Removing IC2 and RP3 wasn't fully compensated

[Hyperwræth]

...which is an endgame method of limitless generation of non-renewable resources.

And that, kitti, is why EE is so freakin broken. That completely eclipses every other mod. IDC how late game it is, or how slow it is to create EMC, being able to generate every resource in the game completely breaks the game from a creative viewpoint. Say you wanted to make a musket factory when you were bored late-game. Muskets required iron. To make the factory work, you would have to make an incredibly complex but sustainable iron golem farm or a non-sustainable quarry to get the iron. Or you could just grab your minium stone, plop down a cobblestone generator and transmute it all into iron. In general, the way EE turns your crap into non-renewable resources allows you to automate things that really shouldn't be possible at such a simple level (Edit: Or possible at all! Maybe you shouldn't be able to transmute up all the diamonds in the world). 

 

"But if you think its OP you can just remove it not take away the fun from the rest of us..." Its so fundamentally broken it shouldn't even be an option to mess around with. The antithesis would literally make more sense: have tekkit not include it and have to be added in separately. It makes hard-to-get items much easier to obtain like ender pearls... because maybe you shouldn't be accumulating them that fast. You get the idea. 

 

Overall, removing EE will make people think about how they will obtain all their necessities late-game, and make it last a bit longer without the transmute-crap-into-everything-I-need. No matter how late you are in the game should you have said power. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[FyberOptic]

I agree with everyone saying that EE is overpowered, but that doesn't mean it's not fun.  I used it to build an HV solar factory on multiple levels of a building once on the server I played on, and then had more EU than I ever needed.  Didn't matter that I ruined the balance, it was entirely satisfying to accomplish that.  Then we eventually moved on to a different world where I avoided EE altogether, as an entirely different challenge.

 

 

 

And it's not really that much different than MFR having a mining machine that pulls materials from nowhere these days, or generating endless dimensions with Mystcraft and quarrying or digital mining them out for infinite resources.

[Curunir]

Overall, removing EE will make people think about how they will obtain all their necessities late-game, and make it last a bit longer without the transmute-crap-into-everything-I-need. No matter how late you are in the game should you have said power.

There is more than one way to play the game, my friend. Your insistence on arguing against even a toned-down EE implies that you want to shove your way down other people's throats. Did it ever occur to you why the EE2 fans didn't just play in Creative mode? Are you denying that they had fun using EE2? Because they most certainly had. Or are you implying that you cannot have fun with the game when these people have it? Because nobody is forcing you to play the way they do. If you really want a hard, unforgiving game where you have to grind for every little bit of resources, then go ahead, play that game. Remove EE from your local Tekkit if you must, or set up a server for yourself and your friends configured like that. Nobody is keeping you. And don't forget to remove Minefactory Reloaded as well, because that is all about making things easy to automate and mass-produce. Oh, and that overpowered Extra Utilities mod. Making stuff easy for people since it was included. How dare they?

And while you are at it, BigReactors deliver way too much power and are too easy to make. You see where I am getting with this?

 

If you can only be satisfied by taking other people's fun away, then you are, quite simply, a bad person.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Curunir

[CXXIVLDIVL]

this is quite interesting 

 

 

i am wondering what happens when a mod is removed from the pack? do your machines from that pack vanish?

[kattzkitti]

i am wondering what happens when a mod is removed from the pack? do your machines from that pack vanish?

if the mod has worldgen or placeable blocks (thermal expansion dynamos and ores, etc) it'll cause your client to crash when you enter the world. worst case, it might even corrupt the world file, rendering the entire save unplayable at all.

[EvilOwl]

I only seen it in 1.7.10. The blocks simply disappeared leaving holes underground.

[Kalbintion]

if the mod has worldgen or placeable blocks (thermal expansion dynamos and ores, etc) it'll cause your client to crash when you enter the world. worst case, it might even corrupt the world file, rendering the entire save unplayable at all.

 

Not always true. Worldgen stuff such as biomes can cause crashes, however trees and the like wont cause crashes, theyll simply vanish (with a warning about id mismatches or missing prior to loading the world) and turn into air.

