What the heck is up with Buildcraft MJ?

[Captain Man]

I can very easily find out information about IC2's energy "EUs" but I cannot for the life of me find any official documentation about MJs from Buildcraft. All I can find is "Derp, Redstone is less than steam is less than combustion with oil is less than combustion with fuel and also they produce it quicker when they heat up but no numbers, you have to guess around."

If anyone knows could they either explain it to me or point me to some nicely done documents? Thanks guys!

[xxmikegigsxx]

The only Mjs I know are Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson so you may want to expand on that. As for engines, they power everything.I goes redstone<steam<combustion(oil)<combustion(fuel). Not much else to say but if there is a specific part you don't understand I'm pretty good with buildcraft so I could probably help.

[Wudzerivovneach]

I goes redstone<steam<combustion(oil)<combustion(fuel).

If you were to pay attention you would've instantly noticed that was exactly the answer Captain Man didn't want.

I'm curious about this myself, actually. I do know that redstone engines remove a single item per pump and oil engines (According to the wiki; I wouldn't know from personal experience but I do remember what was said.) remove an entire stack per pump. Coal engines, if memory serves, pull thirty-two items (half a stack) per pump. I'd think it reasonable to assume that their energy outputs as measured in the Buildcraft units would scale similarly. The thing about oil engines, according to what I recall, is that more powerful fuels and more heat** cause them to register every single "pump" (Might be compared to a "tick" for engines, an actual "engine tick." Like reactor ticks in IC2 are a real-world second as measure by the game, and EE machines possibly processing similarly on a second-by-second basis with some bits of code automatically "tweening" -- if that's at all the word I'm looking for -- between seconds to make it look like an instantaneous process, which would explain why it's said watches of flowing time on pedestals can only stack to a maximum of ten-fold speed for them. And of course, the vanilla game's ticks, a tenth of a second each.) at greater speed, i.e. with smaller time gaps in between. This is possibly why higher fuels output more, faster, in terms of mechanisms and piping power to those mechanisms.

This is theoretical, but I'd say that unless oil/fuel engines are ludicrously powerful in comparison to any others, coal engines with a steady supply of charcoal (Or coal if it's more effective; otherwise it should be preserved for carbon plates, its higher EMC value, and possibly other things I don't know yet.) being pumped in, arranged into arrays, would deliver equal or greater energy and run on resources that, thanks to EE, are limitless. The only real problem is space. And really, if you're horribly worried about space or your facilities being eyesores or some such, go many many kilometers away from spawn using rapid travel methods, leave a chunk loading block or twelve*, and pipe the output into a teleport pipe.

*Twelve times five is sixty, which in terms of chunks should be more than enough space to put all the technical systems of your base where you can't even see them due to distance. It will also commit genocide upon your computer's RAM and CPU if you're using low-end hardware already.

**ETA: Heat also makes the other two engines pump faster, I've heard. It doesn't even seem noticeable with redstone engines, and seeing as all I've used of Buildcraft so far is tubes, I haven't had a good reason do use the other two and consequently haven't.

[Tomprower]

If you were to pay attention you would've instantly noticed that was exactly the answer Captain Man didn't want.

I'm curious about this myself, actually. I do know that redstone engines remove a single item per pump and oil engines (According to the wiki; I wouldn't know from personal experience but I do remember what was said.) remove an entire stack per pump. Coal engines, if memory serves, pull thirty-two items (half a stack) per pump. I'd think it reasonable to assume that their energy outputs as measured in the Buildcraft units would scale similarly. The thing about oil engines, according to what I recall, is that more powerful fuels and more heat cause them to register every single "pump" (Might be compared to a "tick" for engines, an actual "engine tick." Like reactor ticks in IC2 are a real-world second as measure by the game, and EE machines possibly processing similarly on a second-by-second basis with some bits of code automatically "tweening" -- if that's at all the word I'm looking for -- between seconds to make it look like an instantaneous process, which would explain why it's said watches of flowing time on pedestals can only stack to a maximum of ten-fold speed for them. And of course, the vanilla game's ticks, a tenth of a second each.) at greater speed, i.e. with smaller time gaps in between. This is possibly why higher fuels output more, faster, in terms of mechanisms and piping power to those mechanisms.

