slowpoke101

Actually right now I am completely cool. Surprisingly I think me and Jakj are a lot closer to not hating each other than we were yesterday its just a single bone of contention now and that is cool.

And you maybe missed what I quoted when I said in hindsight Sengir's solution was not perfect. Look at the end of the day Sengir had a goal, that goal was to have his mod removed from the Technic Pack, people may not agree with his decision but again we should respect it. Could he have achieve that goal by coming and asking directly for it to be removed. Maybe, we will never know. But lets be honest here and apportion blame where it belongs and it certainly does not rest solely at Sengirs door. Technic was the instigator here, lets not forget that and maybe you could and should at the very least ackowledge this?

OK Jak let me humour you and fix you analogy . Joe Foobar is a painter, and has created some really nice prints. He has stated that anyone who wants to have copies of these prints for themselves are free to make them. Fred Quux owns a gallery a few towns over, and wants to help his local community (who have trouble travelling, aren't that good with copy machines, and may not even know about the prints in the first place), so he goes and makes a copy of the prints, and then starts making more copies himself and hands them out to the locals. Fred knows that Joe has a strong dislike for Freds gallery because this isn't the first time that Fred has taken it upon himself to deny a painter his or her right to choose how their works are distibuted. Fred feels that because something in on the internet and distributed for free then those actions invalidate any rights that an artist may have to distribute their own works. Not only this, in the past Fred had tried to appease Joe by sending him a few dollars to show is apparent appreciation of said works in order to support Joes efforts. These dollars were promptly returned, thus further enforcing the fact that Joe really didnt want anything to do with Fred or his Gallery. Despite knowing all of this in advance, Fred decides to say I dont care what Joe thinks, I will decide what is good for Joe because I am Fred and I know best and well, fuck Joe. Now, Joe and Fred never really talk, so things just carry on, with people enjoying the prints. Then Joe gets fed up, goes to Fred's town, and starts putting pastrami sandwiches in the mailboxes of anybody who got their prints from Fred. A nice hot day goes by, and when people start checking their mail the next afternoon, it smells like six goats died all over town. So they have to clean out all the sandwiches and scrub down the mailboxes, and Fred gets rid of his copies of the prints, telling people to fend for themselves if they want them in the future. Joe nods to himself, and doesn't make any more sandwiches. FIXED FOR ACCURACY.

So killer, 2 being kind of unreasonable is true, but then I am trying to make suggestions that might actually work and not just pull suggestions out of my ass. The reasoning behind number 2 is to show that Technic is willing to go beyond the call of duty so to speak in order to make this happen. As to what you do if there are no consents and should the end user be a part of this. I pretty much addressed this already at the end of my post. The point is that this is initially for the Technic Admins and then you guys to decide what is and what is not worth attempting. It is also worth remembering that these only apply to me and do not apply to anyone else. I came on this board to discuss a post that I made on my forums that had been reposted here. I came here and initial faced a fair amount of hostility and I am still here, hopefully during the course of the last 24 hours peoples opinions at least of me have changed a little. mikegigs, I have seen this argument of community backlash before and quite honestly it just does not hold up at all to any sort of scrutiny. I can tell you what I do know for an absolute fact. First, the amount of end users that have taken sides on this and made or make comments without having a single clue about the actual facts is simply astonishing. It may take a little time to get the point across, but I honestly believe that with just a little education from people who have a voice in the community and posts made openly from the developers with regard to the situation the backlash would be minimal. Danidas, I see no major problem with your idea, If they start with the commitment that Technic will not release a new version from here on in without following through on something like what I have wrote, that would seem to me like a good starting place. That would give you plenty of time to resolve those permissions (we are still a good few weeks away from seeing enough mods updated and ready for release).

