Cheap Shot

That's tough. I had a lot of old DOS games I liked but I don't remember them well enough so I'd probably have to go with Dungeon Keeper. After that probably Fallout 2 and the Baulders Gate games not that I was very good at them. I played the first Unreal Tournament a lot too while listening to the zoolander soundtrack.

I prefer playing SMP because I only like playing with friends. SSP is now awesome too though and Icewolf has done a great job on it.

Questions is in super Alpha. It's being built by Agelian who is busy with a real job. Don't expect too much too fast. We're trying to puzzle out how to make it work properly when 90% of the questions are sub-retarded white noise. Then the other kinks.

Memes that start here are fine until they get beat to death and we double ban them.

Happy ending?

That's fine but from here on out we will not be discussing "legality" in here. That is completely pointless and will just turn into an unintelligent dramafest with no possible resolution. This is not a courtroom. We'll stick to the issues at hand otherwise it'll get ugly and everyone will be mildly stupider for having taken part. No more analogies either please. That being said, I'm not angry, just trying to head off a negative derail. Carry on.

There's no reason to outsource that job. We just need to get to know each other better and open better lines of communication, and I think the modders may even come to like us over time. As for this thread. I've managed to get in short contact with KakerMix but he wont be back from across the country for another week or two. I am not prepared to act on my own any further because I don't have all the information on my own and my technical knowledge is limited (I'm Technics artist primarily) and it's gotten to the point where everyone needs to be able to give input. I won't be able to discuss much anymore until a later date. If the conversation continues I'll stay to moderate and keep the peace, but nothing substantial can happen until then. I'd like to thank people for putting forward their best behaviour in here and showing that the Technic community is a positive one. You've done me proud. As you said slowpoke, the ball is generally in our court so you and of course the modders will have to allow us to get our team together before we play. This discussion is pretty much exhausted and has covered most of what needs to be covered. While we wait for all the technic devs to get together, understand that we've heard the concerns and understand where everyone is coming from. We're very serious about turning over a new leaf and we'll be discussing how we intend to do so. We're not going to make moves without careful consideration of the situation or the expectations of the modders.

Im on an IPad atm. I'm not a fan of the on screen keyboard.

Yeah, that analogy is way too complicated and when anaolgies get complicated they get useless. I don't really wan't to talk about sengir though because that was a long time ago. I don't hate the guy. I never did, no one here did. I remember even when he put that code in and it was found, and a big fight erupted between the users, I was over at MCF trying to get people to calm down and leave Sengir alone and to respect his thread and not shit all over. My posts over there were of course deleted for who knows what reason, but I know Pahimar saw them. It's one of the things we chatted about when I ran into him on IRC. I'm sure he is a nice guy irl. I don't doubt it. You could argue that he did nothing wrong because it was his mod and were were doing bad badguy things etc etc but no matter if you feel we were doing good or bad, he had a problem with us, but he punished the end user instead. He hurt, at that time, about 300-500 thousand people using and enjoying his mod instead of us. Were way againt that so it would be hard to mend that kind of burnt bridge. No more about Sengir though. That is likely never to be resolved and Sengir said himself that everyone should just shut up about it. Forestry discussion isnt required for this thread. Now if youll excuse me, my bluetooth keyboard died on me and Ive had to finish this post via text messaging. Also kaker is still unreachable anyway so Ive got nothing to discuss yet.

Why did you post this bug report twice?

make me co owner. I dont wanna do any work though.

That's good enough for me. Welcome to the forums, glad to have you here. It's 3 am and I need to sleep so forgive me for calling it a night. Everyone else is on vacation, but once I've had a chat with whoever I can find I'll be back. Stay civil thread. Best behaviour.

