(biased opinions) The Destruction of American Ideology and Culture

[uranium2011]

In my opinion, American doctrine and culture is starting to crumble due to many factors including immigration, technology, etc. In the past few years, America has been just collapsing at an alarming rate. American music and culture has been reduced to dub-step, hip-hop, and rap, genres of "music" hardly deserving such a title. Since the 1950's, the melting pot theory has been mostly detrimental to the American ideology. Before rock, America was actually a center of good music, unaltered music, pleasing music. People listened to Tin Pan Alley songs, jazz, and classic music, mostly music give a shrug. We are also losing our culture ideals of the family, freedom, and moral reasoning. Our political reasoning too is being torn to the ground. We are becoming a communist country, and a country ignoring our Founding Fathers and Constitution. We were a country built on free enterprise, aspiration, little government regulation. Now, we are a country built on high taxes, outsourced business, and an anti-small business government. Extremely frightening is the 600,000 illegal immigrants that Obama gave amnesty to last week, without congressional voting. We are piling up debt faster then you can imagine.Our education system is even more frightening and the American youth is becoming ever more lazy. Americans are also becoming immoral, even American officials are becoming more involved in various sex scandles. In addition, technology is speeding up our descent into a back water, nonindustrial, lazy country. Technology is great, however we are becoming over-reliant on said technology. We were not meant as a species to be wearing augmented reality glasses, and implanted chips inserted into our body. We must become a country as great as it was 100 years ago. Now, we are a shell of our former selves. We must rally against communism, socialism, and bring back the American spirit, the spirit of business, innovation, and freedom!

P.S. I am not responsible for any flak that is put up over this extremely short 30 minute lecture I typed up. This is the what America is, not the sugarcoated facts told to you by the media.

[Neowulf]

Politics...

I'mma guess 5 posts max before this thread has to be shut down.

[Jay?]

Actually, almost everything you've mentioned is way off. The amnesty plan is only for immigrants under the age of 30 who were brought to the US before they were 16 years old, have lived here for at least five continuous years, have no criminal record and either are now attending high school, graduated from high school, earned a GED or served in the military.

That's a net gain for the U.S. That's less money spent deporting productive people.

Classical music has been enjoying a resurgence on an incredible scale, and there's nothing wrong with rap, hiphop, dubstep, or in fact, any of the newer genres of music. The purpose of music is to be shared and enjoyed, so the fact that you dont enjoy them doesn't speak to their quality, so long as other people enjoy them. Your use of the term "unaltered music" tells me that you don't understand the skills necessary to create good computer generated music. Music is a collection of sounds, arranged in a fashion so as to express a message or be compelling.

Americans are also becoming immoral, even American officials are becoming more involved in various sex scandles.

That's just dumb. It isn't new, it isnt just a U.S. thing, and sex isnt bad.

Technology is great, however we are becoming over-reliant on said technology. We were not meant as a species to be wearing augmented reality glasses, and implanted chips inserted into our body. We must become a country as great as it was 100 years ago.

By all means, you are welcome to give up modern medicine, comfortable life, and go live in the woods. Your argument that we should regress back to a time when the average life expectancy was in the 40s is downright silly.

Our political reasoning too is being torn to the ground. We are becoming a communist country, and a country ignoring our Founding Fathers and Constitution. We were a country built on free enterprise, aspiration, little government regulation. Now, we are a country built on high taxes, outsourced business, and an anti-small business government.

you don't know what communism is do you?

Completely free enterprise doesn't work on such a large scale. Regulations are absolutely necessary, because the lack of regulations breeds poverty and hostility towards small buisiness. An unregulated market provides the largest group to overpower smaller groups, and run them into the ground in the pursuit of profit.

Our education system is even more frightening and the American youth is becoming ever more lazy.

You can blame No Child Left Behind for that. We're teaching to the lowest common denominator, and we're teaching to a dry, empty standard, rather than engaging kids and generating curiosity.