So onto the wall of text, it is great to see this conversation carry on overnight. So take it as confirmed CovertJaguar is the real CovertJaguar. So gotyaoi, this is kind of backwards considering the technic guys said dont start shit but personally I think you have a legit question. Hold on, I will ask a mod developer right now. OK so spoke to a developer who has a closed source mod, from his point of view keeping his mod closed source has allowed him to maintain a greater degree of control over the way his mod has evolved and this has helped to keep him motivated on the development of his mod. The feeling was that going open source may remove some of that control and the motivation to continue development would disappear. So moving on to Mooseman and SirSengir and Flowerchild. Flowerchild is not someone I have ever spoken to, so I cannot really speak for him. My natural bias through being friends with Eloraam steers me against his side of the story re: Forge. Does Flowerchild have a point, maybe. Does Flowerchild have the right to not make his mod Forge compatible and intentionally make it incompatible with most mods, Absolutely. The only comment I will make is I never had any interest in BTW until a couple of days ago and whilst the technical aspects of the mod are lacking a bit. The guy is creative as hell and knows how to balance a mod. He also knows how to communicate with his community. Have any of you ever taken a minute to look at how much he interacts with BTW users. Its a LOT, trust me. Having said all that, flowerchild is still an ass for staying away from Forge lol. Which leads us onto Sengir and his infamous exploding bee's. Maybe this next bit might help some people to look at this from the other side of the coin. I am copy/pasting something I have aready written this morning so I could have it checked for inaccuracies before posting, my memory is terrible for things like this. Having spoken to Sengir with regards to this situation just today whilst it is technically correct that he never directly asked for Forestry to be removed. Kaker was fully aware of the fact that Forestry was in technic without any sort of consent. Sengir had made his feelings very clear in public, He had returned donations that had come from technic, hell Kaker even said at the time when BC was handed over to Sengir and Krapht that he already knew Sengir hated him. In hindsight that code may not have been the perfect solution, but it wasnt quite nearly as destuctive as some people made out and it was disabled shortly after Forestry was removed from Technic. There is something that I would like you all to know, over the past few months it has been my pleasure to actually get to know Sengir a bit. I would like to assure you he is not the Devil and he not a monster. I would like to make some sort of joke her about having an evil streak or something. But the truth is, he is a coder who is absolutely busting his gut to not just give the community Forestry but also help to keep Buildcraft alive (especially problematic at the particular moment in time with the recent changes to Mincraft and Forge.) I actually spoke to him briefly about this just yesterday whilst I was on this Forum and even he said that in the right circumstances if Technic was shown to be totally legit, he would possibly rethink his position (I Want to make this next bit VERY CLEAR, first possibly means posssibly. That was a fairly big bridge that was destroyed over a long period of time and also some sweet talking just is not going to cut it. This isnt about appeasing people or throwing a bit of money Sengirs way. It is about substantive real change to the way that Technic approaches this sort of thing both now and in the future. Moving on to Dragonshardz. We are already at the middle ground, truth be told. The middle ground is most developers tolerate their mods being in technic pack without actively supporting it. This is a discussion about the possibility to move away from that middle ground and towards the point where Developers may actually be able to actively support the pack. This however is where we have the huge problem, because you have to remember it isn't the Mod Developer that needs to or even should be moving towards the centre. The mod developers are not the ones who did anything wrong here. They are looking for the same thing now that they have always wanted and that is respect for the work that they do and the their wishes for the mods that they create. Respect is not defined by throwing up a donation link and thinking lets chuck a bit of money at it. I have done pretty much all I can for right now. The ball is in the Technic Administration Teams court now, what they do from this point on is up to them. I can provide what little help I am able to if I genuinely see that the team really do want to change things for the better. I have no idea what the mod developers would want to see, but my own personal guidelines for what I would be looking for in order for me to see that they are willing to make a change and be willing to get involved in the process are pretty simple. 1) The creation of a thread on these forums in public for all to see that allows mod developers to come and and post either a consent or not on the thread. 2) The commitment that any mod whether that mod be open source or not would be removed from the Technic Pack immediately and not put back in until a time when said developer was happy to give consent for the mod to be returned. (I am not sure how you would want to address the issue of mod developers who do not respond at all, however I would be inclined to remind you that putting a mod in and worry about permissions later is what got us into that mess in the first place. I can pretty much guarantee that if you went into this with the mindset of permissions not posted are permissions not given would go a HUGE way towards making developers happier about this whole thing.) 3) All mod developers that have mods included in the pack are indiviually contacted by a member of the technic team informing them of the existence of this thread and re iterating their commitment to abide by the wishes of the mod developer. 4) The understanding that any consents given in that thread are conditional upon the only mods contained in technic are those that have given consent. I understand that this is no small task, but honestly I do not see any of those as being unreasonable or not doable. The question that I would say the current technic administrators and technic end users have to ask is are the benefits of having developers actively support technic worth the pain that something like this would entail. Worst case scenario again, is no one posts and technic stays as tolerated. I will be around a lot of the day to answer anything that may come up. But honestly The ball really is in your court now, talking can only take people so far here.