Yeah he totally is. Common man, that's not going to help anything and I know for a fact no one is going to change coverts mind by asking him sudden and invasive questions. It's bad enough I've got to handle this thread with all these guest stars showing up on my own. edit: Infact I think I'm going to have to tap out for a bit to try and get in touch with Kaker and the rest of the team since I don't want this to keep going without their input. Covert, if that's actually you and not someone making a troll account, then I hope you carry the tone of this thread and are here for a relaxed and civil discussion. Read over the things I've said while I talk to the guys. I know you don't like us currently, or at least Kaker, but I'm quite serious about wanting to get on better terms with the modders. The tenuous "cease fire" situation isn't satisfactory. Anyone picking fights or being agressive and hostile or antagonistic in here will be given a vacation, no matter what "side" you're on. I don't want to wake up to war tomorrow.

You were sucking up to me? When?! Dammit I hardly got any compliments, you can do better then that no fair. Seriously though, If you wan't to leave it off like this then I suppose that's fine. I don't think it's as complicated as all that though. At this particular juncture I think talk is all that's really left. It's just bad water that needs clearing. If it's even possble to clear that water or not I dont know, but I'd like to try.

Oh man, threads going too fast for me to keep up. I was cooking dinner earlier and entertaining guests. One more thing I'd like to add is in regards to this. I do remember the discussion I had with Pahimar. He was a nice guy and it was a very productive chat. I think he thought pretty well of me. I dont understand why people think we've givin up on that though. We never did. We've spent a lot of time since then trying to improve relations and have made a lot of progress. We're still working at it. I'm here right now talking to you aren't it? Things haven't "Gone too far". If anything they've improved quite a bit since. All that's left is for me to become awesome hi five buddies with all the modders and get rid of the hard feelings. Then maybe we could go on to really get some awesome work done. I'd like to be in a place where we could help you out with FTB even.

Woosh, we're giving people a novel to read between the two of us haha. It's for sure easier to get to know someone when you're talking in a more personal setting like IRC. We're a fan of Google+ hangouts too since you get peoples tones and things when you can hear voices. For sure having a transparent convo in public can be good too though. Not often, but somtimes! It gives people something to point at. Dispite this being the Technic forums, this is really the only place we can actually do so though crazy as that sounds. As for Kaker stepping down, that just can't happen and I wouldn't ever want it to. Kaker has put more work into Technic then any reasonable human should be expected to. A year of his personal time, not to mention quite a bit of his own money paying for the majority of all the ever increasing expenses of maintaining Technic. He's responsible for bringing a lot of people together and manages everything we do behind the scenes. It would be completely unresonable to ask him to "step down" from the team he started and shaped through all this for no real reason other then some people who don't really know him don't like him. It would be a lot more resonable just to get to know him. Ironic that I'm the only one home right now though. If the FTB pack isn't meant to be a competitor, then it seems pointlessly redundant when you consider what already exists. Even if you don't like Kaker, there are four other people on the Technic team now and we're all great people. I'd love to get to know the modders better and try to improve relations. An example reason for not wanting to put up a big list of permissions is for one, like you said, some of the modders aren't happy about giving them. If they're only giving us permission begrudgingly, we don't want to throw it back in their faces like big jerks. It's not worth risking upsetting any of them just for the sake of appeasing a few people. Needing proof of permissions is a purely MCForums thing and unless all the modders are on better terms with us I dont personally (me) think there would be any worth in putting that list together. I think an even more productive thing would be to talk to the modders and try and get to know them better. Get on better terms. Like I said, there are four other people involved other then Kaker, and it would be cool if we were given a chance if no one is willing to give Kaker a second one. I'd personally challenge anyone to go out and look for an instance where I'm an unreasonable asshole anywhere. The reward for finding such a post would be a hand drawn avatar and one night of passion. Anyways, you yourself are on good terms with most of the modders who think negatively about us. You seem like a nice guy and pretty resonable. There's no reason we can't make a start of improving things, and it'd save you a lot of work. I'd like to see a senario where we're on much better terms with the modders and we can work with them. There's no reason beyond old grudges not to. It would be the best thing for the community as a whole instead of having things divided. You're on good terms with a lot of the modders so if you would be willing, it would be a lot easier with your help. I can't speak for the rest right now, I'm totally rogue right now!!!, but I'd apprecaite it quite a bit.

