Technic Battles Redux

[Mooseman9]

I just say ban nukes altogether. They serve no purpose other than to grief. You can't mine with them (they destroy all blocks in the blast radius, without dropping items), and... well really that's it. There is no point to nukes other than to make a big boom.

You could use them to make an underground base in 10 seconds. :D

[andrewdonshik]

Well were I live the law is innocent until proven guilty. If you don't have definite proof he did it, don't ban him. Also for now you can ban nukes and later on in the server you can turn them on, once you are good with roll backs.

Fine, you have a point.

But how do you know the exact time it was griefed? for all you know someone went on and griefed and then told you it happened at a different time to confuse you and make a innocent player banned.

I leave. 30 min later, I log on and someone destroyed everything. You and creepist were the only people on at the time that would do so. Proof enough?

[xchampx13]

That's enough proof for saying the time, yes. But that is no proof I did it. It is kinda pissing me off now that I am still being blamed for this. I have never griefed any server, I never will grief any server. I have stated multiple times I have not done it, seriously if I would have done it, wouldn't I have fessed up already? I wouldn't fight this hard just to say oh ya I did it. If I were to login right now I would only have like a iron sword at the Quantum base, I wouldn't have had nearly enough supplies to nuke or do anything to your base anyway. also I wouldn't even know where to go to find it.

[andrewdonshik]

That's enough proof for saying the time, yes. But that is no proof I did it. It is kinda pissing me off now that I am still being blamed for this. I have never griefed any server, I never will grief any server. I have stated multiple times I have not done it, seriously if I would have done it, wouldn't I have fessed up already? I wouldn't fight this hard just to say oh ya I did it. If I were to login right now I would only have like a iron sword at the Quantum base, I wouldn't have had nearly enough supplies to nuke or do anything to your base anyway. also I wouldn't even know where to go to find it.

I get it, I'm unbanning you right now.

[nightrage]

so on a final note are we gonna have a reset or will the roll backs happening

[andrewdonshik]

so on a final note are we gonna have a reset or will the roll backs happening

Reset, probably tomorrow after I get home from school.

[GreenWolf13]

Reset, probably tomorrow after I get home from school.

Just in time for ny return to the server. see ya guys in the new world!

[gavjenks]

I just say ban nukes altogether. They serve no purpose other than to grief. You can't mine with them (they destroy all blocks in the blast radius, without dropping items), and... well really that's it. There is no point to nukes other than to make a big boom.

I have used many many nukes for non griefing purposes. For instance, the ender portal strongholds are not always where they geometrically should be, and eyes of ender do not work for all of them. The best solution is to start digging where the equations tell you it should be, and then set off about 20-30 nukes underground one by one until you find the actual stronghold somewhere nearby.

Nukes are also quite useful for excavating various shapes without counting stuff off by hand for hours. For example, if you want a large disc shaped room, place one nuke underground, and put double thick reinforced stone in a 5x5 or so disk above it and one below it, but leave the sides open. The taller the room, the further you offset the discs and the larger you make them. If you want a cone, you can save yourself huge amounts of time by encasing a nuke on all but one side.

Also, testing offensive nuke-based weapons, even if they are never used on anybody, is amusing and useful, because it is fun. E.g. if you want an in-character "weapons research" branch of your company, like when I made turtles that could fly autonomously to locations and nuke them on the old map. Shrug.

I don't think they should be permanently banned. I agree that they should be banned until we have rollbacks installed and tested, however.

Also, keep in mind that if you ban nukes, it is going to do very VERY little to stop griefing anyway. People use nukes now simply because they are the most convenient by a slight margin. If you ban them, the griefers will just bat an eyelash and switch right over to the slighyl less convenient, but equally destructive destruction catalysts / nova cataclysms. Or a catalytic lens. Or just plain old TNT (M-tech was effectively destroyed on the last map with plain TNT). Or fire, since a ton of people make bases out of wood. Or scatter lasers. Or half a dozen other things.

