Creating a balanced economy modpack?

[Zyme]

Brainstorm with me.

 

This post will be long since I put a lot of time and thought into it.

 

This modpack idea is strictly focused on multiplayer.

 

I had an urge to try and create some kind of balanced economy driven modpack for a long time. This modpack would stay true to vanilla in some regards but add more depth. So this basically means no tech mods. I know, sadface.

 

It also means there needs to be a lot of server plugins, such as economy, shops, towny etc.

 

 

Automation

 

To create a balanced economy where there is a NEED to buy from eachother it basically means NO AUTOMATION at all. Which hurts a bit. I am a big fan of tech mods and automation and I really hate crafting 10 steps and manual mining. But obviously there are people who enjoy it. My challenge is to create a balanced virtual economy within Minecraft, which is really hard. Removing automation is a must. Because it is what makes people "rich" and take care of themselves. This is what I want to try and avoid. Having no automation, you need to choose a path on what to play and what to focus on.

 

 

Teleportation

 

Removing the laziness of teleportation would create a need for a working rail network. To compensate for this if you use mo creatures you eventually get flying horses and wyverns too. I am considering using Flans mod Ye Olde content pack to add the two basic biplanes too as an option.

 

The only teleportation I would consider is fixed portals at set locations throughout the world from spawn.

 

 

Mods

 

The base mods for my modpack idea are:

 

- Metallurgy / Tinkers Construct

This creates the need for more type of metals and deeper progression into "blacksmithing".

 

- Mo Creatures

The need for animals and pets creates a profession, such as "tamers".

 

- Growthcraft/Harvestcraft

More farming opportunities.

 

- Mariculture

To add depth to the sea and more water content, which I think is lacking BIG TIME in Minecraft.

 

- Hunger overhaul

To make the need for food higher.

 

- Forestry

Creates a profession for beekeeping. Some say bees are OP at the end-game which is true. But since automation is removed I don't think bees will be an issue.

 

- Railcraft

With the removal of teleportation it creates the need of a working railway system. People could pay to have a station next to their home. And the railway company can make money selling tickets, this creates an additional money sink and income for this profession.

 

- Flans mod Ye Old content pack

This pack adds two basic bi-planes, one and two seater. I have not tested the balanace of this mod, but you could tweak it to have planes be harder to make, so there is an urge for a plane manufacturing profession and sales of planes.

 

 

 

Professions

 

- Blacksmith

The blacksmith would focus on metallurgy, create armor and equipment or others. This will probably be the most sought after profession in this modpack.

 

- Animal tamer

Tames and breeds animals. Will probably be the second most common profession since people would play this to have pets and enjoy the breeding. Since teleportation is removed it creates the need for flying horses and wyverns on the market.

 

- Farmer

Grows different types of food and potions. This is the hardest profession to balance to avoid everyone to be their own farmer.

 

- Marine biologist

This guy would focus a lot on the marine life. With the mariculture mod it adds reefs, ores and other things to the sea. Making a dependency between the blacksmith and this profession would create a need for it to exist.

 

- Bee keeper

If you love working with bees even without automation this would be a great profession since the end game would create profitable items to sell.

 

- Merchant

The classic buy low/sell high profession. Travels the world for deals and trade himself to riches.

 

- Miner

Some hate mining, some don't. If you love it you could sell ores to blacksmiths if they do not mine themselves. And in return get money to buy more tools.

 

- Plane manufacturer

If flanes bi-plane mod is included you could manufacture planes for people.

 

- Architect

Love building more than anything? If you are good you would probably be hired for work. Could be a viable profession.

 

- Worker

You could possibly work for other people who need help getting specific items, or chores with taking care of the farm etc.

 

 

Challenges

 

The biggest challenge I faced is how to create a NEED for other professions, such as farming. In vanilla when you create your own farm you can live of carrots 24/7 and you will never have to buy any farming products. This puts farmers very low on the list of professions people want to play. Some may play it just for fun.

 

The most desired profession would of course be the blacksmith or the tamer. Since ingots are used for basically everything, and people would want pets. This comes to no surprise if you compare it to real life however. The richest people back in the medieval times (if you do not count royals) were blacksmiths and merchants I believe.

 

 

So how do we add a NEED for farmers to exist? Or people working with marine life. Maybe some ores should spawn just under water? So it creates a need for divers to exist and venture down for much needed ores.

 

 

How do you create the need to go beyond diamond tools? Metallurgy for example has like 50 levels deep of tools.

 

 

 

Money balancing

 

Probably the hardest part of any virtual economy in any game.

 

The only way to make money would be trading between players. But how does money get created from the beginning? Looking at MMOs you get money from grinding mobs and selling things to shops. Maybe there could be public NPC merchants that exist in a market, where you can sell MID-GAME items to earn money. So you will basically run without any money early-game until you choose a path and master it. And end-game items do not sell to NPCs at all and will only be player driven.

