Bull$#!+ in the world.

[FFGF]

Your ideals? What, 'religion is bullshit and has no bearing'? I know I'm grappling with a troll here but that's an immensely childish point of view. Religion brings comfort, brings hope in a higher power that, honestly, while may or may not exist even the idea is enough to give people hope. And hope, friend, is one of the best things you can give to a person.

Religion truly brings on false hope, how much do you think it "sucks" to believe that once you die, you're going to be transported to this utopia with whatever you want; but then they die and everything they ever were, everything they ever will be, and all their thoughts are gone once there brain is without blood for the few minutes they have until they're brain dead. "Religion brings comfort", that made me laugh, it brings them a false sense of comfort, they think that "Hey if I go to this place and get on my knees and pray to something to the sky then once I die, i'll go into a utopia!", or how about the comfort that if somebody has a curable disease or sickness or needs helps when they say "No don't help me get better, God will help me, he'll get me through this" and then they die.

[Industrial Miner]

Unbelievable that I, a 16-year old boy, have created a thread where lots of older people discuss religion and morals. Okay, can a mod change the title to something more appropiate?

[Xylord]

Unbelievable that I, a 16-year old boy, have created a thread where lots of older people discuss religion and morals. Okay, can a mod change the title to something more appropiate?

Well, if it can comfort you, I'm actually younger than you :P

[Industrial Miner]

Well, if it can comfort you, I'm actually younger than you

That doesn't matter actually. :j

Back on-topic.

I'm fine with my religion, but don't expect me to go extreme with it.

[Brunswick]

Religion truly brings on false hope, how much do you think it "sucks" to believe that once you die, you're going to be transported to this utopia with whatever you want; but then they die and everything they ever were, everything they ever will be, and all their thoughts are gone once there brain is without blood for the few minutes they have until they're brain dead. "Religion brings comfort", that made me laugh, it brings them a false sense of comfort, they think that "Hey if I go to this place and get on my knees and pray to something to the sky then once I die, i'll go into a utopia!", or how about the comfort that if somebody has a curable disease or sickness or needs helps when they say "No don't help me get better, God will help me, he'll get me through this" and then they die.

I'll leave this at saying I know why you're Kellered now.

[FFGF]

I'll leave this at saying I know why you're Kellered now.

Just an excuse to stop posting about your false reality.

[hoho]

A pair of thoughts on that. Why do you want to extend lifespan? I'm just curious because this is a strange viewpoint for me. I see life as more of a...a stage, I guess, and artificially extending that stage just seems wrong to me. In my mind it's always been 'when you die, you die', and artificial attempts beyond medical care and emergency services (like brain uploading and immortality elixirs and all) just seems...I don't know, unnatural?

I already said why I want it: I want to learn more about how universe works.

As for unnatural, well, we've been living unnatural lives for past few hundreds of thousands of years, why not do so in future?

Who would want to live forever? You're depriving yourself of experiencing that last stage, solving the mystery of what's actually the end result of death, and instead condemning yourself to watching everything you've loved and made crumble under the waves of time and decay.

Looking at all the evidence I have combined with tiny bit of logic (it doesn't take much, really) I've concluded that when I die my "soul" will cease to exist. It has never been anything but my neurons firing in certain patterns. When that stops everything ends for me. "Solving the mystery" would be equivalent to jumping off a building to see if perhaps in this specific time atoms rearrange themselves to make the pavement soft enough for me to survive. Considering the odds of that happening I'd like to be able to postpone that experiment, if possible.

Take a flower. You could, in theory, pluck it from the ground and encase it in plastic, rendering its beauty seemingly immortal. But in time, the chemicals will leach from the plastic and degrade it, and it will be lost or forgotten somewhere and be subjected to the gnawing of time and weather, tearing away the plastic and exposing the fragile flower under that. Then what happens? It rots and decays just as normal, the natural events leading to its destruction.

Ignoring that you basically killed the flower while encasing it in plastic you can't ignore the fact that it did last longer and was capable of sensing this world longer. By life extending I assume I won't have to start living in a box but that I can enjoy it as much as I do at the moment.

Average person a couple hundred years ago used to live up to around 40-ish, less if you were poor. Today in many countries people live twice that on average. Is that unnatural and bad? I definitely don't think so.

Even if you were to put it in a carefully controlled environment the decay will still happen and the process will still complete, if slowed.