[CXXIVLDIVL]

if the mod has worldgen or placeable blocks (thermal expansion dynamos and ores, etc) it'll cause your client to crash when you enter the world. worst case, it might even corrupt the world file, rendering the entire save unplayable at all.

 

do the crash happen even if the mod was removed in an update?

 

for example, if in the next update TE is removed so will my save file crash if i had TE machines in it before the update?

[redsector]

for example, if in the next update TE is removed so will my save file crash if i had TE machines in it before the update?

 

Probably. But why the hell would you worry about that? As long as there are only minor Tekkit updates (such as 1.2.10 as an update to the current 1.2.9), I'm pretty sure nothing will be entirely removed. So there's no problem unless you decide to delete mods from the package yourself after already using their blocks in your world.

 

And after a major update, i. e. when Tekkit finally makes the jump to a new Minecraft build and some mods might indeed not make it into the final package, you'll most likely have to generate a new world anyway. Big updates like that have a tendency to mess up existing worlds from earlier minecraft versions in a number of ways in addition to the whole "missing blocks from older mods" issue.

[Hyperwræth]

There is more than one way to play the game, my friend. Your insistence on arguing against even a toned-down EE implies that you want to shove your way down other people's throats. Did it ever occur to you why the EE2 fans didn't just play in Creative mode? Are you denying that they had fun using EE2? Because they most certainly had. Or are you implying that you cannot have fun with the game when these people have it? Because nobody is forcing you to play the way they do. If you really want a hard, unforgiving game where you have to grind for every little bit of resources, then go ahead, play that game. Remove EE from your local Tekkit if you must, or set up a server for yourself and your friends configured like that. Nobody is keeping you. And don't forget to remove Minefactory Reloaded as well, because that is all about making things easy to automate and mass-produce. Oh, and that overpowered Extra Utilities mod. Making stuff easy for people since it was included. How dare they?

And while you are at it, BigReactors deliver way too much power and are too easy to make. You see where I am getting with this?

 

If you can only be satisfied by taking other people's fun away, then you are, quite simply, a bad person.

Nice effort but you missed my points. I didn't connote that EE takes the fun from the game, I said that A) The generation of non-renewable resources allows for automation that shouldn't be possible, Bi) It allows you to create exactly what you need at any given time from your crap, and C) This causes it to break tekkit and overshadow the other mods. Also, my prior point that alchemy =/= industry.This pack's purpose is to test the synergy between mods with different machines and forms of automation. Transmutation bends the synergy for the worse. 

 

Regarding what you wrote, there is a canyon between the power of EE and the mods you listed. Sure, TE lets you do things like double ore yields and MFR automate everything you could do in vanilla minecraft, however those didn't interfere with the sustainable generation of non-renewable resources. The only mod that allows you to turn cobblestone into iron is EE. Doubling ore yields, automating everything and producing huge amounts of electricity also doesn't allow you to create certain expensive resources on command. 

 

The reasons I gave to why EE breaks tekkit are still legit. Your argument was simply irrelevant. I understand the mod is fun; I used it extensively myself, however it doesn't belong. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[Curunir]

I certainly didn't miss your points, just told you why they are invalid. You cannot "break" a sandbox game whatsoever. The real problem about EE2 was the server-breaking empowerment, not the fact that the game became "too easy".

Also, Tekkit is by far not a pure "machine modpack". It has Mystcraft, which is just as heavily used as EE3, and even DDoors. While I reserve judgement on each of those, it should show clearly that Tekkit devs have been striking for versatility, not purity. If your ideas were to be applied and Tekkit stripped down to what you consider appropriate, I would stop playing Tekkit.

You are free to play the game you want, to carve it from the sandbox just as everybody else. The only game-breaking move is limiting people's choices and imposing a right and wrong.

[CXXIVLDIVL]

i dont fully know whats going on but i agree with curunir

 

why dont u make ur own pack if you dont like tekkit? 

[Kezr]

I don't understand where the 'balance' of EE3 is broken. Sure, you can use the Minium stone to make diamonds from cobblestone, but the Minium stone takes 8 diamonds and some gold and iron to make. It runs out of durability before making that many resources, unless you start higher up in the 'transmutation chain', that is, by using an obsidian generator or something similar.