[banning stuff]

Yeah, with three people online, it's pretty silly to accuse one person for sure with no other evidence. Especially since there was no official knowledge of where everybody's bases were 100% for sure. Somebody could grief and then report it to deter suspicion. Somebody could just blow a huge hole in the ground somewhere as well as another person's base, and then say "Hey look I got griefed too (pretending the hole in the middle of nowhere used to be their base)." Etc. etc.

Also, since it is fairly well established on this server that the server gets reset after major nukings, that's yet another reason why you can't just assume the person who was griefed didnt do the griefing. A reset means everybody loses their bases anyway, so "He couldn't be the griefer, because he wouldn't want to lose his own base" doesn't make sense as an argument anymore. Anybody who wants to screw over EVERYONE else can simply nuke their own base and succeed in their goals by encouraging a reset.

This is why in addition to rollbacks, we should be installing basic logging plugins as well. So that it becomes much easier to see who did it, and then ban them, and then rollback, and it won't just get griefed again a day later by the same person.

so while i've been sitting here waiting for the light rail (Phoenix metro for the win!) I thought of a way we could mass produce and sell armour from iron to quantum (without using ee). there would even. be a way to sell things while we are offline, as i thought up a way to make sure people pay the right amount. it would be pretty tricky to set up, with the main concern being that it would be hard to guard the transport line

1) Why would people buy armor, when they could just make it themselves? Making armor is trivial and requires no special equipment and virtually zero time. Thus, for instance, diamond armor that takes 8 diamonds to make would cost about 8 diamonds at the armor shop... Why would I even take the time to walk there instead of just crafting my own?

The only things that make sense to sell are things that other people cant do themselves easily. The only two examples of this I can think of are A) industrialcraft crossbred crops and derivatives (coffee, beer), and railroad equipment (due to having to build expensive blast furnaces and such, and waiting a really long time). Possibly C) UU matter, but only very early in the game. After just a few days everyone will have their own UU sources.

2) A railroad system is really bulky and inefficient if you do want to move something. It would be vastly cheaper and easier to simply use personal safes and trade-o-mats, and manually restock the merchandise every so often...

Similar to alchemical pouches, safes store their inventory in player-specific files, and thus cannot be accessed by redpower filters or anything like that, and AFAIK are perfectly secure.

I'm not sure what happens if somebody else hooks up a trade-o-mat to your safe and tries to sell stuff for like 1 dirt. But even if that's possible, you could stop it by placing 5 other safes all around the first one. Much cheaper than making an entire railway tunnel out of safes...

[andrewdonshik]

-snip-

I see no reason to ban nukes whatsoever, because I have a TESTED backup plugin running backups maybe every 5 minutes. The reset thing isn't true anymore, and we'll get started tomorrow.

[gavjenks]

Sweet. 5 minutes is awesome-sauce. You tested it to work with e.g. worldedit too? If you have to revert the whole server it can get annoying and grief-y still, because if you dont happen to log on for a day, we lose a day of work (thus motivating griefers still). The local rollbacks only is a crucial component.

Oh also, another use for nukes I forgot:

At some point, I'd like to set up events on the server where we designate a pre-defined battleground out over the ocean in the middle of nowhere, and have un-manned airship battles between companies. And nukes would be a very important part of a robotic airship's arsenal. Especially since it might not know where its target is.

[GreenWolf13]

When I said transport line, I meant tubes, pipes, etc... Plus, if I charged 4 diamonds for a nano suit, wouldn't you buy it?

[andrewdonshik]

Sweet. 5 minutes is awesome-sauce. You tested it to work with e.g. worldedit too? If you have to revert the whole server it can get annoying and grief-y still, because if you dont happen to log on for a day, we lose a day of work (thus motivating griefers still). The local rollbacks only is a crucial component.

Augh, haven't tested that. Not sure how well that would work, but I'll try.

Also, testing offensive nuke-based weapons, even if they are never used on anybody, is amusing and useful, because it is fun. E.g. if you want an in-character "weapons research" branch of your company, like when I made turtles that could fly autonomously to locations and nuke them on the old map. Shrug.

