Mod Copyright Discussion

[Cheap Shot]

Edit: This was part of some other thread that I think another mod split into a new topic. I think it was originally about copyrights or something. Sorry if the context broke I have no idea.

Woah this thread grew while I wasn't looking. Here's a long block of words that I suggest you read anyway. Reading is good for the brain and I'm a pretty reasonable person so this might answer some of your questions.

Here's some interesting parts of the Minecraft ToS. Some areas have been bolded by me to make them more eye catching and flirty.

Do not distribute anything we've made. This includes, but not limited to, the client or the server software for the game. This also includes modified versions of anything we've made.

We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't.

We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without notice, with immediate and/or retroactive effect.

Any suggestions made are assumed to be offered for free unless otherwise agreed before the suggestion was made.

http://www.minecraft.net/terms

Modders rights? Mojang gives them none. Anything that is based off minecraft and works in or around or near it exists on borrowed time. Every mod is built with a chain attached and Notch is holding them all, able to tug them back in at his leisure. Even if anyone thought they had grounds to take legal action against someone else, the only way you can sue someone in regards to copyright is through claiming for damages (read: lost revenue. None of them make revenue since they don't sell their mods as a product). Any of them who accept donations have made much more money since their technic inclusion then they ever had with adf.ly anyway. They'd have to try suing for reverse damages I guess.

"Your honor! I made too much money! Throw the book at them!"

And these problems never used to be problems before Minecraft. KakerMix is dead right when he likens the minecraft community to a poison environment. All the modders feel their mods are the next thing to a kings throne for them, and that if anyone else makes a mod, it's like splitting up THEIR kingdom. All the fans make snap judgements as quickly as they can. No one has their own opinions or the initiative to go learn about the things everyone is discussing. Modders are just people. They can be greedy, or egotistical, or selfish just like anyone else. Even more so really, considering the position they are in. People need to stop worshipping them and start thinking rationally, so we can have a positive modding community.

Emotional judgements are what starts the bandwagon rolling. Behind all the layers of outrage and whatnot there is actually very little drama. Just people keeping the fires going.

Honestly, all that happened was a personal modpack for friends escape Kakers control due to spotlight attention, and we've been doing our best to support it since it's something we believe to be a good thing. If we could have gotten permission right away we would have, but we couldn't have. Not with the way the community was when we started, and not in the accidental nature that the Technic pack started in. Now that Technic has been going for a good long while people are starting to understand the potential modpacks have, and we've been getting permissions. I truly wish we could get them all, and we are trying, but there are still a few modders left fanning the drama fire. Flowerchild isn't even in Technic anymore but the drama was too good for him to let go of and he's fanning the hardest.

We hope we do get full permissions some day. Until then we're making every effort to be more professional and reshape the community into something survivable. A community with bridges instead of walls.

Edit: I mean seriously. Able to make retroactive changes to the ToS, especially without having to notify anyone? If you don't know what retroactive means, google it and then understand why that's so insane and awful.

[Cheap Shot]

Actually if you don't know what that means I'll double post and tell you, then I'll probate myself for double posting.

Being able to retroactively change their ToS without having to inform you means that if you agreed to the minecraft terms of service (which we all did), they can go back and change what you agreed to, and then take action against you for violating the ToS. You'll have had no idea.

[Wudzerivovneach]

There's also the problem of legality across borders and all such. Retroactive things like that wouldn't apply in the US, (I think. 99% sure, though. There's a country somewhere or other, though.) as an example. Which is where the majority of Minecraft players probably are. Mojang is based in a northern European country somewhere, I think? Some countries would outright deny the entire ToS.

[OmegaJasam]

I /had/ something more constructive to say but then Cheap Shots creeper thing twice in a row was too much awsome creeper thing for me to remain functional *sadface*

On a serious note, this sort of thing has been going on with alll the mod packs. Yogbox and any other pack has found themselves stumped all because of a few dramaking mod makers that either want ad.fly pennys, or before that just wanting control and drama.