 

This is of course only relevant to EE3, but EE2 is dead and thus irrelevant to discuss.

 

Or am I missing something?

[Hyperwræth]

Let's finish this, I'm done after this. Edit: I had to condense the quotes because I had too many lool

Tekkit is by far not a pure "machine modpack". It has Mystcraft, which is just as heavily used as EE3, and even DDoors. While I reserve judgement on each of those, it should show clearly that Tekkit devs have been striking for versatility, not purity.

OK lets recap the values of tekkit. Straight from the website:
 

"Get your gear in order and prepare to blast off on an adventure all your own with Tekkit."

 

So we got 2 parts to this mod. The first is the "gear in order," implying (well, even if it doesn't you know its in there) the whole technology and automation aspect of the mod, which mods like MFR, TE, and BuildCraft all pertain to. Then you have the "blast off on an adventure" half, which mods like Mystcraft, DimDoors, and Twilight Forest pertain to. In fact, they made a big deal about that whole adventure thing on the website. 
 
Now where does EE3 fit in? It goes on the machine and automation side. It allows for some interesting synergy with the autocrafting tables and machines like quarries, I'll give you that, but the synergy is corrupt and unhealthy for the game, which I will get into later. 
 
Now just to prove that EE3 had to fit one of those catagories to make it in Tekkit:

 

"...a renewed sense of adventure and a focused drive..."

 

EE3 is luckier than its brother, Thaumcraft, which didn't survive the transition. Also pertaining to alchemy, my guess would be because it didn't have as much to offer in terms of interaction with other mods, and thus failed to fit either category.  
 
OK, moving on:
 

I certainly didn't miss your points, just told you why they are invalid.

Lets compare some arguments. 
 

A) The generation of non-renewable resources allows for automation that shouldn't be possible

That completely eclipses every other mod. IDC how late game it is, or how slow it is to create EMC, being able to generate every resource in the game completely breaks the game from a creative viewpoint. Say you wanted to make a musket factory when you were bored late-game. Muskets required iron. To make the factory work, you would have to make an incredibly complex but sustainable iron golem farm or a non-sustainable quarry to get the iron. Or you could just grab your minium stone, plop down a cobblestone generator and transmute it all into iron. In general, the way EE turns your crap into non-renewable resources allows you to automate things that really shouldn't be possible at such a simple level (Edit: Or possible at all! Maybe you shouldn't be able to transmute up all the diamonds in the world).

 

(Hyperwraeth on 25 Aug 2014 - 08:30 AM)

 

I didn't connote that EE takes the fun from the game, I said that A) The generation of non-renewable resources allows for automation that shouldn't be possible...

There is more than one way to play the game, my friend. Your insistence on arguing against even a toned-down EE implies that you want to shove your way down other people's throats. Did it ever occur to you why the EE2 fans didn't just play in Creative mode? Are you denying that they had fun using EE2? Because they most certainly had. Or are you implying that you cannot have fun with the game when these people have it? Because nobody is forcing you to play the way they do.

When I made obvious how EE3 allows you to sustainably create non-renewable resources/take atrocious shortcuts, you took it as EE3 is taking the fun out of the game. That is not what I meant. I mean #1) It lets you make simple factories able to create the most advanced items in the game, and #2 Overshadows any mods bypassed with the transmution shortcut. Sorry my example wasn't good at all; it was late at night and I was hoping it was enough to spread the general idea. 
 

Bi) It allows you to create exactly what you need at any given time from your [crap]

It makes hard-to-get items much easier to obtain like ender pearls... because maybe you shouldn't be accumulating them that fast. You get the idea. 
-----
, and make it last a bit longer without the transmute-crap-into-everything-I-need.

 

(Hyperwraeth on 25 Aug 2014 - 08:30 AM)

 

Regarding what you wrote, there is a canyon between the power of EE and the mods you listed... ...Doubling ore yields, automating everything and producing huge amounts of electricity also doesn't allow you to create certain expensive resources on command.

