UU matter on Economy Servers: It's enough to break the game, really!

[gavjenks]

Oh, I forgot to mention you have to make ores biome specific or economics won't really work. The servers I play on have this feature, so going out and mining tin if you set up in a forest just isn't an option, you'd have to go find a river or mountain or something.

If Notch biomes were also about... oh... 100 times larger than they are, then this would be a good solution to localization.

If standard size biomes are used, then it would barely make a difference. I can swiftwolfe, or in vanilla, minecart my way to the biomes around me in seconds, normally.

[SimpleGuy]

Another hard example to consider: If macerators, furnaces, compressors and extractors were as costly as nuclear reactors to make (not necessarily the same materials but on par with quantity of resources), required some type of Thaumcraft-style research that again eats a crapton of resources, and could only operate on one process (eg can only do resin -> rubber and nothing else) then I think it would be a step toward economies being more viable.

Note I say more viable because I don't think it is a black and white issue, more of a continuum.

[gavjenks]

Another hard example to consider: If macerators, furnaces, compressors and extractors were as costly as nuclear reactors to make (not necessarily the same materials but on par with quantity of resources), required some type of Thaumcraft-style research that again eats a crapton of resources, and could only operate on one process (eg can only do resin -> rubber and nothing else) then I think it would be a step toward economies being more viable.

Note I say more viable because I don't think it is a black and white issue, more of a continuum.

That would be cool... Even without the research tree, just making them super expensive would help a lot, yes, and wouldn't really require any innovative new content.

Along similar lines, making computercraft computers significantly mroe expensive would help, too. And possibly somebody writing a mod that monitors people's program writing patterns for anomalistic timing (e.g. writing programs superhumanly quickly, or with nearly the exact same amount of time spent per character), and denies them / flags them, to cut down on people copying in programs that aren't theirs. Both changes combining to make a respectable specialized computer operator/optimizer industry.

[Watchful11]

That would be cool... Even without the research tree, just making them super expensive would help a lot, yes, and wouldn't really require any innovative new content.

Along similar lines, making computercraft computers significantly mroe expensive would help, too. And possibly somebody writing a mod that monitors people's program writing patterns for anomalistic timing (e.g. writing programs superhumanly quickly, or with nearly the exact same amount of time spent per character), and denies them / flags them, to cut down on people copying in programs that aren't theirs. Both changes combining to make a respectable specialized computer operator/optimizer industry.

Slightly difficult since most more experienced programmers write their programs locally in a test edited and use pastebin to upload them.

[gavjenks]

Slightly difficult since most more experienced programmers write their programs locally in a test edited and use pastebin to upload them.

I was taking it as a given that in a hardcore economy server, pastebin would be disabled... that's pretty obviously gamebreaking. (pastebin UPLOAD wouldnt be a problem, so you could still use your code on other less hardcroe servers)

Rather than upgrading pastebin code to try (and probably fail) to make it less exploitative, computercraft folks could put effort into simply making the in game console vastly easier to use, to not scare away those good programmers. E.g. a scroll bar, "home" and "end" and "delete" (not just backspace) keys working properly, auto indentation, being able to click to move your cursor, etc.

[GreenWolf13]

I was taking it as a given that in a hardcore economy server, pastebin would be disabled... that's pretty obviously gamebreaking. (pastebin UPLOAD wouldnt be a problem, so you could still use your code on other less hardcroe servers)

Rather than upgrading pastebin code to try (and probably fail) to make it less exploitative, computercraft folks could put effort into simply making the in game console vastly easier to use, to not scare away those good programmers. E.g. a scroll bar, "home" and "end" and "delete" (not just backspace) keys working properly, auto indentation, being able to click to move your cursor, etc.

Even with the download from pastebin function disabled, it is still possible to write a program that does the exact same thing, thus allowing you to download code from pastebin even when the built in download from pastebin function is disabled.

[Watchful11]

Hmm, I don't know if its a config option, but if possible you could make turtles take way more fuel to move.

Err, if computercraft was updated that is.

[gavjenks]

Even with the download from pastebin function disabled, it is still possible to write a program that does the exact same thing, thus allowing you to download code from pastebin even when the built in download from pastebin function is disabled.

Uh, what? You can't magically connect to the real life internet from within computercraft, if the config options for connecting to the internet are blocking the ports/packets it uses to connect.