That's my whole point: it's slowed down so the experience can last longer. Though with good enough technology I'm quite certain (near) immortality is possible, except for accidents obviously.

Again I am not attempting to rip apart your worldview, but to share a different take on it.

Heh, don't worry. I have nothing against people not sharing my world views. Only thing I wish they'd do is explain why exactly they don't so I could see if perhaps there is something wrong in my reasoning. Similarly I expect them to explain how they've arrived to their world view. You are doing FAR better than anyone else at it so far and that really is something considering I've had a metric ton of discussion on the subject

Mind Uploading - Data, like flesh, fails. Power outages, computer errors, physical hardware failures, bit rot...it happens. Just like sudden deaths and diseases and accidents happen to people. There is no immortality in this, just a slower decay.

yeah, I'm not really hoping for immortality all that much and I know there is (almost) no protection against accidents. But still, I'd love to live long enough to for example see if we manage to colonize some our closer planets, make implants and prosthesis that vastly improve our lives (seeing wider spectrum of EM radiation, direct mind access to computers, robotic limbs, ...), develop a real AI or figure out a way to travel to other stars. I'm 27 and within even my short lifetime there have been insanely huge changes in the world and I'd love to see where we can get to in next few hundred years. In reality I'd be glad to live until, say 150 or so. Though that makes the great leap of faith (heh) that humanity doesn't quite completely collapse once energy crysis really hits us in about 10-15-ish years or so.

As for mind uploading specifically, it would open up all sorts of weird and interesting areas. For example making a full-blown and identical copy of yourself would be trivial. I think I might enjoy discussing things with a group made up of copies of myself. Similarly it will be possible to modify yourself in any way you like. It would be rather awesome, I believe

And for life extension, I saw some lecture on TED a while ago where they said they are experimenting on rats and have been able to extend their lives by some 2-3x in labs and it's getting better every year. Obviously it's far from human testing, not to mention wide-spread use but potential is definitely there.

The devil is not in time but in people, in this case, as no matter how much you extend life you cannot control basic human hate and destructive tendencies.

I don't believe that humans have some basic hate or destructive tendencies. It all comes from the environment (read: other people, customs and teachings) and again ultimately boils down to ignorance.

This is the human condition. This is how it has been since time immemorial. Humans are a basically greedy, violent, hateful and destructive race.

No, we are not. If we were we, as a specie, would have died out long ago.

Chiefs, kings, priests, prime ministers and presidents will always lord power over their fellow humans not out of some distinct decision to but from the base instincts of a race that was, is, and always will be animals.

They can only have power over ignorant masses. That's also the main reason why all sorts of power systems generally try to make people ignorant: they are easier to manipulate and control.

We, as humans, will always divide ourselves and fight instead of cooperating. It's in our blood, from the first days of human evolution where we had to fight our way tooth and nail up the food chain to our current position.

Similarly cannibalism and slavery used to be in our blood, assuming that you mean doing those things for longer periods of time qualifies as "being in blood". We've mostly managed to get rid of those. I'm sure we can get rid of the rest of the bad stuff as well. It definitely won't happen overnight, it'll be a (very) slow process.

The human race is a race of survival above all, survival at any cost necessary.

True but nowadays we actually have the capability of knowing about pretty much everything going on on the planet and also quite a bit about stuff close to us in the universe. If we, as a specie, want to survive we pretty much need to start working together as a whole or we'll perish here fighting each others. Next global extinction event is not a question of "if" but "when" and we need to be ready for it.

See, to me, the child has choice from the moment they develop enough mental wherewithal and capacity to understand it. One never must believe something. People can be told 'no', can be told to fuck off.

Good in theory but fails utterly in practice. Just think of any of the more religious countries, try to say "no" there and you'll be lucky to survive to next day. Not long ago there was a man sentenced to prison for spreading anti-religious messages on FB in Indionesia. In US it's generally not as severe but there are definitely tons of problems with it.

If you are being told about god and to not try to use any critical thinking about religion since the day you were born it's pretty hard to be able to change anything. Also power of community can be really strong. Only rare few people are strong enough to go against the views of their peers. Brainwashing works.

Religion brings comfort, brings hope in a higher power that, honestly, while may or may not exist even the idea is enough to give people hope. And hope, friend, is one of the best things you can give to a person.