So good morning, a good nights sleep and refresh the brain before stepping once again into the arena that is Technic Forums. Very quickly before I get into this, @ Spartanyanni, my wash my mouth out with soap and water last night, was intended to be humour. It was late, I had been following the thread pretty much all day, I was extremely tired and if it came across wrong to some people, I apologise. @Noonespecial Apology accepted, I wanted to say very quickly that it is my hope that at the very least some of you go away from this with the understanding that all of us. The Mod Developers, The Technic team, now the FTB team, we all do what we do for you guys the end users. We dont really get anything substantive for it and we dont really need anything substantive. The one thing the Mod Developers ask for is to show them a little bit of respect and common courtesy, even if you dont agree with everything you do. Just like I am sure Kaker and Cheap Shot and the other admins are perfectly nice people when you get to know them. The same is true for the developers. I can honestly say, hand on heart that of all the modders I have been privileged to talk to over these past months. There is only one that I would consider to be somewhat of an egotistical dick and even then, I never really spoke to the guy so I am basing my opinion on very little actual information. Anyways I want to stop this post now. This is more aimed at the end users and I have a pretty substantial wall of text incoming so I didn't want to ask everyone to read that, when the part that applies to them only takes a little to say. I apologise in advance for technically breaking the forum rules by double posting, however Like I said there is a pretty large wall of text coming that a lot of people may not care to read.

Oh and spartan is right about that, the FTB pack is not identical to technic, there are differences in the mods currently and the mods we have picked have been picked for a reason. That doesn't mean that Technic cannot get in touch with those authors though and put together a similar pack or that FTB could one day be part of the Technic Launcher (excuse me while I go and wash out my mouth with soap and water).

Of course Kaker is not going to step down or be asked to step down by any of you. I am fully aware that I am making a suggestion that will never happen. You are right though getting on good terms with the modders is a way you can move forwards. I would suggest maybe make the offer both in public and through direct contact to each and every modder whether the mod is open source or not that you will upon request remove the mod from the pack until they are comfortable with having the mod back in the pack. Get that damn thread up in here, forget minecraft forums for right now, find out where you really stand and do this openly for all to see. Show everyone that you are willing to genuinely make an effort to resolve this conflict and make a change to the way the pack operates. We are both totally rogue right now, I have absolutely no right to speak for a single developer and there may be no interest insomething like this, but what does it hurt to try.. Worst case scenario, no one responds and the status quo is maintained. I will say I dont expect this would be an overnight fix, more a case of taking time to rebuild bridges. Cheap Shot it is purely because you and others have given me a place to discuss this throughout the day that I am still here. I dont think we need to suck up to each other any more though lets just both agree we are both OK guys and jakj is an ass and we can go on from there though. From here I think I will head to bed though, the bal is pretty much in your court though. If you decide to do something about this and it is done openly and in a transparent manner, then if there is something I can do to help, then I will. Remember though, I am just a voice, I can help to open lines of communication, but the actions have to come from you. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than any words. Night all.

Thank you Killer, that post right there has proven that my day has not been wasted.

Public posts, no but then I have not followed this that closely if I am totally honest. The vast majority of the information I have is third party. The only reason I give that information credence though is the identities of those third parties. It is all from the developers and this leads to my bias towards them. I totally understand that I have a severe bias toward their point of view, after all I speak to them on a regular basis. X3n0 and I and a couple of others spent quite a bit of time talking about this subject. I spoke to Azanor in the last couple of days with regards to the idea that Technic 'inspired' Thaumcraft, suffice to say his recollection of events differs somewhat to that opinion and I also have close ties to Eloraam and again I do not wish to speak for her, but I can say this apparent friendship between Kaker and Eloraam, well I certainly have seen no evidence of that. So Jay, honestly but if you believe that any of the modders refuse to publicly endorse Technic because of some perceived possible backlash from the community, take my word for it or not but I have seen absolutely nothing to support that claim, in fact the opposite is true. It wasnt that long ago Pahimar and other Mod Developers started discussions with Cheap Shot with regards to this very thing, they did not seem to fear a backlash then. I was talkingback then to Pah about this very thing, people may not want to believe it, we actually were willing to help out. Perhaps things have gone to far now, its not like I am posting here in secret, of course people have seen what I am writing hell I made sure I informed them myself. Most of them just plain dont care anymore, it might just be a case of we tried, we failed, move on and try something different. Can I also just say that my original post was not aimed to stir up a hornets nest. It was intended as nothing more than just a place that I could point people to to give my views on this debate when they ask me why no FTB for technic pack etc. There was a time I got far to heated about a subject that was really none of my business at the end of the day. This has given me a place so in future I can just say go here, these are my views, if you want to question them , thats the place to do it.