Basically, go back to your porch, yell at the children to get off your lawn, and come back when you have sources for me to refute.

[sct]

Jay? literally put my thoughts into words better than I could have ever done. You sound like a complete idiot. "Before ROCK RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!"

ugh. :frogout:

[uranium2011]

Actually, almost everything you've mentioned is way off. The amnesty plan is only for immigrants under the age of 30 who were brought to the US before they were 16 years old, have lived here for at least five continuous years, have no criminal record and either are now attending high school, graduated from high school, earned a GED or served in the military.

That's a net gain for the U.S. That's less money spent deporting productive people.

Classical music has been enjoying a resurgence on an incredible scale, and there's nothing wrong with rap, hiphop, dubstep, or in fact, any of the newer genres of music. The purpose of music is to be shared and enjoyed, so the fact that you dont enjoy them doesn't speak to their quality, so long as other people enjoy them. Your use of the term "unaltered music" tells me that you don't understand the skills necessary to create good computer generated music. Music is a collection of sounds, arranged in a fashion so as to express a message or be compelling.

That's just dumb. It isn't new, it isnt just a U.S. thing, and sex isnt bad.

By all means, you are welcome to give up modern medicine, comfortable life, and go live in the woods. Your argument that we should regress back to a time when the average life expectancy was in the 40s is downright silly.

you don't know what communism is do you?

Completely free enterprise doesn't work on such a large scale. Regulations are absolutely necessary, because the lack of regulations breeds poverty and hostility towards small buisiness. An unregulated market provides the largest group to overpower smaller groups, and run them into the ground in the pursuit of profit.

You can blame No Child Left Behind for that. We're teaching to the lowest common denominator, and we're teaching to a dry, empty standard, rather than engaging kids and generating curiosity.

Basically, go back to your porch, yell at the children to get off your lawn, and come back when you have sources for me to refute.

First off, my point is that Obama granted amnesty to those illegals without congressional consent, which i believe is against the tenth amendment. It is mostly a scheme that he believes will help get him votes in the election.

Second off, it isn't music in the traditional sense, you need absolutely no talent in actual singing or the ability to create music.

Third off, sex isn't a bad thing, but to have sex with two people in a short period of time is frankly bad, especially when it comes to the leader of a country (Clinton).

Fourth off, when I say technology can be bad, technology is easily abused. The government loves to have prying eyes into people's lives, people are making the internet a third leg for knowledge, and it is used as a substitute for natural talent.

Fifth off, communism is state control of businesses, which as I stated has not happened yet, but it is happening. It starts with high taxes, regulations, and socialism. Socialism is basically the idea of distributing the wealth. Now where does that come to mind cough*healthcare bill*cough.

Sixth off, that is the great thing about laissez-faire. Those who fall are there because they put themselves there, but those who work are rewarded. Thats thing about the American Dream, a man can make it if he works hard enough. And if you mention the New Deal, the new Deal did not help America, it was the need for industry to fight in WWII that brought us out of the great depression. We survived for 150 years in a little regulated state of business. And the only reason the Great Depression started was because the government tinkered with the mint.

And finally, your point on NCLB actually disproves your whole argument. It was started because of government REGULATION, this whole arguments links back to the government and how they should not get involved in American's every day life.

[uranium2011]

Jay? literally put my thoughts into words better than I could have ever done. You sound like a complete idiot. "Before ROCK RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!"

ugh.

That's not my point of the argument, America is beginning to crumble, and culture is one of the first things beginning to fall. The last 50 years has turned America on its head.

[Jay?]

First off, my point is that Obama granted amnesty to those illegals without congressional consent, which i believe is against the tenth amendment. It is mostly a scheme that he believes will help get him votes in the election.

Immigration, being a federal responsibility, is not subject to the tenth amendment, which says that states retain any rights not reserved by the federal government.