I've compared the good and bad sides and effects of religion and I've concluded the bads are far FAR worse in grand scheme of things and pretty much all the good is replaceable with other, often better, stuff.

Though specifically, what kind of hope do you mean that religion can give that nothing else can? I can't think of anything, really. Well, except perhaps having an afterlife but going by the traditional paradise concept, well, yeah. I'd rather not spend eternity in that inhumane torture chamber.

Why torture chamber? That's only thing it can be once you start to think logically about it. Here's a starter:

you had an annoying relative/friend that you didn't want to spend time with. What happens when you both end up in paradise? One of you will be pretty sorry for the rest of eternity. Other option is you'll be lobotomized to not be anything similar to the person you were on Earth. You basically cease to exist and something else takes your place and it won't be you any more.

As for what FFGF has been saying, I basically am saying the same thing, just using fancier sentences :)

[warpspeed10]

Stoning is bad... mkay?

Apparently, I have no morals though.

[FFGF]

I already said why I want it: I want to learn more about how universe works.

As for unnatural, well, we've been living unnatural lives for past few hundreds of thousands of years, why not do so in future?

Looking at all the evidence I have combined with tiny bit of logic (it doesn't take much, really) I've concluded that when I die my "soul" will cease to exist. It has never been anything but my neurons firing in certain patterns. When that stops everything ends for me. "Solving the mystery" would be equivalent to jumping off a building to see if perhaps in this specific time atoms rearrange themselves to make the pavement soft enough for me to survive. Considering the odds of that happening I'd like to be able to postpone that experiment, if possible.

Ignoring that you basically killed the flower while encasing it in plastic you can't ignore the fact that it did last longer and was capable of sensing this world longer. By life extending I assume I won't have to start living in a box but that I can enjoy it as much as I do at the moment.

Average person a couple hundred years ago used to live up to around 40-ish, less if you were poor. Today in many countries people live twice that on average. Is that unnatural and bad? I definitely don't think so.

That's my whole point: it's slowed down so the experience can last longer. Though with good enough technology I'm quite certain (near) immortality is possible, except for accidents obviously.

Heh, don't worry. I have nothing against people not sharing my world views. Only thing I wish they'd do is explain why exactly they don't so I could see if perhaps there is something wrong in my reasoning. Similarly I expect them to explain how they've arrived to their world view. You are doing FAR better than anyone else at it so far and that really is something considering I've had a metric ton of discussion on the subject

yeah, I'm not really hoping for immortality all that much and I know there is (almost) no protection against accidents. But still, I'd love to live long enough to for example see if we manage to colonize some our closer planets, make implants and prosthesis that vastly improve our lives (seeing wider spectrum of EM radiation, direct mind access to computers, robotic limbs, ...), develop a real AI or figure out a way to travel to other stars. I'm 27 and within even my short lifetime there have been insanely huge changes in the world and I'd love to see where we can get to in next few hundred years. In reality I'd be glad to live until, say 150 or so. Though that makes the great leap of faith (heh) that humanity doesn't quite completely collapse once energy crysis really hits us in about 10-15-ish years or so.

As for mind uploading specifically, it would open up all sorts of weird and interesting areas. For example making a full-blown and identical copy of yourself would be trivial. I think I might enjoy discussing things with a group made up of copies of myself. Similarly it will be possible to modify yourself in any way you like. It would be rather awesome, I believe

And for life extension, I saw some lecture on TED a while ago where they said they are experimenting on rats and have been able to extend their lives by some 2-3x in labs and it's getting better every year. Obviously it's far from human testing, not to mention wide-spread use but potential is definitely there.

I don't believe that humans have some basic hate or destructive tendencies. It all comes from the environment (read: other people, customs and teachings) and again ultimately boils down to ignorance.

No, we are not. If we were we, as a specie, would have died out long ago.

They can only have power over ignorant masses. That's also the main reason why all sorts of power systems generally try to make people ignorant: they are easier to manipulate and control.

Similarly cannibalism and slavery used to be in our blood, assuming that you mean doing those things for longer periods of time qualifies as "being in blood". We've mostly managed to get rid of those. I'm sure we can get rid of the rest of the bad stuff as well. It definitely won't happen overnight, it'll be a (very) slow process.

