tomboy Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Dear people of the forum, my son has been playing Minecraft for a few years and we think it's a very fun game. That's why we have purchased an official version. Now he would like to install Tekkit and I have downloaded the TechnicLauncher and it works. He makes a dir ".technic" (in the same directory as .Minecraft) and places the files (mods) in there. At the end of the installation there must be a Minecraftboot but, that won't happen. I get the following message in the screen: "There was a fatal error starting Minecraft and FML". Can anyone tell me what is going wrong so he can't boot in Tekkit-mode? The only thing I can think of is that the installed version of Minecraft is too new (1.5.1) and that Tekkit here may not yet can work with but, how can I get an original Minecraft 1.4.7 without automatic update?! Bert
Richs_Yard Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 You have to use the launcher to launch the mod. Dont try to launch it via minecraft. Oh and Minecraft is indeed too updated for Tekkit.
tomboy Posted April 23, 2013 Author Posted April 23, 2013 You have to use the launcher to launch the mod. Dont try to launch it via minecraft. Oh and Minecraft is indeed too updated for Tekkit.OK, I understand but, when comes the new version of Tekkit?
SXScarecrow Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Tekkit Classic hasn't been, and probably won't be updated beyond 1.2.5. However, Tekkit Lite is on 1.4.7, and will be on 1.5.1 very soon!
theprolo Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Just download it through the launcher. You don't need to install anything yourself other than the launcher, and it might be an idea to completely remove the .technic directory you made already. It'll create a properly made version and download the correct version of Minecraft.
tomboy Posted April 23, 2013 Author Posted April 23, 2013 Just download it through the launcher. You don't need to install anything yourself other than the launcher, and it might be an idea to completely remove the .technic directory you made already. It'll create a properly made version and download the correct version of Minecraft.I deleted de directory .Technic and .Minecraft (after I make a Backup) restart dthe system and run the launcher. Then it downloaded and install al the mods and then came up with the same message: "There was a fatal error starting Minecraft and FML".
lukeb28 Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 Go here: http://www.technicpack.net/download Select your OS. Once the download is done, place it on your desktop (Optional). Run the file and the launcher should come up. Click on the pack you wish to play and login. If you continue to have problems then go into the .technic folder, then the modpack folder (If you tried to launch tekkit lite, it will be named tekkit lite), and near the bottom there should be an FML error report. Please post that and we will be able to better help you.
tomboy Posted April 23, 2013 Author Posted April 23, 2013 Go here: http://www.technicpack.net/download Select your OS. Once the download is done, place it on your desktop (Optional). Run the file and the launcher should come up. Click on the pack you wish to play and login. If you continue to have problems then go into the .technic folder, then the modpack folder (If you tried to launch tekkit lite, it will be named tekkit lite), and near the bottom there should be an FML error report. Please post that and we will be able to better help you. OK, here's the content of the report: 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Forge Mod Loader version 4.7.35.556 for Minecraft 1.4.7 loading 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] All core mods are successfully located 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Discovering coremods 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Found a candidate coremod [1.4.6]TreeCapitator.Forge.1.4.6.r07.Uni.CoreMod.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loading coremod [1.4.6]TreeCapitator.Forge.1.4.6.r07.Uni.CoreMod.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loaded coremod [1.4.6]TreeCapitator.Forge.1.4.6.r07.Uni.CoreMod.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Found a candidate coremod CodeChickenCore 0.7.3.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loading coremod CodeChickenCore 0.7.3.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loaded coremod CodeChickenCore 0.7.3.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Found a candidate coremod CustomPortForge.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loading coremod CustomPortForge.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loaded coremod CustomPortForge.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Found a candidate coremod NotEnoughItems 1.4.7.0.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loading coremod NotEnoughItems 1.4.7.0.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loaded coremod NotEnoughItems 1.4.7.0.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Found a candidate coremod PowerCrystalsCore-1.0.3-34.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loading coremod PowerCrystalsCore-1.0.3-34.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Loaded coremod PowerCrystalsCore-1.0.3-34.jar 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/argo-2.25.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:10:55 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/argo-2.25.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:10:56 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Download complete 2013-04-23 22:10:56 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Download complete 2013-04-23 22:10:56 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Library file argo-2.25.jar was downloaded and verified successfully 2013-04-23 22:10:56 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/guava-12.0.1.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:10:56 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/guava-12.0.1.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:01 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] There was a problem downloading the file guava-12.0.1.jar automatically. Perhaps you have an environment without internet access. You will need to download the file manually or restart and let it try again 2013-04-23 22:11:01 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/asm-all-4.0.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:01 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/asm-all-4.0.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:03 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Download complete 2013-04-23 22:11:03 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Download complete 2013-04-23 22:11:03 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Library file asm-all-4.0.jar was downloaded and verified successfully 2013-04-23 22:11:03 [FINEST] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/bcprov-jdk15on-147.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:03 [iNFO] [ForgeModLoader] Downloading file [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/bcprov-jdk15on-147.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] There was a problem downloading the file bcprov-jdk15on-147.jar automatically. Perhaps you have an environment without internet access. You will need to download the file manually or restart and let it try again 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] There were errors during initial FML setup. Some files failed to download or were otherwise corrupted. You will need to manually obtain the following files from these download links and ensure your lib directory is clean. 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] *** Download [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/argo-2.25.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] *** Download [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/guava-12.0.1.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] *** Download [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/asm-all-4.0.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] *** Download [url]http://files.minecraftforge.net/fmllibs/bcprov-jdk15on-147.jar[/url] 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] <===========> 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] The following is the errors that caused the setup to fail. They may help you diagnose and resolve the issue 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] A download error occured 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] A download error occured 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] <<< ==== >>> 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] The following is diagnostic information for developers to review. 