Second off, it isn't music in the traditional sense, you need absolutely no talent in actual singing or the ability to create music.

Again, you seem to not understand what music is, or the amount of talent it requires. Music doesn't require skill with an instrument, vocal ability, or tradition. It requires Rhythm, Harmony, and Melody.

Third off, sex isn't a bad thing, but to have sex with two people in a short period of time is frankly bad, especially when it comes to the leader of a country (Clinton).

Not really. sex outside of a committed monogomous relationship, without consent, is bad, but not because of sex. That has more to do with trust.

Fourth off, when I say technology can be bad, technology is easily abused. The government loves to have prying eyes into people's lives, people are making the internet a third leg for knowledge, and it is used as a substitute for natural talent.

Paranoia isn't a valid argument against reliance on technology. And again, you seem to think that nothing technological requires talent.

Fifth off, communism is state control of businesses, which as I stated has not happened yet, but it is happening. It starts with high taxes, regulations, and socialism. Socialism is basically the idea of distributing the wealth. Now where does that come to mind cough*healthcare bill*cough.

Communism: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Socialism: From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution.

Sixth off, that is the great thing about laissez-faire. Those who fall are there because they put themselves there, but those who work are rewarded. Thats thing about the American Dream, a man can make it if he works hard enough. And if you mention the New Deal, the new Deal did not help America, it was the need for industry to fight in WWII that brought us out of the great depression. We survived for 150 years in a little regulated state of business. And the only reason the Great Depression started was because the government tinkered with the mint.

The american dream is a sham.The self made man does not exist.

We survived in a sparsely regulated state of business because the means of production, shipping, and selling were primitive, and a reasonable financial investment could give you enough of a hold to make a respectable business. Now that we have vast megacorporations that can spend 2 million dollars on putting a single location out of buisiness, just so that they can have less competition in the area means that stricter protections are necessary.

And finally, your point on NCLB actually disproves your whole argument. It was started because of government REGULATION, this whole arguments links back to the government and how they should not get involved in American's every day life.

No, try again, criticism of one government policy does not disprove the idea that regulations are a necessary function.

[Industrial Miner]

Politics, I will never understand them. Never.

[uranium2011]

My point is is that OBAMA GAVE IMMUNITY TO ILLEGALS WITHOUT CONGRESS VOTING ON IT (keyword without congress).

Again, my point is that American culture is almost non-existent. Again there is a keyword in my statement, NATURAL talent. Singing is natural, typing code into a computer is not.

At this point, its not paranoia, the government has abused technology by tracking people, wiretapping them, and such. Only recently did it become illegal to track someone without a warrant.

Regulation is not the answer. Another point of my argument is that America's industries are almost nil because of government regulations. Had the government not impose taxes and regulations on the government had caused most industries to leave to China.

The self made man is not a sham. Steve Jobs, up until a few years ago, had been CEO of a small company known as apple. Then they had the guts and the brains and went up against Microsoft. Your point is invalid.

Socialism-A theory or system of

social organization that advocatesthe vesting of the ownership and control of the means ofproduction and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in thecommunity as a whole.

Communism- (often initial capital letter )

a system of social organization in

which

all economic and social activity is controlled by atotalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

[Jay?]

My point is is that OBAMA GAVE IMMUNITY TO ILLEGALS WITHOUT CONGRESS VOTING ON IT (keyword without congress).

At this point, its not paranoia, the government has abused technology by tracking people, wiretapping them, and such. Only recently did it become illegal to track someone without a warrant.

On further investigation, the only article i can find with any citations that is not also published by a conservative opinion column, states that the "amnesty" plan violates article 1, section 8 of the constitution, which states that congress shall have the power to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization. However, the obama plan doesn't lead to naturalization, it's just deferred action, to be judged again every two years.

As a note, i find it interesting that you argue against government interference with american life, but then note that it "only recently became illegal to track someone without a warrant"

Regulation is not the answer. Another point of my argument is that America's industries are almost nil because of government regulations. Had the government not impose taxes and regulations on the government had caused most industries to leave to China.