True but nowadays we actually have the capability of knowing about pretty much everything going on on the planet and also quite a bit about stuff close to us in the universe. If we, as a specie, want to survive we pretty much need to start working together as a whole or we'll perish here fighting each others. Next global extinction event is not a question of "if" but "when" and we need to be ready for it.

Good in theory but fails utterly in practice. Just think of any of the more religious countries, try to say "no" there and you'll be lucky to survive to next day. Not long ago there was a man sentenced to prison for spreading anti-religious messages on FB in Indionesia. In US it's generally not as severe but there are definitely tons of problems with it.

If you are being told about god and to not try to use any critical thinking about religion since the day you were born it's pretty hard to be able to change anything. Also power of community can be really strong. Only rare few people are strong enough to go against the views of their peers. Brainwashing works. I've compared the good and bad sides and effects of religion and I've concluded the bads are far FAR worse in grand scheme of things and pretty much all the good is replaceable with other, often better, stuff.

Though specifically, what kind of hope do you mean that religion can give that nothing else can? I can't think of anything, really. Well, except perhaps having an afterlife but going by the traditional paradise concept, well, yeah. I'd rather not spend eternity in that inhumane torture chamber.

Why torture chamber? That's only thing it can be once you start to think logically about it. Here's a starter:

you had an annoying relative/friend that you didn't want to spend time with. What happens when you both end up in paradise? One of you will be pretty sorry for the rest of eternity. Other option is you'll be lobotomized to not be anything similar to the person you were on Earth. You basically cease to exist and something else takes your place and it won't be you any more.

As for what FFGF has been saying, I basically am saying the same thing, just using fancier sentences

I like the way you think, do you have a steam account; I would like to compare our philosophy's. If you do add me http://steamcommunity.com/id/ffgfmendoza/

[The_DarthMoogle]

I'm cool with other people practising religion, as long as it does not infringe on other people's rights.

People are free to believe what they want, and many scientists are 'God fearing Christians' or indeed, a plethora of other religions.

Having beliefs or thoughts about all-powerful deities is a natural thought process experienced by everyone that passes through this world.

Is outright refusing to believe in a God open-mindedness? That was a loaded question, sure, but my point still stands.

It's kinda ironic that people defend their atheism with more hostility and ambiguity than any religious person.

I don't believe in a God, because I have zero need for one. I believe in friends, family, and food.

[Xylord]

It's kinda ironic that people defend their atheism with more hostility and ambiguity than any religious person.

Ahem... Fox News? Anyone?

[warpspeed10]

Ahem... Fox News? Anyone?

Fox News isn't that bad. They're always completely fair and balanced towards both Christians and Christians alike.

[Xylord]

Fox News isn't that bad. They're always completely fair and balanced towards both Christians and Christians alike.

You've got a point. And it's always fun when Bill O'Reilly starts delusionning (shut up auto-correct).

[warpspeed10]

You've got a point. And it's always fun when Bill O'Reilly starts delusionning (shut up auto-correct).

Hey now, he's got a point. Tide goes in, tide goes out... can't explain that.

[Xylord]

Hey now, he's got a point. Tide goes in, tide goes out... can't explain that.

Yep that's right, since he's an ignorant idiot who lacks the most basic elementary grade knowledge in science, he just can't explain that. Sucks to be him.

[warpspeed10]

Yep that's right, since he's an ignorant idiot who lacks the most basic elementary grade knowledge in science, he just can't explain that. Sucks to be him.

I wish someone had told me that I could have just skipped high school altogether and gone straight to propaganda.

[hoho]

I'm cool with other people practising religion, as long as it does not infringe on other people's rights.

Most kids that happen to born in religious families do get their rights infringed.

People are free to believe what they want, and many scientists are 'God fearing Christians' or indeed, a plethora of other religions.

Yes, they are. How do they manage to stay ignorant on one area and not the rest is quite weird to me.

Having beliefs or thoughts about all-powerful deities is a natural thought process experienced by everyone that passes through this world.

I must be some kind of a weirdo then that has never thought such a thing is possible to exist. Living in a country with nearly the lowest rate of theists probably helps.

Is outright refusing to believe in a God open-mindedness? That was a loaded question, sure, but my point still stands.

All I need to start believing in one is decent proof. I've yet to see anyone providing anything that would actually make any kind of sense. Believing "just in case" is rather stupid thing to do in my oppinion.

It's kinda ironic that people defend their atheism with more hostility and ambiguity than any religious person.