I'm going to try to be optimistic. I'm speaking for myself here but I probably speak for everyone on the team when I say all we want is to make Minecraft more fun. Drama may be fun to some people, actually it can be fun for us sometimes too I won't lie, sometimes there's some pretty hilarious stuff. All in all though, I'd like to see an end to the ill will toward us. We're only trying to do good things and despite the trollish sense of humor of KakerMix, he and we are all very nice and reasonable people. Once Technic took off on us, we decided to make the best of a less then positive situation and fill a hole in the community. No matter how you feel about Technic, it has changed the modding community drastically for the better. Maybe I can start by discussing how Techinc got started. There seems to be some confusion. When we say that there was not point in getting permissions before the yogscast popularity boost and you call bullshit, let me explain. There literally was no reason. It wasn't a public mod pack. It wasn't even really a mod pack. The only thing that made it even close to an official modpack is all the art and branding I supplied after the sudden exposure. It started out as KakerMix deciding to combine a bunch of mods together to play. He hosted a private server and I and some other friends played on it. It was only a pack in the sense that we couldn't figure out how he'd managed to get everything working so he just did the work for us. Of course we were all members of Something Awful, and when Kaker shared how fun it was to play these mods together in a thread there, a few people asked if he could share the "pack" with them so they could play with it on their private servers as well. It was just a small community thing at that point, not even worth bothering modders over, because really, why would he? He wasn't intending to make a website and start offering it to the public. He was just helping out the people from the SA community who couldn't do it on their own. The Yogscast are part of the something awful community. YOGS literally stands for "Ye Olde Goon Squad", the World of Warcraft something awful guild. We didn't know what hit us once they featured it as a "pack". Not that we're angry at them. They're alright and without them, all the positive things we've been able to do for people wouldn't have got their start. Hell, the controversy and drama of it all is probably responsible for Technics reach and popularity more then anything if I'm to be honest. We would very much like to have had a "proper start" with permissions and working together with the modders, but it wasn't in the stars. After that, the attitude of the modders toward Technic was so venomous that Kaker threw up his hands and said "fine" and just let people hate on him. He was more interested in supplying support and building a community for the people who were enjoying Technic after the yogscast explosion. He also didn't like the way the community was, and continued on the belief that it needed to change. I agreed. Compared to other games modding communities, minecrafts was disgraceful. An unproductive, isolationist and very hostile one. There was no open forum for exchanging ideas, or working together to make something cooler and bigger and better. It just didn't exist. We operated without permissions for so long only because we never really got a chance to operate the way we wanted to, and we were interested in changing the way the community worked. Now, after all the work we've put in and a significant amount of time has passed, people have calmed down a little, and things are much better. Modders are working together more often and things like bridge mods or mods that add to others have sprung up and stitched things together. Mainly, a lot of modders are willing to listen to us, even if they don't like us. We're trying to turn over a new leaf and do things in a way that will make everyone happy instead of just the end users. You are free to make your own pack. You have just as much right to do so as anyone, especially if the modders want you to. Do understand that there are a lot more factors involved then just permissions you have to consider when putting together a modpack. As vets of the topic we're aware of just how complicated it is, and how complicated it can get. We have the infrastructure, playerbase reach, and community support that took over a year to build properly, not to mention how much money and labor was involved from all of us (a lot). Have you seen our website? It's amazing and I'm very proud of it. We'd much prefer to be given a second chance by the modders then to scrap everything that's been built and have someone else start over from scratch. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise, and as adults I think it should be more then possible. We're good people. Yes even KakerMix. I live in a different country from him, but we hang out nearly every day online. I consider him a good friend, and I'm a pretty good judge of character. His heart is way in the right place. If you can't give him a chance, hopefully I've proven myself to be a good person and reasonable, and let me vouch for him. If he was as awful as people make him out to be, there's no way I or anyone else would have devoted so much time, work and money to helping him with all this. :P