This is theoretical, but I'd say that unless oil/fuel engines are ludicrously powerful in comparison to any others, coal engines with a steady supply of charcoal (Or coal if it's more effective; otherwise it should be preserved for carbon plates, its higher EMC value, and possibly other things I don't know yet.) being pumped in, arranged into arrays, would deliver equal or greater energy and run on resources that, thanks to EE, are limitless. The only real problem is space. And really, if you're horribly worried about space or your facilities being eyesores or some such, go many many kilometers away from spawn using rapid travel methods, leave a chunk loading block or twelve*, and pipe the output into a teleport pipe.

*Twelve times five is sixty, which in terms of chunks should be more than enough space to put all the technical systems of your base where you can't even see them due to distance. It will also commit genocide upon your computer's RAM and CPU if you're using low-end hardware already.

Damn, you really are a person that put tons of dedication to your writing

[Wudzerivovneach]

I'm flattered that you think so, really. Most people just say I ramble on and on about nothing important, including myself at times. Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case whatever. But this isn't relevant in the slightest, really.

[Captain Man]

I should've specified, MJ is what I think are the BC energy units standing for either Mega Joules or Minecraft Joules. I also think that the heat, as in what color your engine is operating at, specifies how often it sends out a "packet" of MJs. That would mean that higher temps do not mean more energy, only more power (For non-physics nerds, power = energy / time)

And I agree, no doubt an array of charcoal running Steam Engines is the cheapest way to get loads of energy (or, a slightly different route is to use Coal Coke which lasts twice as long as normal (char)coal).

Also, I believe what a "pump" is is a literal stroke of the BC engine. I actually really like that it so visual in that sense. You can visually see that every time the machine extends fully that the action (say, pumping out an item) happens. So when they heat up, they visually pump faster. Take a bunch of engines running in tandum (each powering the next) in a test world to see how the one in front heats up quick and consequently has a very fast and spazzy pump rate before it explodes (except Redstone Engines, but I am curious as to if people say they don't explode because they simply don't generate enough heat but can in tandum or if they literally will not due to the coding of them).

I'm guessing what Buildcraft energy does for machines like the Forester or Quarry (any machine in BC I think) that works block by block, is that the machines work at a speed that is a function of how much energy they have in them? So if your machines get loads of energy in a single pump or loads of small packets in one pump wouldn't matter, the machine basically says, "Look at that, I now have loads of energy so I'm going to run very quickly for a while until my next update to see how much energy I have received since I just started to speak." (I feel silly talking machines are a good way to explain things.)

I guess all I really care about is what this energy unit or power unit is called and how much each machine outputs/how much per one piece of coal/bucket of fuel, etc. etc. It just irks me that it's almost some kind of secret. Look at IC2 wiki, still not perfect, but every machine is pretty clear about it's output and input power and stuff. I like to know this stuff because I'm so freaking exact and literal with my designs.

[xxmikegigsxx]

what this energy unit or power unit is called and how much each machine outputs/how much per one piece of coal/bucket of fuel, etc. etc.

I don't think it is documented anywhere what the conversion chart is, the fuel to power, but there is a time one here http://minecraftbuildcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Steam_Engine ( sorry I don't know how to post a pic). That is because it varies, the first piece of coal in a steam engine will not provide as much energy as the last piece. That is because as they heat up they go faster. So for a redstone engine if you leave it running, because it heats up and goes faster, overtime it will produce more energy. Steam engines burn something and get hotter the longer they run. The hotter the faster, which means more energy a second. This same basic principle works for combustion engines.

[vibur]

I don't know how much it has changed (if at all) since then but here is some information from BC 2.2.