[Sacrieur]

Yes, XL biomes and any serious economy server disables EE.

Then you really get some trading going.

[GreenWolf13]

Uh, what? You can't magically connect to the real life internet from within computercraft, if the config options for connecting to the internet are blocking the ports/packets it uses to connect.

Yes, but I'm saying that if the option to disable just pastebin is on (which it is by default), you can still access pastebin, it's just much harder. Unless I'm forgetting something really important.

[gavjenks]

Yes, but I'm saying that if the option to disable just pastebin is on (which it is by default), you can still access pastebin, it's just much harder. Unless I'm forgetting something really important.

No, there is only one config option related to this:

"enableAPI_http=1" if internet connections are on. It is off (0) by default. This controls both the premade convenient pastebin program, and also the more difficult to use (but more general) http API. If it is disabled, then CC has no connection to the internet at all. if it is enabled, then you get both pastebin and the ability to connect to any other http site (which is what you would need to write your own pastebin program)

If it is off, then you're completely cut off... sort of. People still use auto-typing programs to force feed stuff into CC via their client. Or they may manually type stuff in by eye from pastebin. It is possible to protect against both of these things, however, by using behavioral analysis, like what I originally suggested. For instance, things like the even-ness of their code typing, how quickly it is written, how many times they exit in and out of the program changing things compared to how large it is compared to how often it is used (nobody can write a 500 line program with no bugs in one shot), etc.

Since programs are stored in convenient files on the server, writing a third party monitoring program would be fairly easy, without having to work with the CC team or dive into that code at all, really.

It's very similar in concept to using things like stone:ore ratios, and how much air is around the player, to determine whether they seem to be using X-ray mods or not.

[Octo]

I'm playing on a server that doesn't suffer this problem, kinda. There are a few flaws with it, really.

...

There are more biomes, but each biome won't have all of the ores, only certain kinds of resources. Glowstone, for instance, can only be found in elusive mushroom biomes. And ocean/beach/mushroom biomes don't have copper, which is found in forests and extreme hills (plains too?)

Diamonds are far more rare, manufacturing them is easier than digging for them. Uranium is extremely, extremely rare.

Do you know how they achieved this? i mean what plugins or map generators they used. I'm very interested in this. Localized resources and huge biomes is just what i'm looking for for my eco-survival maps.

[Sacrieur]

TerrainControl, I believe.

[Watchful11]

Playing with the world gen is not for the faint of heart, but the results are worth it.

TerrainControl would do it.

[Sacrieur]

Well, I've spent some amount of time on a good economy server, and I've learned many tweaks that need to be done to ensure it works.

XL biomes is a must.

Metal ore resources may be 2x as rare, since macerators double one's return.

If MCMMO is added, then making everything else 2x as rare and metal ores 3x as rare is something that may work.

Increase the chance of rain in all non-desert biomes mildly.

Nerf solar panels and subsequent solar arrays to only output 1/2 (don't forget to decrease packet size).

Have a market place where people can build shops/trade/etc. It has to be easy to get to, like a /warp.

Either remove the nether or make it extremely dangerous to even people wearing nano armor.

[gavjenks]

Ah yes, the nether. I'd suggest removing it entirely., as it would screw up any balance you try to achieve with biome size, etc.

Have a market place where people can build shops/trade/etc. It has to be easy to get to, like a /warp.

In tekkit, I suggest not doing this. Not only does it feel clunky and unrealistic, but there is a danger of allowing easy transportaiton (unless you add in a bloat of other mods like worldguard etc. to keep people in, and then you have to worry about other tekkit mods interfering with that, blah blah).

And more importantly, a better marketplace is already possible with tekkit. More compact, easier to use, and requiring fewer or zero extra mods.

Basically you'd need some nice computer code (could be written once and shared amongst admins on economy servers) that allows people to look up all the offered prices for various goods, sort them by price or by volume available, make offers themselves, etc. It could also keep track of virtual currency, if necessary, to help facilitate computerized trading (the main servers that control that would be communicated with by wireless redstone for infinite range and be hidden away somewhere inaccessible and secure, such as the nether that you disabled access to =P).