Before I even begin to chat with Slowpoke here however I'd like to take a moment to pick apart this following post. It caught my eye as I was reading through and it's particularly hostile and unproductive. I'd almost think you were trolling andromeida but I've seen the same sort of posts on other forums and I want you to know that wont fly here. This is the kind of post you make when you know people with a differing opining aren't allowed to properly respond. Really now, this is no way to post in a discussion. First off, reading the rest of your post I have a hard time accepting that you are a "neutral bystander" but ok, lets continue. My reading through this thread, I have not noticed this at all. Yes I agree, Slowpoke has been very civil and good about responding to people with differing viewpoints. I resent and reject your negative blanket assertions however. This thread has been full of different opinions and with few exceptions people have been reasonable and open. There is of course going to roughly be two sides, but that's unavoidable. Your statements are unfounded and unreasonable. Everything is already free, just not easy. This situation is not at all comparable to torrenting for profit works. Making such comparisons is useless and isn't going to lead anywhere productive. Who's decided this? Not us. We don't feel we've "stolen" anything. We mirror free downloads in an effort to make them more accessible and available to a much wider audience. We make every effort to claim no ownership or take no credit for any work that isn't ours, the very opposite. We do everything in our power to educate people about the mods and promote the authors. Saying we don't care about mod authors at all is ridiculous. Just go take a look at our main site. We put their mods in the pack because we love their work, and want to give them more popularity and recognition, not steal it. We aren't throwing in a bunch of mods just to stick it to authors or for any malicious reason. If we didn't care about them, these forums wouldn't exist, since we created them just to help ease concerns they had over the influx of Technic users they had to provide support for. We listened and did what we could. That's not what people who don't care do. And to address this: What do you base this on? This is 100% just speculation and "Technic is evil" bandwagoning. No one has ever come to us and asked to be taken out of Technic. Not even Sengir ever did. We decided to remove the mod once we discovered the malicious code to protect the end user and to try to head off a situation that was clearly bubbling under the surface. We would have preferred to discuss it as Forestry is a great mod that we love, and we didn't want to have to deprive people of it over what should have been personal grievances. That's a whole other bag of bees though and I'll discuss permissions and asking for permissions before or after the fact later with Slowpoke. For now just understand we've never come out and said "fuck the modders". That's just something people have decided we say while wringing our hands and slitting puppy throats. I'm not naive enough to think that all the modders love us, or are buddy buddy. They aren't. Of course they aren't. Some are, but for the most part we've gotten permissions because they've come to understand that Technic is a good thing despite how they feel about KakerMix or the Technic team in general. Even if they haven't decided Technic is a good thing, they understand how intensely popular it is and that it benefits them. To the point where the modders that applies to have settled on a state of "tolerance" of their mod being included. That's good enough for us for now. We've got time to change peoples minds about us and it means the end user can keep enjoying themselves without being negatively effected by personal squabbles. That's what's most important to us. Who are you talking to in this situation? Me? The Technic team as a whole? Random user 445? Are you just taking anything negative or unhelpful any random person has said and lumping it all together into a kind of franken Technic dev? You're just generalizing and you are basing opinions on 100% assumed or selective information. You've gotten throughout your post, to a point where you're acting so hostile we can forget about your claims of being neutral. Anyone can click that link and see that you're trying to put that post in a different light by taking it out of context. There is not a thing wrong with that he said there. Anyone should be able to see where he's coming from. He's trying to explain his position and people in there are insulting him outright and refusing to even listen. The hostility could be cut with a knife. He's facing a giant bandwagon that refuses to stop to hear him out so it's no wonder he "has a hard time giving the community a chance". The community has had a hard time giving him a chance if at all. He's actually an incredibly patient person. Anyways, I'd like this thread to stay a productive discussion. Please leave the needless hostility behind when coming to post on my forums. I will not tolerate for long, people who do their best to frame things in negative light and "prove their point" rather then keeping an open mind. That goes for everyone in here, no matter your side. I want things to remain fair and reasonable. No lashing out or insulting. I'm going to probably personally enforce a little harder this thread from here on out to make sure people stay productive, and I am very confident that I can do so without bias so fair warning no matter what "side" you're on.