Redstone Engines release a maximum of 1 MJ every time they pump. They will never, ever explode. They will not transfer power to other engines.

Steam Engines release a maximum of 100 MJ per cycle. They will store a maximum of 10000 MJ and explode beyond that. They do not overheat and cannot be cooled. The amount of energy they store per cycle depends on the amount of energy used per cycle. Anything left over gets stored. Also:

1 Coal = 1600 MJ = 1600 cycles

1 Bucket o'Lava = 20000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Stick = 100 MJ = 100 cycles

1 Wood = 300 MJ = 300 cycles

Documentation says a stack of coal will last about 1 hour, 20 minutes.

Combustion Engines release a maximum of 2000 MJ per cycle. Storage maxes out at 100000 MJ. Every time they produce 1 MJ, they produce 1 <unit of heat>. Too much heat makes it go boom.

1 Bucket of Fuel = 600000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Bucket of Lava = 20000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Bucket of Oil = 200000 MJ = 10000 cycles

[ErusPrime]

I don't know how much it has changed (if at all) since then but here is some information from BC 2.2.

Redstone Engines release a maximum of 1 MJ every time they pump. They will never, ever explode. They will not transfer power to other engines.

Steam Engines release a maximum of 100 MJ per cycle. They will store a maximum of 10000 MJ and explode beyond that. They do not overheat and cannot be cooled. The amount of energy they store per cycle depends on the amount of energy used per cycle. Anything left over gets stored. Also:

1 Coal = 1600 MJ = 1600 cycles

1 Bucket o'Lava = 20000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Stick = 100 MJ = 100 cycles

1 Wood = 300 MJ = 300 cycles

Documentation says a stack of coal will last about 1 hour, 20 minutes.

Combustion Engines release a maximum of 2000 MJ per cycle. Storage maxes out at 100000 MJ. Every time they produce 1 MJ, they produce 1 <unit of heat>. Too much heat makes it go boom.

1 Bucket of Fuel = 600000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Bucket of Lava = 20000 MJ = 20000 cycles

1 Bucket of Oil = 200000 MJ = 10000 cycles

just for a heads up purpose, redstone and steam engines will not explode if there is only one of them attached (per side) and it has work to do.

[Captain Man]

When you say one attached per side do you mean one Steam Engine being powered by 5 other Steam Engines? Cause that sounds like it'd explode.

Also, vibur, you are my hero. Now that I have something to work off of I can find out some more numbers. Also, I just realized, coal smelts 8 things in a furnace, meaning 200MJ=The energy to smelt one item in a furnace because Lava Buckets smelt 100 and have 20,000MJ?

Sounds like we're making SCIENCE!

[vibur]

I'm not sure if there's any correlation between the energy something provides in a furnace and the energy something provides to BC engines other than wood is less than coal is less than lava. I wouldn't put too much thought into that.

[MechaCrash]

Here's some more numbers, at least as I keep them organized in my head.

• 
  [li]Redstone engines output one MJ per complete animation cycle. Use one for moving things through pipes, or use four to run a pump.[/li]
  [li]Steam engines, peat engines on normal peat, combustion engines on lava, and biogas engines on water are one MJ per tick.[/li]
  [li]Peat engines on bituminous peat (single player only), combustion engines on oil, biogas engines on milk, and electric engines produce two MJ per tick.[/li]
  [li]Biogas engines on seed oil (latest Forestry, not in Technic yet) produce three MJ per tick.[/li]
  [li]Biogas engines on biomass or combustion engines on fuel or biofuel produce five MJ per tick.[/li]
  

There's varying burn times of the assorted engines and fuels to take into account too, but I think "how long does it last" is less important than "how much power does it provide."

[milcondoin]

vibur, I think you have some numbers wrong.