Hey Xylord, it was quoted in my OP that was copied here. http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356 Post numbers 62 and 65 are prime examples. Post number 62 is Kaker very clearly giving the impression that he is to use his words and yet 3 posts later after being called out by CovertJaguar from Railcraft, his attitude has changed to This is the kind of thing I really have an issue with. That first quote, OK I am not going to claim to speak to any of these people. But people can either accept what I say as truth or not when I say that that first quote to the best of my knowledge is complete fiction and even if it was true that would make the second quote even worse becuase it effectively says that Kakermix is using the mods of his 'friends' without even bothering to ask them first. Or maybe he is saying that he uses there work and they later became friends. Really do I actually need to ask anyone if that sounds remotely plausible? Also this excuse that they dont say anything about it 'because we don't want to cause drama between the modders themselves if we can help it.' People actually accept that line as the truth and don't even question how ridiculous that sounds. Kaker isn't the devil I am sure. I also am happy to believe that he came into this with the best intentions. But right now his presence may be doing more harm that good. Ask yourself IF this is the case, which is more important Kakermix or Technicpack. Again I only make a suggestion, for all I know it wont make a blind bit of difference and Technic are happy and destined to a life of tolerance and never outright genuine acceptance and quite possibly everyone is happy with that.

Nice post Cheap Shot, there is certainly a lot of information about the early days of your mod that I was unaware of. I can relate to a lot of what you say about the early days and trying to get any sort of established back together I imagine would have been hard as you are essentially breaking new ground. The questions I have with regards to this still come back to this, I think everyone accepts and knows that in the early days relationships between you and the mod developers was harsh. You say that the attitude of the modders was venomous towards you, But I still do not have a clue which modders were venomous towards you. I will give an example, and I hope if he reads this he forgives me for using him as an example. I know x3n0phobe quite well within the context of Minecraft and we spoke quite a lot about things like technic. His grievance with technic was never that You used his mod without his permission. It was that he was never asked about it. Not before the yogscast featured the pack, not after the yogscast featured the pack not ever and he was not the only developer that I have heard this from. Its like the post I quoted on the IC2 forums, CovertJaguars used the very same argument, he was never even given the chance to say yes or no. Which brings us to today. You used a word earlier that I would now say accurately describes the relationship between Mod Developer and Technic. You are now for the most part tolerated by the modders, but that is as far as it goes from what I can tell. This idea though that modders are working together due to the technic packs involvement, I am not quite sure where you get that from. It is true that a lot of the modders are working closer together (At least the modders we are interested in) But if you speak to them, it is more down to the fact that they now communicate with each other a LOT more than they used to. When the Direwolf20 IRC channel opened a lot of those modders gathered in there and they still do. This opened up totally new avenues of communication for a lot of them and they use those avenues a lot. This all leads me on to my main point of contention with Technic. I am not saying that you or any of the Technic admins are making this claim. But a lot of people who purport to speak for technic certainly make the claim that Technic is completely legitimate now with actual permissions for every mod that is currently in the pack. My contention is that there is a difference between knowing you are tolerated and knowing that you produce a pack that is fully supported by the mod developers. As I said earlier, I do not feel it is to late for technic even now to resolve this. However I do feel that the step you would need to take is one that you would not be willing to take even though it would be in the best interests of both the pack and its future. This of course is Kakermix either volunteering to or being asked to step down. I do not know the man and I will take your word that he is a good guy. However no one can deny that with his attitude and the comments he made in public a lot of bridges were burnt down in the past. In order for technic to truly move forwards those bridges need to be mended. I think it is again important to note here. I am absolutely not saying that removing Kaker from the team would have any effect whatsoever. It may not make a blind bit of difference (however a couple of modders I spoke to today about this very idea commented that it wouldnt hurt) I do NOT speak for any developer though, these are purely my own thoughts and should be only taken as so. Coming off that line though, the business of making a mod pack, yeah I am quickly becoming extremely aware of what is involved. However my biggest worry right now is getting an effective launcher in place. I think I have the rest of the bases covered. We have the mods, the forums are kind of in place. We have the distribution covered with a nice high speed uplink. (10 gigabit uplink I understand) However and I keep trying to tell people this, the FTB mod pack is not being made to kill technic. That would be stupid, you have a lot more experience a huge user base and most important you have Yogscast. 1.5 million people a week watching Simon and Lewis play technic plus the hundreds of thousands more watching other youtubers and streamers do the same thing, well we are not putting a dent in that any time soon and nor do we want to. Honestly what it boils down to is the FTB launcher will let people play FTB maps in an easy way. It will let us add in third party maps that other players have made so they dont have to worry about configs. It will let people be able to download and install texture packs and know that all the mods involved are supported (because we can maintain the quality from our end) We kind of already had that, we are just using a launcher this time and vastly expanding the number of mods we use. The next logical step was to set it up so that people wernt just restricted to using the launcher for FTB maps but could use it for normal worlds to. It is good from where I sit though to at least have an open line of communication with you and I am glad that we can have this conversation in a transparent manner. I know it may be easier to do this sort of thing hidden away in PM's etc, but I much prefer to do this sort of thing out in the open for everyone to see and make their own comments and judgements.