"Any religious person" is quite definitely false, you haven't really seen the crazy stuff I have Also why shouldn't I be hostile towards something that has brought that much bad to this world?

[KakerMix]

Atheists defending their beliefs (specifically, the lack of them) with passion shouldn't be surprising. Here in the U.S. at least, we're told we have the freedom to practice any religion we'd like, including the lack of one.

One of my friends' family is a "true" Christian family. They love everyone, they help everyone (we're talking food bank, charity work, foster family sort of things, not just dumping some change in a Salvation Army bucket) and I could count on them to help me out in anything I needed it with, because they put love first, then everything else. Sure, there are things that bother me (foster children are told God is real, hardly an objective teaching) but they leave me alone. To them, love is the most important aspect of Jesus' teachings, and for that reason they are as much as *my* family as my own, even though on fundamental levels I disagree with what they believe in. They know I don't believe, yet they love me just the same.

They would never pass judgement on someone, no matter what they have done, unfortunately the current dialog that the loudest 'Christians' ally themselves with goes completely against that.

[hoho]

One problem I have with religious people doing things "out of love" is I can never be sure if they actually care or are just being selfish and try earning brownie points for their god.

[warpspeed10]

One problem I have with religious people doing things "out of love" is I can never be sure if they actually care or are just being selfish and try earning brownie points for their god.

^This, so much.

[Adlersch]

One problem I have with religious people doing things "out of love" is I can never be sure if they actually care or are just being selfish and try earning brownie points for their god.

I fail to see why it matters in the wide world. In a hypothetical situation, if I don't believe in a God, Goddess, gods, or any higher power of any sort, but I see a known church member in my town or prominent local religious figure doing something nice, the why doesn't matter to me. So what if they want to cozy up to a higher power I don't believe in? Who cares WHY they do it? As long as they're doing it, and continue to do it, I'm going to just mark it up as a nice person doing nice things.

Why a person does something kind is their business, in my opinion. I'm not about to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if I'm not working at the local soup kitchen myself.

Edit: Also, the same could be said for a non-religious person. If that person wants to look good in their community, doing kind things 'out of compassion' would be the way to go. Just saying, doing right things for the wrong reasons isn't just a flaw some religious people have. It, like all flaws, is a humanistic one.

[KakerMix]

Also, the same could be said for a non-religious person. If that person wants to look good in their community, doing kind things 'out of compassion' would be the way to go. Just saying, doing right things for the wrong reasons isn't just a flaw some religious people have. It, like all flaws, is a humanistic one.

Right, and if you are like me, absolutely everything everyone does is selfish because anything can have satisfaction drawn from it. Give a bum on the street five bucks, I feel good. Scratch my dog behind the ears, I get joy out of that. Hold the door open for someone at the store, I get a smile and maybe some satisfaction.

Point is, anyone doing anything to help someone else always gets something in return. Tangible things like a favor later or they plain feel more satisfied with their life in that fleeting moment, whatever. With this outlook it really doesn't matter at all *why* people are nice, because even if its brownie points for their God or just to look good in their community, ultimately its just a label on a selfish act.

[FFGF]

Right, and if you are like me, absolutely everything everyone does is selfish because anything can have satisfaction drawn from it. Give a bum on the street five bucks, I feel good. Scratch my dog behind the ears, I get joy out of that. Hold the door open for someone at the store, I get a smile and maybe some satisfaction.

Point is, anyone doing anything to help someone else always gets something in return. Tangible things like a favor later or they plain feel more satisfied with their life in that fleeting moment, whatever. With this outlook it really doesn't matter at all *why* people are nice, because even if its brownie points for their God or just to look good in their community, ultimately its just a label on a selfish act.

There needs to be a way to +1 a post.

[Brunswick]

There needs to be a way to +1 a post.

No, there doesn't.

[Adlersch]

There needs to be a way to +1 a post.

If you agree with a post, just say so, and explain why you agree with it. Upvoting, downvoting, all the semantic bullshit is just an excuse to allow anonymous trolling. If a +1 is all you have to add to a conversation, don't do anything. Sit and think of something you can add to the conversation while simultaneously agreeing with whichever post you like. And if you can't think of anything, just sit back and enjoy it for what it is.

Too often I find myself tempted to write, "Oh wow, this made me laugh so hard," or "I can't say enough how I agree with this." Far, far too often for my own good.