Then an enderchest escrow system nearby would automatically take people's stuff, hold it in escrow, verify that both parties provided what they said they would provide, and then distribute the goods to each others' ender chests for delivery. (might benefit from one very simple server plugin that just checks block or item IDs to do this smoothly, although you could also use item detectors and such).

Or something like that.

Unlike the marketplace:

1) This doesn't require any anti-pvp mods to stop people from stabbing each other in the market

2) This doesn't require any shop mods to run shops and stop people from stealing from them

3) This doesn't require teleporting anybody anywhere. (yet another mod, and breaks the mood)

4) This doesn't require the trading people to know anything about each other. It is anonymous, so you can't hold grudges against somebody. It's all about prices. You also can't see what armor somebody is wearing, or follow them home, or anything else like that that is unnecessary and potentially dangerous information to give away that would scare people from trading.

5) This allows you to instantly compare all prices and offers, which saves considerable time and confusion, and does not give an advantage to people with better stall placement. It also makes it virtually impossible to scam people by offering stupid prices and hoping they don't think too hard or shop around enough.

6) This doesn't require any mod to keep people inside the marketplace.

7) This is much more easily replicable to other servers. You simply send them the computer code to use themselves, and then they build the same exact hub machine somewhere safe (or install the one serverside helper mod for block ID verification), and done! No need to design your own marketplace or set up crazy perms files or anything.

[warpspeed10]

Ah yes, the nether. I'd suggest removing it entirely., as it would screw up any balance you try to achieve with biome size, etc.

I'd recommend removing Nether Ores rather than removing an entire third of vanilla minecraft. No Nether means no Potions, End Dimension, EnderChests, Half of RailCraft (anything that requires steel), igniters, ect.

Edit: Oh, and anything that needs glowstone (like every mod) say good bye to those as well.

[gavjenks]

I'd recommend removing Nether Ores rather than removing an entire third of vanilla minecraft. No Nether means no Potions, End Dimension, EnderChests, Half of RailCraft (anything that requires steel), igniters, ect.

Huh? None of the things you mentioned rely on the nether as a dimension.

As was already described as a function of the terrain gen mod used for localized resources, you can add glowstone as a commodity that is found in mushroom biomes. Adding overworld blaze dungeons would probably be just as easy. And netherwart is already available in tekkit without going to the end, since you can get it from cross breeding.

The problem is not resources, which can be easily given alternative paths. The problem is the ability to fly around in the Nether and essentially move at 8x speed, thus negating any of those Xl biomes or localized resources, that server admins would have to work so hard for.

An alternative would be simply making the nether and overworld distance ratio be 1:1, if that's easy to do in code (I don't know). If so, then it could be kept and would present no threat (assuming netherores were removed)

[warpspeed10]

Huh? None of the things you mentioned rely on the nether as a dimension.

As was already described as a function of the terrain gen mod used for localized resources, you can add glowstone as a commodity that is found in mushroom biomes. Adding overworld blaze dungeons would probably be just as easy. And netherwart is already available in tekkit without going to the end, since you can get it from cross breeding.

The problem is not resources, which can be easily given alternative paths. The problem is the ability to fly around in the Nether and essentially move at 8x speed, thus negating any of those Xl biomes or localized resources, that server admins would have to work so hard for.

An alternative would be simply making the nether and overworld distance ratio be 1:1, if that's easy to do in code (I don't know). If so, then it could be kept and would present no threat (assuming netherores were removed)

You forget, all of that needs to be exclusively server side to simply lay over the Tekkit pack. In order to do what you suggest you would have to create your own client and server mod, and then distribute it to your users.

[gavjenks]

You forget, all of that needs to be exclusively server side to simply lay over the Tekkit pack. In order to do what you suggest you would have to create your own client and server mod, and then distribute it to your users.

No, all of that CAN easily be serverside only. Making the ratio in the nether 1:1 could be done by way of a simple teleport bukkit plugin. Whenever it detects you tping between worlds, it intercepts the event and teleports you somewhere else instead, corresponding to the 1:1 coordinates of where you came from.

All of the other things could easily be done serverside only, too. The biome size, the biome specific resources, adding glowstone to mushroom biomes (its just changing blocks... easily done serverside), changing dungeons into blaze dungeons is als a simple matter of changing blocks, etc.

So either of the two solutions could be implemented with bukkit plugins just fine in a tekkit world without clients doing anything special.