Normaly if someone trys to re-distribute free mods with compatability (or even balance) edits, no one bats an eye lid in normal communities. Most would prefur a quick heads up so they're at leats aware it's being done. I rememeber some of the overhaul mods for oblivion. Generaly, a sign of a good mod was /how meny large modpacks/ are you in. Not 'How much can I split the comunity by making them choose between my mod and all the others'

[Cheap Shot]

There's also the problem of legality across borders and all such. Retroactive things like that wouldn't apply in the US, (I think. 99% sure, though. There's a country somewhere or other, though.) as an example. Which is where the majority of Minecraft players probably are. Mojang is based in a northern European country somewhere, I think? Some countries would outright deny the entire ToS.

Another good point. Under Sweden's laws, modding is very shaky ground to begin with.

Normaly if someone trys to re-distribute free mods with compatability (or even balance) edits, no one bats an eye lid in normal communities. Most would prefur a quick heads up so they're at leats aware it's being done. I rememeber some of the overhaul mods for oblivion. Generaly, a sign of a good mod was /how meny large modpacks/ are you in. Not 'How much can I split the comunity by making them choose between my mod and all the others'

An extremely good example. Even though Elder Scrolls games mods are about 80% anime sex mods, their community is still better and more progressive then the Minecraft community. It's absolutely depressing.

[Tomprower]

Even though Elder Scrolls games mods are about 80% anime sex mods

I bet so many people just waited for the release to make mods of that kind but this is a video that someone made that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtwuqtCP8eM sad just sad

[jakj]

Even though Elder Scrolls games mods are about 80% anime sex mods, their community is still better and more progressive then the Minecraft community. It's absolutely depressing.

I just read this entire fucking thread, and my gods. Wow. I have only one thing to say, and I'll never look back at this again:

When I see a mod that makes me tingle, and then suddenly realize it's not compatible with Technic because of X or Y for no good reason, I simply stop caring. I don't look to see if there's an easy third-party fix, and I don't look to see if it's worth fiddling with. I just can't be bothered.

Averaging out my cost per day that I'm currently paying for online games that I've not even logged into since I started playing Technic SSP 6, I'm out almost $20 and climbing. And I don't have to have my nose up anyone's ass to give honest praise like that.

Gah.

[hindos]

Actually if you don't know what that means I'll double post and tell you, then I'll probate myself for double posting.

Being able to retroactively change their ToS without having to inform you means that if you agreed to the minecraft terms of service (which we all did), they can go back and change what you agreed to, and then take action against you for violating the ToS. You'll have had no idea.

So if i were to make a mod with the current ToS and then they change the ToS my mod could suddenly be pulled away and taken as property of mojang?! Wow they really need to change their terms of service.

I used to mod oblivion, and I disagree with 80% sex mods, yes theres a lot of those weird sickos making such mods but there were waaay more town, houses, etc mods then their ever was of those. However , like minecraft, the community has been corrupted by that stupid nexus website with their absurd terms and voting system(all the popular mods suck...). The same is happening to skyrim... In truth I don't think there's any large games which don't have corrupted modding behind them due to companies like curse trying to make as much profit as possible rather then concentrate on actually improving the game the mods are for. The only places where you ever see good nice communities are with more small time moddable games, like creeper world.

The legal stuff and copyright is indeed all bullocks, but modders can little but try to give themselves the illusion of control and the only function it gives is to cause useless arguments and set a form of functioning in the community which has grounds on.... nothing. I think the only way you can get a truly honest , nice, and functionin community is if you keep it small time with enforced and well thought out rules. All large communities are doomed to the flaws in humanity(which can be controlled to a extent in small communities) it's truly impossible to have a one million member modding community without 'parties', douches, and the arrogant.

Anyway it seems we're all sceptical to humanity in the end, we're all quick to judge. Indeed, one assumes that I magicly know everything you do about how the modding community works, whilst in truth i was still ignorant to bash down on this is truly unrational. As you see I am quite capable of using correct grammar and such, but I choose not to due to it being invalid and useless point in any argument which many back-down upon when at loss.

Finally, I think this thread should be lock before we start a forum war and the whole discussion gets out of control. All the opinions and facts are there on this thread, now just awaiting the proper patient eye to read them. For this reason could someone lock and sticky the thread please , so others may learn from what has been discussed here? (this is a suggestion not a order, before i get bashed down upon that as well... ).