 

But this could also create the stagnation of end-game items if everyone focus on selling mid-game items to make money.

 

Perhaps a public bank, where everyone goes into debt and starts with a loan?

 

 

Money sinks

 

Taxes are in the real world for a reason, wether we like it or not.

 

- Sales tax

- Income tax

- Towny plots tax

- Railway tickets

 

 

Player shops

 

Player will be able to create shops at their home.

 

 

To PVP or not PVP

 

This idea is very focused on a NO PVP environment. But perhaps you could add factions as an additional money sink and draw more players. 

 

And for those people who do not want to PVP, you must be in a faction to be able to attack people?

 

This would also create a need for new armor, weapon, potions etc. for the PVP focused players who will lose items when they die.

 

But how would a strict PVP player and factions make money?

 

Perhaps you could sell player heads for money? As some kind of bounty system.

 

 

Conclusions

 

So if you actually bothered to read all this you will realize that it is no easy task to create a balanced, fun to play and working economy with modpacks.

 

As you see I steered clear from "magic". Mostly because I am not a fan of it and often it becomes overpowered in the end.

 

If you have additional mods or ideas on how to make this work in reality feel free to chime in.

 

[TechnicMania]

Wow.... this seems pretty amazing. Your looking to make a server with this right? I would totally join this server if you made it!! It's a really good idea, I love it!

[Zyme]

Yes a custom server is a must because of the server side plugins required.

 

Just to clarify:

 

I did not intend to force people into a profession. The professions are just a loose imagination on how you can make money. Most blacksmiths WILL be miners as well. And anyone WILL be able to play multiple roles if they want. But the configuration and setup would be adjusted to make it harder to master and venture into everything at once.

Essentially the server would be on some kind of "hard mode".

For example to make blacksmithing harder one could use minetweaker and ore generation tools to change the recipes and where the ores spawn. So to venture into tier 2 or 3 in metallurgy would require you to go into mariculture mod for example to get the ores required. Which would require you to be at tier 2/3 in the mariculture progression.

So you would probably not, at the beginning be focusing on both aspects (depending on how everything is setup).

[freakachu]

you would have to really gut railcraft to remove automation options completely.  you'd be surprised what you can do with redstone and railcraft alone.

Edited March 5, 2014 by freakachu
removed stupid question

[Zyme]

I need to find some mods that synergize well with these problems.

 

Forestry does add engines.

 

I have looked at Resonant Induction where the first tiers are about creaing windmills and gears. Which would fit very well. There are also talks about config options to disable "ages/tiers" in that modpack. So the highest power generation would be windmills.

 

Railcraft works with coal. And yes I know you can automate a lot with this. So it will have to be investigated further.

[disconsented]

You will probably want to create a gold sink of some kind, also making food harder to grow may force people to actually consider the specialization

[dwwojcik]

Very cool!  This sort of reminds me of http://www.reddit.com/r/civcraft  After I saw civcraft for the first time (I don't play on it, but I love the idea) I though how cool a modded version would be.

 

If you make this server I would play on it.  I will start a railway company.

 

I wouldn't worry about the railcraft automation.  Last time I played with it (When it was taken out of Tekkit Lite I think) it was very configurable.

Edited March 5, 2014 by dwwojcik

[disconsented]

http://www.sk89q.com/2011/10/economy-in-a-game-like-minecraft/

[Zyme]

http://www.sk89q.com/2011/10/economy-in-a-game-like-minecraft/

 

Thanks, but already read this.

It is a bit old and they used resources as the insurance for the economy, which is harder these days.

 

Especially if the currency will be virtual. I like the challenge of this however. But it should also attract players who like the playstyle.

 

Maybe could support businesses, so you can earn money as a business and not just individuals. And you can own shares etc. Maybe a public stock company so anyone can buy shares.

Ideas are limitless.

[Zyme]

What about restricting enchantments and creation of potions to farmers? Not sure how in practice however.

 

Perhaps change the recipes for vanilla potions to use tier2/3 ingredients from mods.

 

Then they would have an important use in the economy.

 

Obviously tinkers construct creates much more better things than enchantments however. But those items would probably be more expensive than enchanted ones which give farmers a more early advantage.

[disconsented]

A combination of minetweaker and ftb/tekkit restrict plugin's should be able to do that

[Sturlie]

If you want to limit the amount or type of resources players can acquire . . . or perhaps increase the difficulty of achieving them why not tie them to skill trees or 'proffessions' similiar to those seen in games such as World of Warcraft or Runescape. In example anyone could mine something such as coal, but in order to get higher tier ores a player would need to practice their skill for a time to level it up. You could also tie this to say the amount of time spent mining or perhaps output from ores, a less 'skilled' miner might only get one coal from mining an ore, a more experienced one might get three? perhaps.