Or are you implying that you cannot have fun with the game when these people have it? Because nobody is forcing you to play the way they do. If you really want a hard, unforgiving game where you have to grind for every little bit of resources, then go ahead, play that game. Remove EE from your local Tekkit if you must, or set up a server for yourself and your friends configured like that. Nobody is keeping you. And don't forget to remove Minefactory Reloaded as well, because that is all about making things easy to automate and mass-produce. Oh, and that overpowered Extra Utilities mod. Making stuff easy for people since it was included. How dare they?
And while you are at it, BigReactors deliver way too much power and are too easy to make. You see where I am getting with this?

So I come out stating how EE3 allows people to create the resources they need faster than they should be, and its also on-command when ever you want. Similar to my last argument, you assumed the point I implied was that EE3 takes the fun out of the game. Then I'm not sure if your stating or exaggerating, but you describe the game harder than it would be without EE3. We already have pulverizers and the such so the grinding isn't that excessive without it, but add EE3 and there is simply not enough grinding because you can always transmute something up when your short a material and turn all your obsidian into diamonds. 
 
Then you started comparing EE3 to the other mods, and made a valid point in that EE3 isn't the only mod making things easier, however there is a significant difference between EE3 and the other mods, in that "automating everything and producing huge amounts of electricity also doesn't allow you to create certain expensive resources on command," which is more of what makes EE3 OP. 
 

C) This causes it to break tekkit and overshadow the other mods

 

And that, kitti, is why EE is so freakin broken. That completely eclipses every other mod. IDC how late game it is, or how slow it is to create EMC, being able to generate every resource in the game completely breaks the game from a creative viewpoint.
 
Overall, removing EE will make people think about how they will obtain all their necessities late-game, and make it last a bit longer without the transmute-crap-into-everything-I-need. No matter how late you are in the game should you have said power.

 

(Hyperwraeth on 25 Aug 2014 - 08:30 AM)

 

Regarding what you wrote, there is a canyon between the power of EE and the mods you listed. Sure, TE lets you do things like double ore yields and MFR automate everything you could do in vanilla minecraft, however those didn't interfere with the sustainable generation of non-renewable resources. The only mod that allows you to turn cobblestone into iron is EE. Doubling ore yields, automating everything and producing huge amounts of electricity also doesn't allow you to create certain expensive resources on command.

There is more than one way to play the game, my friend. Your insistence on arguing against even a toned-down EE implies that you want to shove your way down other people's throats. Did it ever occur to you why the EE2 fans didn't just play in Creative mode? Are you denying that they had fun using EE2?

 

(Curunir, on 25, Aug 2014 - 09:01 AM)

 

I certainly didn't miss your points, just told you why they are invalid. You cannot "break" a sandbox game whatsoever. The real problem about EE2 was the server-breaking empowerment, not the fact that the game became "too easy".

The main argument here is: transmution in EE3 affects the machine synergy badly; however if a mod is OP you can simply avoid it; then its so fundamentally broken that it shouldn't be an option; but that might be too limiting. The next argument was that the ability to sustainably generate non-renewable resources and to create certain expensive resources on command breaks the game by rendering all the other mods useless late-game, and then "You cannot 'break' a sandbox game whatsoever," implying that's because you can choose to remove EE3 from your own client. 
 
Sorry if that's a little confusing... well, really confusing, but keeping an OP mod in standard tekkit, then saying 'you can remove it if you want to' is wrong; it should be the other way around. With that out of the way, I don't think its even disputable that EE3 overshadows the other mods. And this brings us to our conclusion:
 

Conclusion

EE3 meets the same fate as its alchemical brother, Thaumcraft. Seemingly unfortunate to some, not every mod can make it into Tekkit, for then it wouldn't have a focus. EE3 doesn't belong in the pack for numerous reasons, essentially eclipsing the other mods.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[kattzkitti]

Or am I missing something?

as i've stated, unless pahimar has changed his plans, passive EMC generation and the creation of resources from said EMC are both mechanics that will be coming back. he's removing both collectors and condensers, to be replaced by more 'balanced' designs (slower passive generation, more complex/costly/inefficient creation, etc)

 

so basically, the haters of EE2 are just copying their same tired [and flawed] arguments to use in attacking EE3.