[Octo]

what would be nice is that someone shares a terrain control config like that. I would do it but i dont yet understand the plugin.

Or even better, terrain control integrated in tekkit with those settings described here.

Just dreaming

[jojo.bacon]

what would be nice is that someone shares a terrain control config like that. I would do it but i dont yet understand the plugin.

Or even better, terrain control integrated in tekkit with those settings described here.

Just dreaming

I will try to make one and post it in a new thread. With easy setup instructions. :)

[Octo]

I will try to make one and post it in a new thread. With easy setup instructions.

so many thanks for this.

I'm currently working on that as well, i finally understood how the ore config works for TC, but my ore distribution will be based on "mysource's testworld" biomes so i wont be able to share it, well i could share the ore configs but not the biomes, as those are donationware

This could be a starting point for others interested in this:

Ore(DIRT,32,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(GRAVEL,32,10,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(CLAY,32,1,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(COAL_ORE,16,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(IRON_ORE,8,20,100,0,64,STONE)

Ore(GOLD_ORE,8,2,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(REDSTONE_ORE,7,8,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(DIAMOND_ORE,7,1,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(LAPIS_ORE,7,1,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(249,20,30,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(248,15,30,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(140.3,10,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(140.7,10,20,100,0,24,STONE)

Ore(140,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(140.2,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(140.1,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(247,10,20,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(140.6,10,20,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(142,32,50,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(142.32,20,100,0,128,STONE)

From here you just have to adjust ore amounts and use a different setup per biome

Key here, and the thing that's making me brainstorm more, is what would be the best distribution for a true economy and survival server.

I'm basing my map design in biome groups such as deserts, icelands, wetlands, extreme mountains, oceans, rivers and lakes, mountains and valleys and skylands, and my goal is to spread the ores throught those biome groups in addition to make those biomes really huge, i.e. it is not realistic to think about going to another biome to gather resources cause it would cost you days to get there by foot, so the most efficient way is to gather the resources avalaible in your home biome and then trade those with people residing in other biomes.

[jojo.bacon]

so many thanks for this.

I'm currently working on that as well, i finally understood how the ore config works for TC, but my ore distribution will be based on "mysource's testworld" biomes so i wont be able to share it, well i could share the ore configs but not the biomes, as those are donationware

This could be a starting point for others interested in this:

Ore(DIRT,32,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(GRAVEL,32,10,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(CLAY,32,1,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(COAL_ORE,16,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(IRON_ORE,8,20,100,0,64,STONE)

Ore(GOLD_ORE,8,2,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(REDSTONE_ORE,7,8,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(DIAMOND_ORE,7,1,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(LAPIS_ORE,7,1,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(249,20,30,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(248,15,30,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(140.3,10,20,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(140.7,10,20,100,0,24,STONE)

Ore(140,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(140.2,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(140.1,10,20,100,0,32,STONE)

Ore(247,10,20,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(140.6,10,20,100,0,16,STONE)

Ore(142,32,50,100,0,128,STONE)

Ore(142.32,20,100,0,128,STONE)

From here you just have to adjust ore amounts and use a different setup per biome

Key here, and the thing that's making me brainstorm more, is what would be the best distribution for a true economy and survival server.

I'm basing my map design in biome groups such as deserts, icelands, wetlands, extreme mountains, oceans, rivers and lakes, mountains and valleys and skylands, and my goal is to spread the ores throught those biome groups in addition to make those biomes really huge, i.e. it is not realistic to think about going to another biome to gather resources cause it would cost you days to get there by foot, so the most efficient way is to gather the resources avalaible in your home biome and then trade those with people residing in other biomes.

I have a very similar idea, and I am basing it on certain rules

1. Every biome will have two or three important natural resources.

2. Every biome can be crossed in four to five days (minecraft time) at least.

3. Ores will have larger veins but rarer.

You also need to have oil and rubber trees... Ect

[Teraku]

I'm also kinda saddened by this. I caught myself and a friend literally making iron with UU-Matter we got from Solar Panels, which kinda ruined the game because neither one of us felt like mining. The game basically turned into waiting until we could make more Solar Arrays with the Iron we got from UU-Matter. The Mass Fabricator could use some rebalancing, such as removing all recipes which make ores.