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] Error details java.lang.RuntimeException: A download error occured at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:483) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.handleLaunch(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:132) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.setupHome(FMLRelauncher.java:155) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.relaunchApplet(FMLRelauncher.java:242) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.appletEntry(FMLRelauncher.java:212) at net.minecraft.client.MinecraftApplet.init(MinecraftApplet.java:25) at net.minecraft.Launcher.init(Launcher.java:127) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameLauncher.runGame(GameLauncher.java:210) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameUpdater.runGame(GameUpdater.java:136) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginFrame.onEvent(LoginFrame.java:309) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginWorker.doInBackground(LoginWorker.java:103) at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker$1.call(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(Unknown Source) at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker.run(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(Unknown Source) at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source) Caused by: java.net.SocketTimeoutException: Read timed out at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance0(Native Method) at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(Unknown Source) at sun.reflect.DelegatingConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(Unknown Source) at java.lang.reflect.Constructor.newInstance(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection$6.run(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection$6.run(Unknown Source) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getChainedException(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getInputStream(Unknown Source) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:467) ... 17 more Caused by: java.net.SocketTimeoutException: Read timed out at java.net.SocketInputStream.socketRead0(Native Method) at java.net.SocketInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at java.net.SocketInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.fill(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.read1(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.http.HttpClient.parseHTTPHeader(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.http.HttpClient.parseHTTP(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getInputStream(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getHeaderField(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getHeaderFieldLong(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getContentLengthLong(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getContentLength(Unknown Source) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:466) ... 17 more 2013-04-23 22:11:08 [sEVERE] [ForgeModLoader] Error details java.lang.RuntimeException: A download error occured at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:483) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.handleLaunch(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:132) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.setupHome(FMLRelauncher.java:155) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.relaunchApplet(FMLRelauncher.java:242) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.appletEntry(FMLRelauncher.java:212) at net.minecraft.client.MinecraftApplet.init(MinecraftApplet.java:25) at net.minecraft.Launcher.init(Launcher.java:127) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameLauncher.runGame(GameLauncher.java:210) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameUpdater.runGame(GameUpdater.java:136) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginFrame.onEvent(LoginFrame.java:309) at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginWorker.doInBackground(LoginWorker.java:103) at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker$1.call(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(Unknown Source) at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker.run(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(Unknown Source) at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(Unknown Source) at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source) Caused by: java.net.SocketTimeoutException: Read timed out at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance0(Native Method) at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(Unknown Source) at sun.reflect.DelegatingConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(Unknown Source) at java.lang.reflect.Constructor.newInstance(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection$6.run(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection$6.run(Unknown Source) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getChainedException(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getInputStream(Unknown Source) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:467) ... 17 more Caused by: java.net.SocketTimeoutException: Read timed out at java.net.SocketInputStream.socketRead0(Native Method) at java.net.SocketInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at java.net.SocketInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.fill(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.read1(Unknown Source) at java.io.BufferedInputStream.read(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.http.HttpClient.parseHTTPHeader(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.http.HttpClient.parseHTTP(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getInputStream(Unknown Source) at sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getHeaderField(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getHeaderFieldLong(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getContentLengthLong(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLConnection.getContentLength(Unknown Source) at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.downloadFile(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:466) ... 17 more 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: A fatal error occured and FML cannot continue 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.setupHome(FMLRelauncher.java:175) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.relaunchApplet(FMLRelauncher.java:242) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.appletEntry(FMLRelauncher.java:212) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at net.minecraft.client.MinecraftApplet.init(MinecraftApplet.java:25) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at net.minecraft.Launcher.init(Launcher.java:127) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameLauncher.runGame(GameLauncher.java:210) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.spoutcraft.launcher.GameUpdater.runGame(GameUpdater.java:136) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginFrame.onEvent(LoginFrame.java:309) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.spoutcraft.launcher.skin.components.LoginWorker.doInBackground(LoginWorker.java:103) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker$1.call(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask$Sync.innerRun(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at org.jdesktop.swingworker.SwingWorker.run(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: A fatal error occured and FML cannot continue 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.RelaunchLibraryManager.handleLaunch(RelaunchLibraryManager.java:228) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] at cpw.mods.fml.relauncher.FMLRelauncher.setupHome(FMLRelauncher.java:155) 2013-04-23 22:11:45 [iNFO] [sTDERR] ... 15 more 2013-04-23 22:14:41 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Starting download of [url][/url], with 3 tries remaining 2013-04-23 22:14:43 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Starting download of [url][/url], with 3 tries remaining 2013-04-23 22:14:43 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Starting download of [url][/url], with 3 tries remaining 2013-04-23 22:14:43 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Starting download of [url][/url], with 3 tries remaining 2013-04-23 22:14:45 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Starting download of [url][/url], with 3 tries remaining 2013-04-23 22:15:07 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Maximum usable memory detected: 1024 mb 2013-04-23 22:15:41 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Maximum usable memory detected: 1024 mb 2013-04-23 22:15:49 [iNFO] [sTDOUT] Exiting mod pack
Richs_Yard Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 From what I can tell, Java seems to be at work here.