Would that be the ICBTs? (InterContinental Ballistic Turtles?)

[gavjenks]

When I said transport line, I meant tubes, pipes, etc... Plus, if I charged 4 diamonds for a nano suit, wouldn't you buy it?

uh no. It costs 1 diamond, 8 redstone, and 56 coal.

A stack of coal isn't even worth a diamond, neither by EMC terms or by industrial IC2 diamond making.

And 8 redstone certainly isnt worth a diamond.

So I'd pay about 2 diamonds, probably. And that's assuming I can just have it delivered to my house (e.g. by enderchest). I'd pay less than it even costs to make it if i had to go travel somewhere for the thing.

Augh, haven't tested that. Not sure how well that would work, but I'll try.

All you do is right before rolling back, choose the relevant rollback time, zip it in winzip or whatever (if it isn't zipped already), and put it in worldedit/backups/ or whatever worldedit says to use on that page.

Then you can select the cuboid in game and type one command and it will roll back that one area. Very simple. But should still be tested.

Would that be the ICBTs? (InterContinental Ballistic Turtles?)

Lol, yeah. I actually tested them with TNT only, but to test certain things I never got aroudn to, I wouldve needed nukes.

[GreenWolf13]

When I say nanosuit, I mean the full set

of armour, not just the chest piece. I calculated, and it takes about 180 coal, 4 diamonds, 32 redstone, and a piece of glass. So 4 diamonds for it is a steal. And, I could probably code a turtle to come deliver the armour to your door. All you would have to do is either

a) go to one of the Quantum Enterprises stores, place an order, submit your payment, and tell the computer where to send the turtle (Quantum Enterprises will never use your coordinates for anything other than delivery of merchandise, and coordinates are not saved, meaning that your base us safe)

or

2)go to our main store, and wait there for delivery from our armour making plant. it may take a few minutes for the armour to arrive, so we have provided you with entertainment (turtles dancing, a computer console, and a wide selection on magazines.

All of these will be features implemented by Quantun Enterprises, at one point or another. gps turtles would require us to set up gps towers, so we may use something else, but basically, you pay 4 diamonds for something worth more than 4 diamonds. plus free shipping (if we can figure out how to do it, gos towers are very easy to grief).

[andrewdonshik]

uh no. It costs 1 diamond, 8 redstone, and 56 coal.

A stack of coal isn't even worth a diamond, neither by EMC terms or by industrial IC2 diamond making.

And 8 redstone certainly isnt worth a diamond.

So I'd pay about 2 diamonds, probably. And that's assuming I can just have it delivered to my house (e.g. by enderchest). I'd pay less than it even costs to make it if i had to go travel somewhere for the thing.

All you do is right before rolling back, choose the relevant rollback time, zip it in winzip or whatever (if it isn't zipped already), and put it in worldedit/backups/ or whatever worldedit says to use on that page.

Then you can select the cuboid in game and type one command and it will roll back that one area. Very simple. But should still be tested.

Lol, yeah. I actually tested them with TNT only, but to test certain things I never got aroudn to, I wouldve needed nukes.

That should work w/o issue. Just need to install wordedit!

[superg2009]

and not that it really matter as eu is easy to get i dont think it will be factored in for maceration and compressing eu is easy when you have mills or solars

[andrewdonshik]

and not that it really matter as eu is easy to get i dont think it will be factored in for maceration and compressing eu is easy when you have mills or solars

English, please?

[gavjenks]

When I say nanosuit, I mean the full set

of armour, not just the chest piece. I calculated, and it takes about 180 coal, 4 diamonds, 32 redstone, and a piece of glass. So 4 diamonds for it is a steal. And, I could probably code a turtle to come deliver the armour to your door. All you would have to do is either

a) go to one of the Quantum Enterprises stores, place an order, submit your payment, and tell the computer where to send the turtle (Quantum Enterprises will never use your coordinates for anything other than delivery of merchandise, and coordinates are not saved, meaning that your base us safe)

or

2)go to our main store, and wait there for delivery from our armour making plant. it may take a few minutes for the armour to arrive, so we have provided you with entertainment (turtles dancing, a computer console, and a wide selection on magazines.