Doh, to early on the coffee LOL. Cheap Shot, however this conversation progresses from here, I want to thank you and those that have tried to get involved in the discussion for at least having the discussion. The chances are nothing will change at the end, but well we can all hope, even if only for a short while.

Oh wow, a coffee post. brb putting the kettle on

To be honest there has not really been much that people can cover, as most of the actual facts are not there for people to see. I can tell you that of course I have bias towars the mod developers point of view. But here is the thing that concerns me, Why if these mod developers are friendly with the technic pack admins now and why if you have permission to use all of these mods is there even a need for this discussion. Everyone reading this already knows that I talk to a lot of these people both in public and in private. If they were supportive of your pack I wouldn't be here. I am not here on wild hearsay or false illusions. I actually took the time to talk to all the mod developers. What I found was on the mods in the technic pack, you currently have 'permission' to use around 90% of the mods through open general licences etc. There are a couple that are being used without consents. However and this is where it becomes important, I cannot find a single mod developer that is willing to openly say they actively support Technic. This is something that I do not understand if technic is truly a legitimate pack. Because the only thing this has resulted in is me putting together a team to make an alternative pack. One question no one has taken the time to ask themselves or me is this. Why am I making FTB The Mod Pack, it certainly isn't for the fame that goes with it and no one is getting rich off of it lol. I dont now nor did I ever really want to do it. As I am sure you guys can testify to, it is far to much like hard work for me. If the mod developers were supportive of technic, they could just come out either in public or in private and say dont waste your time, just use technic its fine. That obviously hasnt happened. I will answer the question now and I hope a few people will look at this and understand what this means. I was asked to make the mod pack, I have been asked to make it for quite some time and I have resisted. I was not asked by end users and I was not asked by FTB people. I was specifically asked by Mod Developers to do this, not all of them by any means, but a lot more than one of them for sure. They did not ask me because it benefits them becuase it certainly doesn't. the FTB Mod Pack will be distributed without any advertising links involved. There will be one advert on the site and that is for the company that is providing the web hosting. Nobody gets paid for this, we do this because we are in the very fortunate position to be able to do something like this and we see it as a responsibility to do this and do it correctly, for the benefit of all. Of course this all sounds very enlightened and high and mighty etc. But I can only go off my track record, hopefully that speaks for itself.

derp yeah, i didnt did I. I was kind of trying to say 'May I ask that people at least recognise that mod developers are making these mods for the end user and irrespective of whether or not people agree with the way they do things, they do actually care about end users and the experience they have.

May I ask one thing here, with regards to mod developers not respecting end users and not giving back to the community. They do nothing but give to the community, I sit here daily watching and listening in as they are busting their guts trying to bring the mods up to date. This particular iteration is especially difficult because they are not just trying to accommodate fundamental changes to minecraft code, but also there have been major changes to Forge code to. Yet they all all there every day trying to provide the end user with the best possible mods they can. You may not agree with every decision they make, I know I do not. But we can all at least show they some respect and not call them all sorts of nasty names. Remember you always have the choice to just not use the mod.