Sarsarmarut Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Hey just thought I'd add my two cents in when I saw that you were having some trouble. The actually error you posted above is a download error, however, as Richs_Yard Says above i had a similar issue because i didn't have the 64 bit version of windows installed correctly. Just for good measure I would uninstall java, and determine if you have a 64 bit operating system. Then if that is indeed the case. Install BOTH the 32 and 64 bit versions of java again. As posted above, the download for Minecraft is independant of your .minecraft folder so that isn't an issue.
SXScarecrow Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 This error is caused by FML not downloading the required libraries. You can either reinstall java, or copy over the library files manually. Download the file below, unzip the folder and place the four .jar files into the lib folder in tekkitlite. lib.zip
tomboy Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 Hey just thought I'd add my two cents in when I saw that you were having some trouble. The actually error you posted above is a download error, however, as Richs_Yard Says above i had a similar issue because i didn't have the 64 bit version of windows installed correctly. Just for good measure I would uninstall java, and determine if you have a 64 bit operating system. Then if that is indeed the case. Install BOTH the 32 and 64 bit versions of java again. As posted above, the download for Minecraft is independant of your .minecraft folder so that isn't an issue. The op. system on the computer is Win XP 32bit incl. the last update.
tomboy Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 This error is caused by FML not downloading the required libraries. You can either reinstall java, or copy over the library files manually. Download the file below, unzip the folder and place the four .jar files into the lib folder in tekkitlite. lib.zip I wil test this at the end of the day, thanks.
tomboy Posted April 24, 2013 Author Posted April 24, 2013 This error is caused by FML not downloading the required libraries. You can either reinstall java, or copy over the library files manually. Download the file below, unzip the folder and place the four .jar files into the lib folder in tekkitlite. lib.zip Thanks, thanks, thanks, my son is very happy because after I copyed the files to the tekkitlite folder, its working good! Thank you very much. Tomboy
Torezu Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Let's play a game. It's called "How Many Rules Can I Break in Separate Posts in One 24-Hour Period?"
Richs_Yard Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 Lets see here... I think I can break a lot in one sitting...
Torezu Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 Be careful what you wish for... That wasn't a wish. The moderators here are more than capable of dropping a lot of kellers/warnings/bans in a very short period.
Richs_Yard Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 Hmm... I wish Santa Torezu would bring me a noob to have fun with...
Death_Blade(Real) Posted July 14, 2013 Posted July 14, 2013 Is it actually possible to because my computer won't open technic launcher and I also don't have a premium Minecraft account to use it or do I use my technic pack website password and user name to login to the technic pack because I have tekkit lite from my friend and want to install it to my Minecraft. Please answer.
Cheap Shot Posted July 18, 2013 Posted July 18, 2013 Is it actually possible to because my computer won't open technic launcher and I also don't have a premium Minecraft account to use it or do I use my technic pack website password and user name to login to the technic pack because I have tekkit lite from my friend and want to install it to my Minecraft. Please answer. No.
Vivacity Posted July 18, 2013 Posted July 18, 2013 Minecraft is worth 1000 times the price. I've spent more time playing minecraft then all the other games I own combined. I don't see it slowing down anytime soon, YouTube still has a strong fan base, devs are updating it, and the molding community can compare to no other.
Cheap Shot Posted July 18, 2013 Posted July 18, 2013 Minecraft is worth 1000 times the price. I've spent more time playing minecraft then all the other games I own combined. I don't see it slowing down anytime soon, YouTube still has a strong fan base, devs are updating it, and the molding community can compare to no other. I don't know if I share your optimism. I'd say it's worth buying if only so you can use the Platform and other things. I really don't think I would ever say the modding community can compare to no other though. As someone who has been a part of it since day one, I can say it has improved quite a lot, but it still has a lot of growing up to do. Not that I'm going to let this turn into a discussion. I'm no derail-er!!!
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