All of these will be features implemented by Quantun Enterprises, at one point or another. gps turtles would require us to set up gps towers, so we may use something else, but basically, you pay 4 diamonds for something worth more than 4 diamonds. plus free shipping (if we can figure out how to do it, gos towers are very easy to grief).

Oh, well in that case yes, I would buy it I guess.

But how do you not go out of business, selling things for less than their raw materials? I guess for nano armor, nobody is gonna want that much, but you could never use such a business model for anything consumable.

Also, for placing orders, you don't need to have the person go to the store. My suggested system:

1) Each customer is told an ender chest code to use for your company. Could be one for the whole company, or perhaps a code for each customer if you want (since we don't have many players), whatever.

2) To place an order, you simply place the price of the item in the chest, using exact change. All items should be paid for in one standard currency (e.g. gold bars or whatever is small enough denomination for your cheapest stuff).

3) On the company's side of the setup, you have the corresponding ender chest, a transposer, an item detector, and a computer or RP counter circuit. It counts how many gold bars, for instance, were received. When a time tick has passed without any gold bars, it is assumed that's the end of the payment, and it looks up the price in a lookup table. Anything that is not a gold bar gets pumped back into the chest.

4) If the price matches any of the products for sale exactly, then the system pumps one of those items into the ender chest. It can stay there indefinitely, looping around, constantly being identified as a non-goldbar and then pumped back in (once every couple seconds or so)

4.5) If the price does NOT match with exact change, then round down to the nearest number of diamonds, for example, and pump it back into the chest. So if they paid 13 gold bars, and thats not the correct price for anything, they get 3 diamonds back. The remainder bars are your "restocking fee" =P. Alternatively, I guess you could just return them the same amount of gold in dust form or something, if you want to be nicer.

5) The customer, at their leisure, can pull the item out of the ender chest on their side as it loops through.

This system

- Does not require any coordinates to be shared at all

- Does not require any crazy infrastructure

- Should be fully secure, if each customer is given a separate ender code (unless the warehouse is raided DURING a transaction, of course)

- Is really easy and intuitive to use, and you can add a new customer without them even having to EVER visit your store (you can just /tell them their code over chat PM and they build an ender chest)

[andrewdonshik]

Oh, well in that case yes, I would buy it I guess.

But how do you not go out of business, selling things for less than their raw materials? I guess for nano armor, nobody is gonna want that much, but you could never use such a business model for anything consumable.

Also, for placing orders, you don't need to have the person go to the store. My suggested system:

1) Each customer is told an ender chest code to use for your company. Could be one for the whole company, or perhaps a code for each customer if you want (since we don't have many players), whatever.

2) To place an order, you simply place the price of the item in the chest, using exact change. All items should be paid for in one standard currency (e.g. gold bars or whatever is small enough denomination for your cheapest stuff).

3) On the company's side of the setup, you have the corresponding ender chest, a transposer, an item detector, and a computer or RP counter circuit. It counts how many gold bars, for instance, were received. When a time tick has passed without any gold bars, it is assumed that's the end of the payment, and it looks up the price in a lookup table. Anything that is not a gold bar gets pumped back into the chest.

4) If the price matches any of the products for sale exactly, then the system pumps one of those items into the ender chest. It can stay there indefinitely, looping around, constantly being identified as a non-goldbar and then pumped back in (once every couple seconds or so)

4.5) If the price does NOT match with exact change, then round down to the nearest number of diamonds, for example, and pump it back into the chest. So if they paid 13 gold bars, and thats not the correct price for anything, they get 3 diamonds back. The remainder bars are your "restocking fee" =P. Alternatively, I guess you could just return them the same amount of gold in dust form or something, if you want to be nicer.

5) The customer, at their leisure, can pull the item out of the ender chest on their side as it loops through.