The self made man is not a sham. Steve Jobs, up until a few years ago, had been CEO of a small company known as apple. Then they had the guts and the brains and went up against Microsoft. Your point is invalid.

Actually, companies moved their operations to china because in china, people will work twelve hour days, 7 day weeks, for a few dollars a day. Again, if you really want to reject those protections, go somewhere where your wellbeing is secondary to your employers. Like china.

Steve Jobs is one man, and most certainly did not start out poor. Neither did Bill Gates. They both invented something, and found someone to buy it. Nobody who lacks technological knowledge has that opportunity, and so those people need the protection of the law.

Socialism-A theory or system of social organization that advocatesthe vesting of the ownership and control of the means ofproduction and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in thecommunity as a whole.

Communism- (often initial capital letter )

a system of social organization in

which

all economic and social activity is controlled by atotalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

Nice definition.com skillz, but we are so far from either of those things it's not even funny.

Again, my point is that American culture is almost non-existent. Again there is a keyword in my statement, NATURAL talent. Singing is natural, typing code into a computer is not.

Talent isn't natural, do you know any singers? Ask them how long it took them to develope that talent. Same with any instrumentalists. Also, you don't CODE music. you take samples of sounds and arrange them, one tiny piece at a time, manually changing pitch, length, and speed. Now ask someone who does that for a living how long it took them to develope the talent to do that well.

You seem to be laboring under the idea that nothing that you use a computer for is valid and worthwhile. Welcome to the 21st century, computers are tools in the same way that a guitar is. You tell it what to do and it does it, the quality of the result is how good you are at telling it what to do.

Music doesn't have to lack computers to be music, it has to have Rhythm, Harmony, and Melody.

[uranium2011]

You don't seem to grasp my point, he made that order without going thorugh congress, which no matter how constitutional the whole bill is, it still is unconstitutional because he didn't go through congress and have a vote on it.

But a second reason to outsource businesses would be because the USA has some of the highest corperate tax rates in the world. Businesses don't like paying 10% of their profits to big brother. In addition, China has practically no labor laws (citation needed), and is sort of a grey country. They sometimes seem communist, but in actuality, they almost seem to be more laissez-faire then anything else. Again, they left because of heavy regulations, unions, and high tax rates.

But that's a part of the American Dream, they became successful because they were hard working, ingenious, and innovative, traits lacking in today's youth. They invented something. Do you think Thomas Edison was rich? He sold newspapers on a train as a job, and did poorly in school. Yet, he pulled out, and invented machines. He got were he was because he took initiative. All those Europeans immigrants didn't give up everything and moved across a whole ocean because of pretty beaches and sunshine. They came because they saw a hope, a dream, a new beginning.

Yes, forgive my poor copy and paste skills, but I needed to pull out some definitions, and well they glitched out. Actually, we are close. Tell me about the railroads, airlines, insurance, bank, and pharmaceutical companies that are put under constant stress by the government. Now they are trying to control Apple by trying to limit the iPads sold.

That's irreverent to the topic at hand. This is not an argument of how is music made, its an argument between liberal and conservative. And yes, there is such a thing as natural talent. If that weren't the case, everyone would go about their lives as singers or something along those lines. Some people have a better aptitude towards certain skill and mindsets.

P.S. Read Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Animal Farm. Those are good books on governmental control, and how they can lead to sub par conditions.

[KakerMix]

Obama/Bush is literally Hitler/Stalin. This country was great before rock/rap and before blacks/Mexicans came here. Things were better before everything was made in Japan/China, and before woman/gays could serve in the military.