Combustion Engine:

- Lava 1MJ/tick * 20000 ticks = 20000MJ

- Oil 2 MJ/tick * 10000 ticks = 20000MJ

- Fuel 5 MJ/tick * 50000 ticks = 250000MJ

- Biofuel 5 MJ/tick * 40000ticks = 200000MJ

Other information

Heat of a combustion engine:

1 MJ = 1 Heat. Heat >= 100000 = BOOM. Heat >49000 will consume water to cool with 1 bucket cooling 1000 heat.

Every time the piston of an engine fully extends, it will transfer up to its stored energy to the target. There are two conditions for the maximum. One is fixed for each engine type (Redstone 1, Steam 100, Combustion 500), the other is how much the target accepts at most in one go. A pump accepts only 10 MJ, a mining well 25, a builder 25, a filler 100, a quarry 25 while building the frame and 200 while digging, a refinery 25, a wooden liquid pipe 1, a wooden item pipe 64, and a wooden power pipe 1000.

The wooden power pipe will distribute its stored power slowly over time (but giving off power each tick), giving off more the more it has stored. This is why you want your fuel burning combustion engines powering a refinery connect to it via wooden power pipes instead of connecting directly, because otherwise a big part of the produced energy couldn't be used. On the other hand if you use wooden power pipes when they are not necessary, you will lose some energy due to power loss of the power pipes and the double -> int conversion when finally reaching the target machine.

Piston speed (pump every x ticks, thus bigger numbers are slower):

Redstone Engine:

Blue Heat: 100

Green Heat: 50

Orange Heat: 25

Red Heat: 13

Steam Engine:

Blue: 50

Green: 25

Orange: 13

Red: 7

Combustion Engine:

Blue: 25

Green: 20

Orange: 17

Red: 15

Piston colour of Redstone Engine and Steam Engine depends on stored power/max stored power (Redstone 1000 MJ max, Steam 10000MJ max). Combustion Engine depends on stored heat/max stored heat (100000 heat max).

Blue <= 25%

Green <= 50%

Orange <= 75%

Red <= 100%

KABOOM > 100%

[vibur]

vibur' date=' I think you have some numbers wrong.[/quote']

I freely admit that it's possible. The info I posted was lifted directly from the BC 2.2 PDF (yes, I am ashamed to admit I bought it) so a lot may have changed since then.

[Myrilla]

There was a mod that would print the amount of MJ (it just listed it as "Energy") an engine was producing per pump. It was a simple number displayed on the engine if you right clicked it. It also allowed you to right click redstone engines so you could see their energy.

I know DireWolf20 did a video about buildcraft engines and he had the mod I mentioned in it... can't find a direct link to the mod though.

[Naturam]

And in the big irony of it all the BC combustion engines are about ten times as unstable as a randomly thrown together IC nuclear reactor and a big mess at that.

A minecraft block has 6 sides.

The BC combustion engine needs

one side for water,

one side for fuel

one side for redstone power

and one side to actualy give the power it generates too.

BC contraptions look pretty bad to begin with but after its all set up they look like someone vomited in a lego bucket. On top of being prone to random explosions.

[xxmikegigsxx]

prone to random explosions.

If you aren't stupid they never explode. , but seeing how you are a Helen Keller it makes sense.

[Captain Man]

BC contraptions look pretty bad to begin with but after its all set up they look like someone vomited in a lego bucket. On top of being prone to random explosions.

Power pipes and teleport pipes. 'nough said.

But I do see what you're getting at.

But I do like Buildcraft.

At some point, no promises because I'm lazy and have other priorities, I intend on making a chart and maybe a video going over what we've learned in this marvelous thread.

We'll tear the mask off Buildcraft and stare at the face of SpaceToad.

I bet it's pipes all the way down.

[Naturam]

If you aren't stupid they never explode. , but seeing how you are a Helen Keller it makes sense.

Unless you turn in the wrong direction and a corner of a chunk that covers a piece of water pipe stops animating. Creating an air bubble in the water system that then makes all the engines overheat.

Or maybe the mod just doesn't feel that a combustion engine on a water pump is enough to provide water for 4 combustion engines that are six blocks away

Build craft has some nice ideas but if you have a normal size base and acquire water from not even a too remote location then the whole setup could blow up just from going into the wrong room.