This system

- Does not require any coordinates to be shared at all

- Does not require any crazy infrastructure

- Should be fully secure, if each customer is given a separate ender code (unless the warehouse is raided DURING a transaction, of course)

- Is really easy and intuitive to use, and you can add a new customer without them even having to EVER visit your store (you can just /tell them their code over chat PM and they build an ender chest)

Love the idea, but don't GPS turtle deliverymen sound a *little* cooler?

[superg2009]

tell the company any feedback on things like prices and other poilicies plus we want to know what the public will buy feedback needed

[GreenWolf13]

The idea of selling nano suits for 4 diamonds is that the production will be fully automated. with the nano suits coming straight from uu-matter geberates by solar arrays. so after initial setup, it would cost us nothing to make a nano suit. or any other armour (besides leather) for that matter. so in the end, we make a

profit. also, i was thinking something similar to your transposer method, but using filters and retrievers, so that it would only pull currency from the chest, and use an item detector and a counter to iniate the order (activate the redstone to turn on production). possibly have it wait to be sent until the client activates a confirmation lever, which activates an and gate that has the other input activted by the item detector counter. this releases the order into the ender chest, straight into the customer's waiting arms (it's a pun. armour, arms? ah, forget it). but i'd like to get a turtle delivery system set up. maybe have them do runs back and forth between a central delivery station and quantum enterprises factory? the only problem would be if they were followed...

[gavjenks]

Yeah following turtles is kinda a major problem, there.

Urist McGriefer orders 1 pair of woolen socks, follows turtle, and now has access to unlimited UU, etc.

Oh also, Andrew, speaking of locations and security, how do you feel about installing something like worldguard, and then simply making the entire End dimension a "secure" area, available only to mostly-trusted members of the community who have been around for a bit? Everyone else just gets teleported to spawn or something when they set foot there.

Just an idea, which would allow us to be a little looser about who we invite as new members, but still having a place to build nice pretty buildings and things without worrying about having to roll back every 4 hours when our nicest stuff gets destroyed.

Also, rollbacks wont fix miniblocks and things like that, so having a place like that offers additional security for delicate builds and machiery that rollbacks alone can't offer. If it WERE to be wrecked anyway, you'd still get your basic raw materials back and most of the block positions, but it would still be a good deal of work to fix complex or delicate things, so it'd be nice to have essentially a graylist/whitelist extra layer of trust like that.

The reason I suggest the End is that:

A) it's really easy to set up a worldguard location that covers all three entrances, and there's no other way to get in.

There's no resources (other than end stone) that you can ONLY get from the End, so it's not depriving "graylistees" from doing anything. Only depriving them of a little peace of mind and a place to build cool stuff without hiding underground from griefers.

[GreenWolf13]

Yeah following turtles is kinda a major problem, there.

Urist McGriefer orders 1 pair of woolen socks, follows turtle, and now has access to unlimited UU, etc.

Urist McGriefer? Of the fearsome McGriefer clan? I thought the McBans had wiped them out to the last man?

Edit: On a serious note, turtles are pretty cheap, so we could make it a one way trip (have the turtle deliver items, then go a safe distance away, then activate self destruct mode [place and activate tnt]. Any McGriefers that follow will be either killed or injured in the blast, or, if they survive unscathed, they will not know the location of our base.

[gavjenks]

Urist McGriefer? Of the fearsome McGriefer clan? I thought the McBans had wiped them out to the last man?

Edit: On a serious note, turtles are pretty cheap, so we could make it a one way trip (have the turtle deliver items, then go a safe distance away, then activate self destruct mode [place and activate tnt]. Any McGriefers that follow will be either killed or injured in the blast, or, if they survive unscathed, they will not know the location of our base.

Using example characters named "Urist Mc[topic of conversation]" is a trope from the dwarf fortress community =P

And the one-way turtle is an excellent idea. Just fly up to sky 250 and detonate, very clever. However, do note that it wouldn't be QUITE as cheap as you think. A turtle has to carry 2 world anchors or 3 teleport tethers to keep itself loaded unattended, which would also go up in flames, yes? Those cost gold and lapis, etc.

[GreenWolf13]

why not just pace world anchors along the turtle's route, but have them hidden?