Its cool Cheap Shot, your guys have kept me going all day. I am actually enjoying the discussion for the most part.

Yeah Neowulf, I give credit to The forum admins for allowing this thread to stay open. You are right there are a lot of haters out there. Unfortunately the vast majority of them (both for and against technic) are ignorant of any of the facts. Most people who go round claiming Technic is illegal etc etc are totally jumping on bandwagons because they have no clue what laws if any are being broken. They just see the words illegal somewhere and that makes it illegal to them and they have chosen a side and they stick to it. By the same token most people that use technic follow a similar sort of pattern. They see a name they know saying technic is legit so they to say its legit, However when it comes down to it, they dont actually care one way or the other whether it is legit or not. danidas, that is news to me. I had no idea that technic had anything to do with flowerchilds decision to become incompatible. He quite clearly states in both his thread and in an interview he did that it was down to a disagreement with Eloraam about how they should move forwards with Forge.

Yeah not intentional and edited . As to what developers, I dont speak to every developer in the pack regularly, but certainly the vast majority of them are people I talk to on a regular basis. This is only because we play on the same servers, we are in the same IRC rooms and a lot of them use the Teamspeak server I run. Psicraft really? where does this sense of entitlement come from. How is a mod developer disrespecting anyone by keeping a mod closed source. As an end user it shouldnt make any difference if a mod is closed source or open source. Hell most end users probably wouldnt know the difference. I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention secret mod functionality. If you are talking about the legit reason for a mod to be closed source. The the reason has nothing to do with that. It is just not something that it is not my place to say. Oh and yes there is a way to resolve this. Actually there are 2 ways. Way number 1, technic stays as it is, nothing changes. Way number 2 Technic goes legit publicly and this whole discussion is ended. I don't mean to sound elitist, the impression I get is that most people here just don't care about permissions, you feel you are entitled to have someone take all the mods and put them into an easy to use mod pack. Thats cool, my comments are not aimed at you. My comments are aimed at those that claim that Technic is a legit mod pack that is distributed with the full support of all the relevant mod developers.

Oh cool, a decent post from danidas. But first a correction. Noonespecial1, I apologise I re-read my comment and realise I have made an error in not making my point clear. When I say you are irrelevant, I mean it in the context of this conversation because you add nothing to it. As an end user, we are all striving to make the game more entertaining for people like yourself and in that context you are extremely relevant. I want to make something clear, I do care about end users, I just dont put them any higher or any lower in priority as the Mod Developer. This pack that I am making, just like the technic pack doesnt benefit the Admins of technic, The FTB pack does not benefit me in any way. We all do this for the same reason, we just differ in the manner we go about it. So danidas 2 quick things to note. Whilst this idea of a mod auther forcing conditions on a mod pack before consent is given may seem wrong, is that not the developers call to make, after all they are the people making the mod. We may disagree with decisions that developers make, hell I know I have disagreed with quite a few. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt respect their right to make those decisions based upon the fact they own the mods. As for technic updating regular, thats awesome. Like I said I have never tracked the updates of technic, but if they do keep on top of the major mod updates and bring them out in a timely manner then cool. and finally, I know you guys cannot be held responsible for other technic users going to the threads of developers, but in the instance of tech support, I would suggest a bit more than the normal leeway. Remember you are building this pack for people who are not tech inclined. So they may not measure up to the usual standards and we all know forums can be a ruthless place. Psicraft, this may come as a shock, but I agree with you. In a perfect world all mods would be open source, and this would be a totally unneeded conversation. However this is not a perfect world and not all mods are open source. We dont need to agree with the decision to respect the decision though. I can say as a side topic for at least one of the mods there is an extremely valid reason for it being closed source. As to me deciding what is and isn't valid. I am trying my best to answer anything that appears to be constructive. If I have missed something out, please point this out and I will do my best to address it. Please note, I am here, in your playground playing by your rules. I am not the type of person to just back down from a debate. But again I say I am not totally closed minded. Its like perpetual earlier, claiming that Kaker cares about the end-user more than the most of the devs because Sengir added in a bit of code which caused trouble for Technic users. Code which shortly after was deactivated by the way. The point however, Sengir is not most of the developers. Is there a single other piece of code in any other mod that attacks the end users? No, so that line doesnt really work now does it. Maybe you should have wrote Kaker (who has a history of not giving a care in the world about developers) cares more about the end user than Sengir (because he put in a bit of code that had his mod removed from the technic download.) You do understand there is nothing to stop you manually adding Forestry into Technic now right. Perpetual your right it is your playground, you play how you want. More power to you, as long as you dont claim legitamacy for what you are doing.