[Cheap Shot]

As you see I am quite capable of using correct grammar and such, but I choose not to due to it being invalid and useless point in any argument which many back-down upon when at loss.

???

I'm not too worried about some war starting. People stopped caring about this drama a while ago. The only people who would pick up a sword and blast the war horns are the people who wouldn't be caught dead on this site anyway due to "principals".

[Wudzerivovneach]

Ah yes, I remember when I was still in early grade school and likened the principal to an almighty and vaguely malevolent entity.

... Oh wait, they meant the other kind and just don't know how to spell, didn't they?

[vibur]

So if i were to make a mod with the current ToS and then they change the ToS my mod could suddenly be pulled away and taken as property of mojang?! Wow they really need to change their terms of service.

No, they can take it now without changing the current ToS and they won't change their ToS. Yes, it sucks but there's nothing anyone can do about it. Just carry on and hope they continue choosing not to enforce it.

In truth I don't think there's any large games which don't have corrupted modding behind them due to companies like curse trying to make as much profit as possible rather then concentrate on actually improving the game the mods are for. The only places where you ever see good nice communities are with more small time moddable games, like creeper world.

Curse isn't in the business of improving games. They provide a service for which there is obviously a demand. While I'm not the biggest fan of Curse, I don't think you can lay the blame for the cesspool the modding communities have become at their feet.

As you see I am quite capable of using correct grammar and such' date=' but I [b']choose not to due to it being invalid and useless point in any argument which many back-down upon when at loss.

I have seen no evidence towards that conclusion as of yet.

Also, expressing yourself so that others can easily understand you is neither invalid nor useless. It is an essential part of communicating which you have failed to grasp. What I fail to grasp is how anyone who desires to have his/her opinion be heard would choose to do so in such a manner.

Finally, I think this thread should be lock before we start a forum war and the whole discussion gets out of control. All the opinions and facts are there on this thread, now just awaiting the proper patient eye to read them. For this reason could someone lock and sticky the thread please , so others may learn from what has been discussed here? (this is a suggestion not a order, before i get bashed down upon that as well... ).

No post in this thread is even in the same ball park as a forum war or getting out of control. If the discussion is too intense for you, for some reason, just don't read it. I promise you no one will feel insulted if you choose not to participate.

[JackNapierX]

So if i were to make a mod with the current ToS and then they change the ToS my mod could suddenly be pulled away and taken as property of mojang?! Wow they really need to change their terms of service.

They did this with Pistons

[vibur]

This is true.

Also, keep in mind, Blizzard has been incorporating mods into the default UI for WoW for years. I think you'll find that it's par for the course with any moddable software.

[Rooster]

IIRC, the piston mod getting baselined was actually a voluntary thing the guy asked for and Jeb agreed to do.

[7rex]

Not being a modder i can't say for sure but having your mod or idea included in Vanilla should be an honor.

[linkthegamer]

They did this with Pistons

From what i heard they got permission from the modder to add pistons then rewrote the code themselves. They did not out and out steal it (unless i have been misinformed). That nasty little bit of text in the ToS is likely a loophole cover mechanism then some type of active mod stealing weapon. A lot of stuff uses wording just like that, mainly so they if something comes to light that needs an immediate addendum they to do not have to send notice to everyone with a Minecraft.net account and any thing created prior or right at conception is able to sneak past.

From my base understanding of the legal system most vague wording or overpower statements tend to be what i deem the "cover our arse" text and is simply so that people have a harder time doing undesired actions with your code.

As far as I can tell Mojang AB is not going to kill mods, that would be just stupid. Mojang AB has so far been a benevolent company and has not neither Jeb_ nor Notch seem like backstabbing dickbags. Also that ToS is, I believe, the same ToS I signed up under and really I don't think they planned for modding then anyhow. They once mentioned alphas would get free all the future updates and addons, now addons is vague and just mean any code that wasn't an update of existed code or they might have figured they would be making the mods themselves (this is just speculation on my part). Ever read the ELUA or ToS for other things, they have lots of fun lines, like "Not to be used for exhibition or pay to play" and "Illegal uses include reverse engineering" (which if you don't know is figuring out how something works in order to remake it). If i remember right there are even some nasty things on software like, by opening this box or proceeding past this screen you agree to this ELUA and all future version regardless of prior notification. I will be honest, I only read those things when I get bored and don't really remember and likely some of that is hearsay. The point is I don't thing the minecraft ToS is that odd... other then it is easy to read and doesn't use a ton of big law words.