------------------------

America is going to be so gay and colorful, I can't wait. Going to be men kissing men, women living with other women raising well-adjusted children that function completely normally. People are going to be radically altering the way their bodies look and function (I'm thinking wild shit like iridescent skin colors, neon 'hair', featureless eyes) and the rest of reality will continue to have a radically liberal bias, because that's exactly what reality does, otherwise we'd never advance.

uranium2011, morals don't exist. They are simply ruts that whatever society you happen to exist in at the time instills. Polygamy, incest, rape, subjugation and horrible things done to children were totally cool and normal in human history. Morals can't really exist if you keep shuffling the goal post around every hundred years, stopping and going

"Ok ok, NOW this is how we should live as a society, promise!" because you are just doing yourself a disservice and short changing humanity the next time that post gets shifted.

There is no American Dream™, there never has been. It will also never exist.

Why don't you ask some Irish immigrants in 1912 how America treated them, or heck ask previous Catholics what life was like for them, with their wicked ways of living. "All those Europeans immigrants" weren't wanted when they came before, and faced the exact same bullshit that immigrants face now. In another 100 years, when we're a bit browner as a people, we are going to look back on this point in human history and go

"What the hell was wrong with them"

because that's what humanity has always done.

P.S. read some books

[Cheap Shot]

You don't seem to grasp my point, he made that order without going thorugh congress, which no matter how constitutional the whole bill is, it still is unconstitutional because he didn't go through congress and have a vote on it.

But a second reason to outsource businesses would be because the USA has some of the highest corperate tax rates in the world. Businesses don't like paying 10% of their profits to big brother. In addition, China has practically no labor laws (citation needed), and is sort of a grey country. They sometimes seem communist, but in actuality, they almost seem to be more laissez-faire then anything else. Again, they left because of heavy regulations, unions, and high tax rates. Taxes is a concept much much older then 100 years.

But that's a part of the American Dream, they became successful because they were hard working, ingenious, and innovative, traits lacking in today's youth. They invented something. Do you think Thomas Edison was rich? He sold newspapers on a train as a job, and did poorly in school. Yet, he pulled out, and invented machines. He got were he was because he took initiative. All those Europeans immigrants didn't give up everything and moved across a whole ocean because of pretty beaches and sunshine. They came because they saw a hope, a dream, a new beginning.

Yes, forgive my poor copy and paste skills, but I needed to pull out some definitions, and well they glitched out. Actually, we are close. Tell me about the railroads, airlines, insurance, bank, and pharmaceutical companies that are put under constant stress by the government. Now they are trying to control Apple by trying to limit the iPads sold.

That's irreverent to the topic at hand. This is not an argument of how is music made, its an argument between liberal and conservative. And yes, there is such a thing as natural talent. If that weren't the case, everyone would go about their lives as singers or something along those lines. Some people have a better aptitude towards certain skill and mindsets.

P.S. Read Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Animal Farm. Those are good books on governmental control, and how they can lead to sub par conditions.

At this point, Jay has slapped your argument around so hard you're just rehashing the same uninformed nonsense and tuning her out. Most of your views seem to be completely black and white uneducated notions inspired by what you see in movies and read in opinion blogs. You don't actually have any real understanding. You can't even provide citation for your own allegations.

You say things are the way they are because of "x" but why? Why "x"? Where is your proof? Where is your proof that business move their production to China because of heavy regulations, unions and taxes? And if they do, what does that say? Those regulations are there to protect people from being worked to death or paid unfairly for their time and efforts like in China. Those unions are there to provide support to those workers so they can feel safe and secure in their employment and not worry about losing their job unfairly, and to have people to back them when a large corporation steps on them. And lastly those taxes pay for all the little things you don't even consider or appreciate that the government takes care of for you. All governments have taxes. They're much worse here in Canada.

So what would your proposed solution be? Lower taxes, abolish unions, and and cut back regulations? Well now in this situation, American workers have it even rougher and people are still taking their manufacturing to China because we can never undercut their operation costs here in America because we literally value human life more. It brutal but its what happens when a country has over a billion people. The only way to stop businesses from exploiting that, is to get rid of those unions, regulations, and taxes all together, and great, now you're China.