No I've been catching up. I'm in pretty rough shape today so im running a bit slower then usual. I don't usually drink very much but it was a birthday and karaoke was involved. I'll do what I can to give my input. Kaker is on the other side the the country then he usually is for a few weeks so it'll probably just be me. Hope you don't mind slowpoke. The authors aren't the people we would be appeasing with a list. Most of the people so far who have been demanding a list of permissions have been giving off that "Where's the birth certificate Obama!" vibe. Slowpoke has been a breath of fresh air. While he of course has a bias and probably doesn't like us off the bat, he's making the effort to control it while he's here and that's nice to see. You can really tell by a persons posts when they are unreachable. We get our fair share of people pretending they're here to "get the truth" or "hear the other side" but it's usually pretty clear they wan't nothing of the sort. I can tell you're not one of those people so I'll so what I can to discuss it with you. There has already been a significant amount of ground covered so I'm not sure where to start.

Sorry Slowpoke, there has been a definate lack of Technic Devs reposnding to you but I'm glad to see the thread has stayed a discussion. We work hard to try and keep a bit of oder of these forums and discourge lashing out and bandwaggoning. I'll try to respond to you if I can. Most of the other Technic devs are on vacation so you came knocking when the house was more or less empty. Gonna try and catch up on whats been said. Unless you're talking with someone with a red name, take it with a grain of salt. I'm recovering from party mode haha ouch. Also if it means anything to you, we all think jakj is a buffoon too.

I'm not sure why you can't. None of the modders in the pack are asking for the mods to be removed. He honestly doesn't need to prove anything because that's 100% between him (or us) and the modders. We have permissions now but we're not going to jump through hoops for anyone because honestly there are people who will never be satisfied. I still don't understand why everyone thinks they need to fight battles for modders who have never tried to rally the troops. The modders as far as I know are all adults, and so are we, and adults can handle things on their own. And have infact. We've had many private discussions with modders and things are much more satisfactory now. If you don't want to use technic to make your life easier, It sounds like the only thing in the way still is needless hostility. You are very welcome to use Technic. It's not worth it to keep holding other peoples grudges.

I literally laughed out loud. Made my day thank you.

It's ok though, happy ending.

Nope. If he was really intending to clear up misconceptions, we would be a vital stop to make. He can dig up as much old forum drama as he wants but we're way legit now. You could say we're "turning a new leaf" but we've always actually been nice and reasonable people. We've just spent a little more time recently talking to modders directly so that they can see that. Mainly because after a lot of effort on our part and time for the community to settle down, we aren't turned away outright anymore when trying to contact people. It's easy to point a finger at us and go "They didn't have permissions! Evil! They should have tried harder!" but you don't really understand our position for a while. We couldn't even ask without getting the text equivalent of getting spit on. All because the pack took off when we were just intending to keep it a small thing inside a community. It didn't take long for people to start burning our effigies. After that the atmosphere was so toxic we couldn't sneeze without modders scowling and fanatics calling for our blood. So many people wanted technic though that we felt personally the ends justified the means for the time being. We still feel that because of how much good Technic has done for modding community in general. Now that we've worked so hard to make Technic really impressive, and the community has finally calmed down and the majority of modders have relaxed toward us, we can finally come out of our bomb shelters and do things a bit more professionally. Maybe he can quote this post if he doesn't want to talk to us before "clearing up misconceptions".

You what?