Which brings up a few questions, does Mojang even have a Legal department of any kind and do modders only use those "Copyright" things that curse (or some user... can't remember) provides?

[hindos]

From what i heard they got permission from the modder to add pistons then rewrote the code themselves. They did not out and out steal it (unless i have been misinformed). That nasty little bit of text in the ToS is likely a loophole cover mechanism then some type of active mod stealing weapon. A lot of stuff uses wording just like that, mainly so they if something comes to light that needs an immediate addendum they to do not have to send notice to everyone with a Minecraft.net account and any thing created prior or right at conception is able to sneak past.

From my base understanding of the legal system most vague wording or overpower statements tend to be what i deem the "cover our arse" text and is simply so that people have a harder time doing undesired actions with your code.

As far as I can tell Mojang AB is not going to kill mods, that would be just stupid. Mojang AB has so far been a benevolent company and has not neither Jeb_ nor Notch seem like backstabbing dickbags. Also that ToS is, I believe, the same ToS I signed up under and really I don't think they planned for modding then anyhow. They once mentioned alphas would get free all the future updates and addons, now addons is vague and just mean any code that wasn't an update of existed code or they might have figured they would be making the mods themselves (this is just speculation on my part). Ever read the ELUA or ToS for other things, they have lots of fun lines, like "Not to be used for exhibition or pay to play" and "Illegal uses include reverse engineering" (which if you don't know is figuring out how something works in order to remake it). If i remember right there are even some nasty things on software like, by opening this box or proceeding past this screen you agree to this ELUA and all future version regardless of prior notification. I will be honest, I only read those things when I get bored and don't really remember and likely some of that is hearsay. The point is I don't thing the minecraft ToS is that odd... other then it is easy to read and doesn't use a ton of big law words.

Which brings up a few questions, does Mojang even have a Legal department of any kind and do modders only use those "Copyright" things that curse (or some user... can't remember) provides?

Mojang has talked with lawyers but I don't think they aheva full-time group of lawyers to back em up, maybe one though. Also word of advice, it's good to have a friend that is a lawyer .

In regards to why I choose to not use the best of grammar , it is because I don't want to sound like a smart-ass , since that can be quite mean to some people. Lack of english is a form of english 8) .

Maybe the word 'war' was a bit over the top, but you get my general drift . Maybe the word 'argument' is better suited. I just wish people could have normal civilicsed discussions with varying opinions without people becoming so hostile.

Also when referencing to curse, it is trying to make profit by hosting something that is needed. I'm not rolling all the blame to them, I'm just saying that in their effort to make more money they don't allways do what's better for their users. On the point of corrupution in communities in general I'd say that the reason is fools/noobs following the every word of some 'genuis' creator, who thinks they're up in the sky and think only of their own opinion and that everyone should agree upon them on it.

Also damn you youtube... damn you...

Anyway back to spacetoad going outta buisness, anyone know what kind of plans his replacements have? I wonder what other cool stuff buildcraft will have added :)

[Ragnar Homsar]

Split this off from the Spacetoad topic because this was getting waaaay off topic. In any case we're treading on very shaky ground, so if anyone posts like an idiot you'll get a 3-day-probation courtesy of me!

[hindos]

Well anyway I'm satisified knowing you're trying to get permissions now , so good luck to technic 8)

[Blacktooth]

Ever read the ELUA or ToS for other things, they have lots of fun lines, like "Not to be used for exhibition or pay to play" and "Illegal uses include reverse engineering" (which if you don't know is figuring out how something works in order to remake it). If i remember right there are even some nasty things on software like, by opening this box or proceeding past this screen you agree to this ELUA and all future version regardless of prior notification. I will be honest, I only read those things when I get bored and don't really remember and likely some of that is hearsay. The point is I don't thing the minecraft ToS is that odd... other then it is easy to read and doesn't use a ton of big law words.