Which is interesting because China is technically communist so perhaps you haven't thought your argument all the way though after all.

Instead of going down the list of "liberal and conservative" bullet points and picking a "side", do yourself a favor and get educated and experience the world. No "side" is completely right. The world isn't split into right and wrong like that, and you're doing yourself and everyone a disservice by blindly adopting whatever viewpoints a political group tells you to adopt. Instead you should just be thinking about whats best for humanity in general and going by that.

[Jay?]

You don't seem to grasp my point, he made that order without going thorugh congress, which no matter how constitutional the whole bill is, it still is unconstitutional because he didn't go through congress and have a vote on it.

Actually, no, he didn't have to get congress to vote on it, because the deferred action IS a power the president has a right to legally.

But a second reason to outsource businesses would be because the USA has some of the highest corperate tax rates in the world. Businesses don't like paying 10% of their profits to big brother. In addition, China has practically no labor laws (citation needed), and is sort of a grey country. They sometimes seem communist, but in actuality, they almost seem to be more laissez-faire then anything else. Again, they left because of heavy regulations, unions, and high tax rates.

China IS actually very loose in controlling their businesses, which makes the country wealthier, but the people significantly poorer.

But that's a part of the American Dream, they became successful because they were hard working, ingenious, and innovative, traits lacking in today's youth. They invented something. Do you think Thomas Edison was rich? He sold newspapers on a train as a job, and did poorly in school. Yet, he pulled out, and invented machines. He got were he was because he took initiative. All those Europeans immigrants didn't give up everything and moved across a whole ocean because of pretty beaches and sunshine. They came because they saw a hope, a dream, a new beginning.

Actually, Edison wasn't an inventor, he was a ceo. His "inventions" were all things that already existed, he just told people how they could be applied in practice. He offered Nikola Tesla the modern equivalent of $1 million to figure out how to make lightbulbs work, and when tesla did it, and asked for his check, Edison said that he had only been joking, then went off to sell his new patent. Also his power stations? those were all DC (direct current) and completely impractical. It was Teslas' discovery of Alternating Current that was the big breakthrough.

Yes, forgive my poor copy and paste skills, but I needed to pull out some definitions, and well they glitched out. Actually, we are close. Tell me about the railroads, airlines, insurance, bank, and pharmaceutical companies that are put under constant stress by the government. Now they are trying to control Apple by trying to limit the iPads sold.

Stress by the government? the government PAYS for those things. The railroad industry in particular hasnt made a profit in 6 years at the very least. Every year, a huge chunk of government money goes to keeping railroads open, usable, and in good repair, because almost anything that's transported by train, can be more cheaply hauled in some other way.

Speaking of Insurance companies, you want a shark to blame for the blood in the water, THERE's a shark for you. Were you aware that the insured cost for procedures is typically ten times that of the uninsured cost? (here's the part where you say

That's irreverent to the topic at hand. This is not an argument of how is music made, its an argument between liberal and conservative. And yes, there is such a thing as natural talent. If that weren't the case, everyone would go about their lives as singers or something along those lines. Some people have a better aptitude towards certain skill and mindsets.

That's interesting, since the argument of music was one of the first you made, and one of the first I addressed. And no, there isn't such a thing as natural talent. Only hard work, and acting like musicians who use a computer aren't musicians because they don't use a physical instrument is not only absurd, it's offensive.

Also, while you seem to have decided that this is an argument between liberal and conservative, it isn't. I'm arguing against your logical fallacies and your idea that a lack of controls would bring about positive conditions.

P.S. Read Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Animal Farm. Those are good books on governmental control, and how they can lead to sub par conditions.

