler target and probably other blocks I haven't been clever enough to think of as a recycler target; OR they need to disable the crafting of most materials with UU matter except for irridium ore.
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