Which brings up a few questions, does Mojang even have a Legal department of any kind and do modders only use those "Copyright" things that curse (or some user... can't remember) provides?

Curse is horrible and a major contributor to the drama. Copyright is automatic, and there is no need to make a declaration. Curse claiming that these notices that they suggest affords the authors any sort of extra protection is plain wrong. What Curse and the majority of the community are confused about is the difference between copyright and licensing. Licensing is a whole other kettle of fish dealing with contract law, and not one single entity in the MC community has come even close to getting it right. Not even Mojang.

Until there is some glimmer of sanity the best option is to donate to your favorite mod authors, and ignore all of the blustering.

[Cheap Shot]

Ah yes, I remember when I was still in early grade school and likened the principal to an almighty and vaguely malevolent entity.

... Oh wait, they meant the other kind and just don't know how to spell, didn't they?

I'm glad someone caught that joke. There's hope here yet!

Now on another note, I was almost certain this was part of another thread about spacetoad. Did someone else split it into a new topic or did I? I honestly don't remember doing that.

[hindos]

I'm glad someone caught that joke. There's hope here yet!

Now on another note, I was almost certain this was part of another thread about spacetoad. Did someone else split it into a new topic or did I? I honestly don't remember doing that.

Ragnar did , So let's discuss about all this copyright bullocks. How do you guys think we can get a message to all the modders over so that they realise it's pointless?

[OmegaJasam]

Ragnar did , So let's discuss about all this copyright bullocks. How do you guys think we can get a message to all the modders over so that they realise it's pointless?

If the gentle informing approach doesn't work, you simply make a similar but superior mod by listening to what the community wants, encourage it's inclusion in mod-packs(Because you would never not want that if you were sane), set up a sensable donation scheme and then when your mod takes over the entire market and is making sums with extra 0's on the end compared to theirs, You say quite explicitly the things you did and they didn't.

They either rage quit and we're down one modder who was more harm to the community then the good they do with content, or the clue by 4 makes them a better person.

Either way there's an excellent mod as a result. (yes, I know this method is incredibly intensive, but honestly, their just that stubborn a lot of the time)

Unfortunately, a lot of them just need to grow up, or won't change.

The golden rule is generally 'Is this a positive action that's improving the situation for myself and the community'. Your much better off trying to improve the status quo, then to trying to insult, deflame and other negative actions.

[hindos]

If the gentle informing approach doesn't work, you simply make a similar but superior mod by listening to what the community wants, encourage it's inclusion in mod-packs(Because you would never not want that if you were sane), set up a sensable donation scheme and then when your mod takes over the entire market and is making sums with extra 0's on the end compared to theirs, You say quite explicitly the things you did and they didn't.

They either rage quit and we're down one modder who was more harm to the community then the good they do with content, or the clue by 4 makes them a better person.

Either way there's an excellent mod as a result. (yes, I know this method is incredibly intensive, but honestly, their just that stubborn a lot of the time)

Unfortunately, a lot of them just need to grow up, or won't change.

The golden rule is generally 'Is this a positive action that's improving the situation for myself and the community'. Your much better off trying to improve the status quo, then to trying to insult, deflame and other negative actions.

That's actually exactly what i'm going to do with my modding journey , and if the mod idea folds out as I hope it'll definetly be a big hit :)

[Cheap Shot]

Anyone who thinks a difference can be made by joining together and raising their voices are usually right, but in this situation you'd find yourselves worse off then before. The best way you can make a positive change in this community is by not giving two shits about anything anyone shouts about. Playing mods you like, donating to the mods authors, and posting publicly about the things you like is what everyone should be doing. The more you get angry and worked up, the faster this community spirals down the drain. We've had more luck getting permissions recently since everyone stopped caring about FlowerChild and realized he's just a huge ass. Technic is THE way to play minecraft. Two out of two Yogs agree. People are catching on that modpacks are the best way to do things when your target audience is a community like this. The modders will just be the last to figure it out. We hope by being reasonable and helpful they'll come around and see things in a more positive light.

I mean we love the hell out of MC drama. It's the most entertaining kind of drama. But we'd love to have technic become more then it is.