Edited August 25, 2014 by kattzkitti

[Silmenume]

so basically, the haters of EE2 are just copying their same tired [and flawed] arguments to use in attacking EE3.

 

First of all - relax.

 

This is a forum for the discussion of ideas.  Not all of them are going to line up with yours.  This is understood - or ought to be when entering a discussion.  This is also a topic of opinions which makes this topic even more fluid.  There are no rights or wrongs when discussing opinions.

 

However, how one approaches a conversation can be said to be "right" or "wrong".  Dismissing a whole group of people by engaging in the logical fallacy of ad hominem is "wrong" (read inappropriate) behavior on a forum.  In this case calling a bunch of people who do not share your "opinion" as "haters" is not only inappropriate its poor argumentation.

 

If you feel that the people who do not share your opinion about EE2 are "wrong" (and I don't know how that can be regarding what one finds enjoyable or not - IOW an opinion) then present logical arguments and refrain from name calling, please.

 

edit - fixed typo

Edited August 26, 2014 by Silmenume

[planetguy]

I think the developers of Tekkit should consider dropping EE3 in favour of AetherCraft. As-is, EE3 is quite scaled back from EE2 and has no mod integration or configurability. AetherCraft, meanwhile, has condenser-type things and allows connecting machinery to transfer aether (EMC, basically), includes automatic value calculation with support for mod recipes, and can be easily re-balanced using its configuration.

[Hyperwræth]

Silmenume, you have my gratitude. 

 

----

 

@planetguy hmm I might look at it sometime. Personally I always liked Thaumcraft because of how balanced it is. Like literally everything you do in that mod has a serious negative consequence.

 

I'm starting to change my guess on why it was removed. Contradicting what I wrote in my wall of text, it did interact with the other mods with stuff like the thaumatic generator, and it did provide some machines (like the research desk and insanely costly duplicator. Maybe it had to do with the Aura counting as another power system, idk. 

 

Edit: OK so I looked at AetherCraft: its like the condensers from EE2. So I see a couple problems with it. To create a working system, it only requires 2 diamonds and an emerald, which basically means people are going to be transmuting their cobblestone into diamonds really early, and they can do so infinitely. Second, I think the aether conduits counts as another redundant power system, and third its only updated for 1.4.5 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[planetguy]

Thaumcraft hasn't been in Tekkit since 1.1, when it was removed by request of its developer, as I remember.

 

I don't like Thaumcraft despite trying to get into it, and never use it myself, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have transmutation - it's more a magic mod, so it doesn't fit into a tech pack very well. (EE or AeC could very well be considered magic mods, but Tekkit has a precedent of including EE.)

[FyberOptic]

I don't like Thaumcraft despite trying to get into it, and never use it myself, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have transmutation 

 

You can transmute base metals, but it's not a very practical system.  I think it's probably only useful for getting gold out of armor dropped as loot, maybe.

[kattzkitti]

First of all - relax.

i'm always relaxed, friend.

 

as for the rest of your post, allow me to respond in a very clear and concise manner. when the EE haters can bring an actual legitimate argument to the table, then discussion can be had. however, i have yet to see them bring anything other than non-debatable personal opinions and unfounded hatred for the mod.

 

at any rate, it is wholly pointless to continue this line of discussion. it only goes to one place, and that place is not forum-friendly. i will be the first to take my leave.

[Curunir]

at any rate, it is wholly pointless to continue this line of discussion. it only goes to one place, and that place is not forum-friendly. i will be the first to take my leave.

You're actually the second. I stopped first.

No point in continuing a debate when you are not speaking the same language.

[EvilOwl]

I was also going to stop here but there's one more thing:

Removing RP2 and IC2 is compensated with another mods.

 

Sidenote 1: After the IC2 guys wanted to sue Tonius (the Simple Jetpacks guy) I deleted all IC2 instances from my HDD.

 

Sidenote 2: After Eloraams 'awkward legal position' accusations with RP clones (like Project RED) and a line of disappearance abandoning support and development I would really reconsider using future RedPower versions for something more than a Creative world testing.

Edited August 27, 2014 by bochen415