 

A similiar system could be applied to other areas, a person would need to invest some work into creating weapons and tools in order to be able work with higher tier metals in blacksmithing, perhaps eventually reaching a specialty with special unique perks and benefits associated with an advanced level.

[disconsented]

If you want to limit the amount or type of resources players can acquire . . . or perhaps increase the difficulty of achieving them why not tie them to skill trees or 'proffessions' similiar to those seen in games such as World of Warcraft or Runescape. In example anyone could mine something such as coal, but in order to get higher tier ores a player would need to practice their skill for a time to level it up. You could also tie this to say the amount of time spent mining or perhaps output from ores, a less 'skilled' miner might only get one coal from mining an ore, a more experienced one might get three? perhaps.

 

A similiar system could be applied to other areas, a person would need to invest some work into creating weapons and tools in order to be able work with higher tier metals in blacksmithing, perhaps eventually reaching a specialty with special unique perks and benefits associated with an advanced level.

I looked into doing a similar thing but it will require a custom plugin/mod

[Zyme]

If you want to limit the amount or type of resources players can acquire . . . or perhaps increase the difficulty of achieving them why not tie them to skill trees or 'proffessions' similiar to those seen in games such as World of Warcraft or Runescape. In example anyone could mine something such as coal, but in order to get higher tier ores a player would need to practice their skill for a time to level it up. You could also tie this to say the amount of time spent mining or perhaps output from ores, a less 'skilled' miner might only get one coal from mining an ore, a more experienced one might get three? perhaps.

 

A similiar system could be applied to other areas, a person would need to invest some work into creating weapons and tools in order to be able work with higher tier metals in blacksmithing, perhaps eventually reaching a specialty with special unique perks and benefits associated with an advanced level.

 

The problem with MC is that there is limited content regarding mobs, areas, players etc. compared to a MMO. Classes and professions make sense in a MMO because you can play 30+ people in one group, which is pretty rare in MC. Be happy to get 30 in one server and the content is much bigger where your class actually becomes useful.

 

The plugin mcMMO does add a level system and you get bonuses when mining etc. But I tried it and it feels a bit OP when you get high level. Instead of being a good complement I think it adds inflation to the ores and stuff mined. If you have really high fishing or digging you can get a lot of ridiculous bonus items.

 

But yeah it also requires a lot of custom programming...

 

Also I don't know how I feel about class systems in MMOs for MC, since you are always limited in how you should play. I like the freedom of doing what you want and I think people are used to it in MC already. And rolling an alternative character in MC means buying a new account.

 

I think it would be easier to modify existing recipes to require items from other mods to progress. So if you really want to spend time progressing in more mods alone you can, but that will mean you will not reach higher tiers in any of them in a good while compared to buying what you need.

 

I made a really big project checklist for this and I don't think I will be able to finish it by myself in a short time frame. There are A LOT of pieces to put together, not just make a modpack.

 

To make a working modpack and a working server for this I would need:

 

Graphics designer for banners, logo etc.

Web designer for website

Wordpress developer for customizing website

Bukkit plugin developer

Java developer for customizing mods and/or modify recipes

Advanced server admin knowledge

Good spawn / world builders

Specific plugin knowledge, such as towny, iconomy etc.

Website content team / Wiki team

Instruction videos

Marketing manager

Computercraft programmer

 

 

Right now I am doing all this myself including project management and ideas/solutions so it will take a while.

[masterzh]

 

 

Right now I am doing all this myself including project management and ideas/solutions so it will take a while.

 

Welcome the the real world.

[dwwojcik]

Are you planning on bartering, like with the trade booths mod, or a currency plugin?

[Zyme]

Are you planning on bartering, like with the trade booths mod, or a currency plugin?

 

There would be a player shop plugin, probably using NPC's tied to a currency plugin like iConomy or similar.

 

A item-based economy is problematic having to carry around currency and losing it upon death. It would create a more complex system and I need to find the balance between fun, reality and tedious.

[dwwojcik]

There would be a player shop plugin, probably using NPC's tied to a currency plugin like iConomy or similar.

 

A item-based economy is problematic having to carry around currency and losing it upon death. It would create a more complex system and I need to find the balance between fun, reality and tedious.

How would that work for something like collecting fares at a train station?

I think item cash would be best. I don't know if a tombstone mod was planned, but that would solve the death problem. Anyway, I don't envision people carrying more than a handful of change with them unless they're going shopping.

Besides, it's more fun to see your money in your inventory as opposed to a number in the chat, and I feel like it's truer to Minecraft.

[Zyme]

How would that work for something like collecting fares at a train station?

I think item cash would be best. I don't know if a tombstone mod was planned, but that would solve the death problem. Anyway, I don't envision people carrying more than a handful of change with them unless they're going shopping.

Besides, it's more fun to see your money in your inventory as opposed to a number in the chat, and I feel like it's truer to Minecraft.