I have, but considering that Animal farm Is anticommunist (and pro socialist, in case you missed the beginning of the book), and Fahrenheit 451 is ostensibly about the television discouraging literature (and speculatively about the suppression if ideas)

[Cheap Shot]

People told me I had natural talent as a child when it came to art and music. Lets see where I would be now if I had decided that was all that was needed. I'd be drawing and making music like sloppy idiot because I'd still be drawing like when I was 6. I am good at these things now because I dedicate my life to improving. "Talent" is just another word for "potential" in these cases. It takes a ridiculous amount of work to make anything of it.

[uranium2011]

At this point, all I can say is, if we are becoming a species of immoral, lazy people who don't believe in hard work, we are going to go nowhere. Sometimes you have to take a few hits, but you have to get up and keep moving. America was built on freedom, aspiration, and hope. That money isn't going anywhere too useful. The US government is horrible at allocating resources succsefully, and waste them on needed projects. We simply can not have the government control our every move. I might just be a nostalgic freak, but what happened 100 years ago is what was the foundation for America. Before the regulations, we had Alexander Bell, a Scottish immigrant, Thomas Edison, the son of an immigrant, they had the hope to move humanity on no matter the costs. They dedicated their lives to furthering America. They did not have much money, yet they did it. That just shows that there is such a thing as the American Dream. The American Dream exists as stated in the Declaration of Independence. I will let the founding fathers prove my point.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Here is a Jewish-German outlook on the American Dream.

”The German emigrant comes into a country free from the despotism, privileged orders and monopolies, intolerable taxes, and constraints in matters of belief and conscience. Everyone can travel and settle wherever he pleases. No passport is demanded, no police mingles in his affairs or hinders his movements....Fidelity and merit are the only sources of honor here. The rich stand on the same footing as the poor; the scholar is not a mug above the most humble mechanics; no German ought to be ashamed to pursue any occupation....[in America] wealth and possession of real estate confer not the least political right on its owner above what the poorest citizen has. Nor are there nobility, privileged orders, or standing armies to weaken the physical and moral power of the people, nor are there swarms of public functionaries to devour in idleness credit for. Above all, there are no princes and corrupt courts representing the so-called divine 'right of birth.' In such a country the talents, energy and perseverance of a person...have far greater opportunity to display than in monarchies."

But there has been also the American dream, that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with opportunity for each according to his ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.

By the way, you should read more.

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-Constitution-American-Liberty/dp/0307405753

The Constitution and Declaration of Independence are also a good place to start. I dont think those are opinion blogs.

The Epic of America is also good.

[Jay?]

It's odd that you assume anyone who disagrees with you is just ill read.

But anyway, now that you've made that final leap from trying to vaguely provide things that might be counterpoints to my arguments, to trying to use emotional appeals and insults to intelligence to make your point, i feel that it's time to wrap this thread up.

Show's over folks, go home, and throw the popcorn bags in the recycling on the way out.

[Cheap Shot]

Edit: Looks like you more or less agree this is going nowhere eh? /\

You honestly aren't even listening to anyone are you. Unless you start responding to Jays logical and informed arguments with actual fact and logic this wont go anywhere and I might as well shut this thread down. I mean regardless if you're a troll or just a glazed over political sheep rehashing the same popular ignorant hot topics, you're terribly ineffectual and useless. I would like to see some actual discussion here rather then just you spouting things and Jay explaining in detail why they are inaccurate or wrong, and then you ignoring her to post more. I see you're even back to talking about Edison. Or you know just keep telling her to read various things and thinking it somehow proves a point.

Unless it says somewhere in the US constitution "Uranium2011's views on internet forums are correct and true and let no American call them to question." If you point out that line I'll gladly print out this whole post and eat it.

[KakerMix]

Things I have (probably) learned in this discussion:

uranium2011 is *probably* a 15-17 white kid living in middle America somewhere

uranium2011 is *probably* at least a little, uh, 'specific' about what races/nationalities he talks about

Jay? is way too well-read and well-spoken to be spending her time obliterating flimsy lean-to-points on the internet

Obama is worst than Reagan while being slightly right of him economically.