Nicely argued Nonespecial1. I shall take into account you eloquently made argument take into account your points and um do absolutely nothing. Thankfully however this has literally nothing to do with you. You are one of those end users that contributes nothing to a discussion or the community and just takes what they want without any consideration for anyone other than yourself. In other words you are irrelevent.

So danidas I am sorry but this argument about yogcast making it public and it being to late to get permissions just does not stand up in any way. They didnt get permissions in the early days, not because they asked and were denied permissions. They just did not care and they just never asked. This isnt my words, this is kakermixs words. Yet no one seems to look to him for an explaination of that? It wasnt that they were told no in the early days because as far as I can ascertain and I have spoken to a number of mod developers about this. Not a single one was given the opportunity to say yes or no back then. Perpetual me suggesting Kaker leave is stupid, its never going to happen we all know that. My point is I am giving a valid possible solution to the problem. That solution involves the admins recognising that the pack is bigger than the Man. If Kaker left technic today? would that hurt technic? I have no idea because I have no idea what his contribution is. Then we look at the possible benefits, again I want to make this clear, I speak for no developer here, these are purely my own thoughts. Kaker leaving technic, may open the door that allows the other admins to repair a lot of the damage that was done in the early days. Wouldn't it be cool to see a pack like technic with a full set of open permissions and the distribution capabilities of Technic supported by youtubers like Yogscast on the minecraft forums. Opening up to an even bigger audience than it already has. But its never going to happen because and this next line is really important. Kakermix does not care about the end user. He only cares about the ones that believe what he says. Is there a single none admin person reading this thread who has seen this list of permissions that technic has? anyone? Dont take things on blind faith, question assertions that are made without evidence. Hey if I am wrong and this list exists thats awesome. I keep saying and I mean it, show me some evidence in a public place for all to see and I will support the pack to the hilt. But dont worry, I am a small fish in a big sea and no one is going to do that now.

Because rightly or wrongly. Some developers believe they should have the ability to control the distribution of the mods they take many many hours to develop. I have no idea what purpose that serves, but I would hazard a guess that it is to protect the end user. I cannot say I have closely followed technic packs policies, so correct me if I am wrong. But I am given to understand that the updates are not what one would call regular. This might be a problem for developers in that they may believe that the end user is not getting the quality they deserve. There are other issues, but these are not necessarily Technics fault, such as Technic users going to individual mod threads for tech support rather than coming here. But that is all kind of besides the point legal or not. When a mod developer puts on their thread that they would like to be notified or asked before including a mod in a pack. Then take the couple of minutes to write a PM and ask.

No I believe you are an ignorant bafoon because you start your post off with the line So everything else that follows is based on that concept. Yet if you had taken the time to actually comprehend what I had written then you would understand that from my OP and in the very next sentence I dont know about anyone else, but from where I am sitting my quotes directly address your 'fundamental issue' Furthermore, your earlier post Sorry but that is the kind of attitude that got us to this point. Yeah the mod developers wish was to deny the end user a convenient and easy way to play the mod. That is ignorance at its finest, it had nothing to do with denying people an easy way to play the mods. If that was the goal, Then why is it the FTB pack and others have been given explicit written consent to use these mods in packs. I can answer that for you, Because they were asked Thats honestly the only difference. Kaker made the pack with the attitude of We do not ask permission, we take and we do what we choose. We will worry about permissions later. The rest of us took the 2 minutes to go to the developer and actually ask for permission. I see a lot of people in here going blah blah blah, mod developer bad guy, technic good guy. But not one person has been able to actually counter any argument I have put forth, not one person can refute any claim I have made and actually provide sources for their arguments (you know like I did). I am happy to have the debate with you all. But at least let us have a debate, bring something to the table. I am honestly not some closed minded arse. If someone can bring some sort of evidence that goes against what I am saying, I am happy to conceed points.