However as support pipes for IC machines it works decently. I do feel that they could have cut down on the requirement for redstone engines everywhere. Those things look like crap.

Buildcraft has a lot of good concepts. I love the idea of pumping oil but the way its designed it requires enormous machine rooms to do on a more concentrated scale. While at the same time it punishes you for working on larger areas by requiring every single little piece to be animating to not make the whole system collapse.

Not to mention the combustion engines requiring water to not explode is completely unreasonable. Its a whole extra logistics nightmare and it makes wherever you take the water from look like ars because of how much water it takes.

[OmegaJasam]

Pump + infinite water supply and chunk load blocks says hello, (specificaly 3X3X1). Thats supposed to be perfectly stable.

But I must agree that it takes an awful lot of **** to run a buildcraft system. And combustion engines between the water, engines, and server laggyness have a /lot/ more potential fault points then most reactors.

The depressing thing is you can use geothermal or Water Mills for much more stable energy and convert it MUCH easyer then trying to use combustion engines.

You can run a Mark I or the safer Mark II's with a LOT less risk the a combustion engine X_X.

[Nethaufer]

I never had a problem with setting up two combustion engines to run a refinery. Actually, the only problem I did have, was that I made my building for it just a little too small, and the pipes kinda got in the way. It did look cool though because the pipes came in through the walls. I also had no problem adding in a third engine. It was a pain to get them synced up properly, but once I did that, my refinery was working pretty fast. I think I had to eventually turn it off because my fuel tanks filled up.

[Captain Man]

Pump + infinite water supply and chunk load blocks says hello, (specificaly 3X3X1). Thats supposed to be perfectly stable.

I honestly haven't done much with Buildcraft but I know how it works. I don't think a 3x3 1 deep pool of water is enough to keep a steady income of water necessarily. If you're pump is running freakishly fast (for whatever reason) it is entirely possible to take up too many source blocks. Think of it like if you were a freakishly fast clicker and had three buckets and took 3 out of the 4 of the typical 2x2 1 deep pool we all know and love for infinite water. If you could remove 3 before they updated, then it's impossible for the last to interact with another to make an additional source block.

[OmegaJasam]

I've found the entry on the wiki for pumps, and here it is.

Infinite Water

Place a pump above a 3 x 3 x 1 deep pool of water for infinite water. The pump must go above one of the four corners of this pool and can be powered by any set of engines you like - the pool will refill itself faster than it will drain, even at maximum pumping speed to empty Gold Waterproof Pipes.

a 2 x 2 x 1 deep pool will not work, as the pump will occasionally remove more water than the pool can generate. Larger non-square pools will run out as the pump will eventually take water from a block that won't refill itself properly, and this cycle will repeat until the pool is empty.

[Naturam]

I've found the entry on the wiki for pumps, and here it is.

Infinite Water

Place a pump above a 3 x 3 x 1 deep pool of water for infinite water. The pump must go above one of the four corners of this pool and can be powered by any set of engines you like - the pool will refill itself faster than it will drain, even at maximum pumping speed to empty Gold Waterproof Pipes.

a 2 x 2 x 1 deep pool will not work, as the pump will occasionally remove more water than the pool can generate. Larger non-square pools will run out as the pump will eventually take water from a block that won't refill itself properly, and this cycle will repeat until the pool is empty.

A better system would just be to do away with having to supply water to the engines entirely and just let us manage with fuel. One set of pipes to power en engine is enough for me thanks.

[Wudzerivovneach]

That's not very realistic, but for gameplay purposes I'd agree on that. Modders of Minecraft and games like it should learn to include options for details like these, like Dr. Zhark did, if you ask me. It makes things so much simpler than "Well, I think I've gotten rid of that annoying mechanic in the jar. Let's see if the game still works.... Nope. Time to re-install and try for the seventeenth time."