 

Computercraft + openmods has a ticket machine. And you can connect a computer to a command block to charge a virtual currency, for example $10 per ticket.

 

Problem nr 2 would be where do people store their money? If they store it in a chest at home and they get griefed and all their money is gone they would cry to the server admins and leave the server.

There is also no way to see a persons wealth. I want to have a leaderboard with the richest people etc. That is the whole point of a economy server.

[dwwojcik]

Computercraft + openmods has a ticket machine. And you can connect a computer to a command block to charge a virtual currency, for example $10 per ticket.

How would I get a command block?

Problem nr 2 would be where do people store their money? If they store it in a chest at home and they get griefed and all their money is gone they would cry to the server admins and leave the server.

No protection plugins?

There is also no way to see a persons wealth. I want to have a leaderboard with the richest people etc. That is the whole point of a economy server.

I thought the goal was to have fun! I was being lied to the whole time?!?

[Zyme]

How would I get a command block?

No protection plugins?

I thought the goal was to have fun! I was being lied to the whole time?!?

 

Admin placement. If you were to play on my server you would compete with the national railway company since building train networks with locomotives in railcraft is what I find really fun. But there should be options for other companies to also be allowed to compete or collaborate with rail networks. I still need to investigate the security aspect of computercraft + command blocks in the hands of a player. Chargable terminals like this would probably be placed by admins if it can be misused. i already built a prototype for this in my creative world.

 

Item-based economy could also be exploited by duping bugs. So I feel a virtual economy is more secure overall.

 

 

There are no 100% secure protection plugins, even if some do a really good job. You still need to ban a lot of items that bypass protection, this is something that needs to be investigated and on-going on each mod.

 

Competing is fun IMO. I was also thinking you can have different title depending on how high your balance is (merchant, trader, tycoon etc.). If you do not want to compete on being the richest player etc. there is nobody forcing you. You could play casually. It's for different playstyles.

 

The more money you make, the bigger cities you can create (with protection) using towny, the more residents you can have, the more income from plot sales/rents you can make and then eventually create a nation which brings you to nation vs nation war, where I still need to figure out the perks of owning territory etc.

[dwwojcik]

I didn't think about dupe bugs, that's a really good point.

Come to think of it, tickets could be bought at a shop instead of having to use command blocks to deduct cash directly. It would be a little easier for guests to have the money deducted directly, but I wouldn't want to be unable to modify a station without bothering a mod.

Minecraft is a fun game where nobody wins and everyone is friends, except for me. I'm going to win.

[Sturlie]

 

The problem with MC is that there is limited content regarding mobs, areas, players etc. compared to a MMO. Classes and professions make sense in a MMO because you can play 30+ people in one group, which is pretty rare in MC. Be happy to get 30 in one server and the content is much bigger where your class actually becomes useful.

 

The plugin mcMMO does add a level system and you get bonuses when mining etc. But I tried it and it feels a bit OP when you get high level. Instead of being a good complement I think it adds inflation to the ores and stuff mined. If you have really high fishing or digging you can get a lot of ridiculous bonus items.

 

But yeah it also requires a lot of custom programming...

 

Also I don't know how I feel about class systems in MMOs for MC, since you are always limited in how you should play. I like the freedom of doing what you want and I think people are used to it in MC already. And rolling an alternative character in MC means buying a new account.

 

I think it would be easier to modify existing recipes to require items from other mods to progress. So if you really want to spend time progressing in more mods alone you can, but that will mean you will not reach higher tiers in any of them in a good while compared to buying what you need.

 

I made a really big project checklist for this and I don't think I will be able to finish it by myself in a short time frame. There are A LOT of pieces to put together, not just make a modpack.

 

To make a working modpack and a working server for this I would need:

 

Graphics designer for banners, logo etc.

Web designer for website

Wordpress developer for customizing website

Bukkit plugin developer

Java developer for customizing mods and/or modify recipes

Advanced server admin knowledge

Good spawn / world builders

Specific plugin knowledge, such as towny, iconomy etc.

Website content team / Wiki team

Instruction videos

Marketing manager

Computercraft programmer

 

 

Right now I am doing all this myself including project management and ideas/solutions so it will take a while.

 

I actually agree wit this. Minecraft's content is far too small and could use some serious expansion in vanilla alone, of course that's where a lot of mods come in. I would love to see a modpack  which broadens the scope of the game at large. Including new types of hostiles etc . . .  I've thought about doing it, but thus far I have no knowledge fo Java so for now it's just a dream.

[disconsented]

MyTown is worth looking into.

One option for currency:
Have both, just need a way to convert between the two (there should be a few plugins for this).

[planetguy]

This sounds really cool and I want to help make it happen. I can help with some programming. I'm moderately knowledgeable about Forge and have used Bukkit a bit.