Removing IC2 and RP3 wasn't fully compensated

[Hyperwræth]

Edit: OP's been edited

 

So around a year ago I played tekkit extensively, and now I'm considering returning because I found it quite fun. The first thing that surprised me, of course, is the removal of IC2 and RP3 from the modpack, 2 very core mods. As I continued researching the changes, I found out that most of what was in IC2 was supposed to be in Thermal Expansion or MineFactoryReloaded (both mods I knew pretty well); I tried to be understanding, however I feel like multiple key aspects are missing. 

 

#1 Sources of Power

 

IC2 had a bunch of generators that ran on things other than coal, lava, and fuel. The one's I'm probably going to miss the most are going to be the renewable ones, like the watermill, that was always reliable and could supply a small steady stream of power after being hooked up to a BC pump. (Edit) IMO, it wasn't cheap or OP; it was a reward for moving beyond coal generators to form something sustainable (but unable to power the next voltage up). Above all, I'm going to miss the Nuclear Reactors(Edit: yeah didn't know about 'big reactors.' that mod looks pretty elaborate too >.<). Those things added a certain skill element in the game in getting them working without loosing your house, and they reworded you with colossal amounts of electricity. And the other thing IC2 provided are a myirad of machines that can actually use all the different levels of power. Which brings us to our next point...

Note: Extra Utilities will somewhat remedy the lack of generator options

 

#2 Machines, doing stuff you can't normally do, higher level machines, and more distinct levels of power

 

IC2 just added so many machines to the game, and the thing I liked about them opposed to MFR and TE is that they mostly did things you couldn't do yourself. In fact, that was the whole idea behind both buildcraft and minefactory reloaded: automate all the things you have to do in vanilla minecraft so Steve doesn't have to budge a muscle. Adding things you can't do in normal minecraft sort of adds a dimension to the game. IRL, humans did advance in technology and make stuff with the new machines they you couldn't in the caveman age. From the current mods we do have the electric furnace, pulverizer, and a half****d compressor (from galacticraft), but having the extractor and the (normal) compressor demonstrates what I wrote above, and then there are the machines that eat up a lot of power. Stuff like the terraformer and the teleporter were really cool, and you don't have those super advanced machines in TE and MFR. They also don't properly 'tier' as well, if you get what I'm saying. Buildcraft sort of does with 3 levels of engines and a mining well vs. quarry and such, but TE and MFE all feel like they're stuck at level one. When you went up a voltage level in IC2, you really knew it. You had to replace your batbox with an MFE (IIRC), get thicker wires and then you could get medium voltage machines and play with transformers so the lower ones were still usable. It felt like actual progress and it facilitated the fun. 

 

(Edited in) #2.5 Specifically Distinct Power Levels

 

The way the IC2 electricity system was distinctively divided into the 4 power categories gave the player a good feel of where they are on the grand scheme of technology; how much is ahead of them, and how much they've accomplished. Literally everything in a factory have to be upgraded, but generators and machines were at the crux of it. This is something I'm not sure the redstone flux system will be able to replicate. Not only would we need higher level versions of the core machines (pulverizer) but this would be an opportunity for new kinds of machines to do high-level stuff. IC2 is basically the perfect model for what machines there should be at each level (so more stuff like teleporters and terraformers). The higher level generators are sorta there with the combustion engines, nuclear reactors and certain dynamos when given particular fuels. One of the things I'm not sure if the current system can handle is transformers; if the game is ever going to truly have more distinctly tiered voltages, then it would be capable of having them. Overall, what more distinct power levels added was a more certain path of progression, rather than wandering around wondering what you should build next, if you get what I'm saying, something like that is important in any game/mod. (Edit) Hmm the way that there are 3 different wires might suggest that TE might expand more on their individual power levels. Lastly, I appreciated how IC2 had a more elaborate endgame with more high level machines and equipment... which coincidently brings us to our next point. 

 

#3 Power Items

 

Just like lacking power machines, we're also lacking rewarding powerful endgame items and weapons. Now I understand that the quantum suit was ridiculous, but that's not what I'm asking for. There should be something a step down from that to facilitate getting rewarded for advancing in technology. Just some armor different from the modular power armor that you can only make after making all the technological advancements, then some cool electric tools(Edit: This seems to be somewhat remedied by Redstone Arsenal; still looking for things beyond the basic tools). Things like the chainsaw and the mining laser that we had in IC2, as well as the light swords, and of course the nuke. (Edit) IC2 just had that awesome myriad of non-basic electrical tools... I really hope the redstone arsenal could some day live up to what it was. 

 

#4 Something minor: The Frame Motors

 

At least the block placer and breaker was replaced by MFR. However the frames and frame motors from Red Power were a pretty powerful part of the game. Being about to create structures that moved automatically opened up so many possibilities.(Edit: OK yeah covered by redstone in motion)

 

And lets not forget Wireless Redstone. Where did it go? Nothing like it is in MFR. It was necessary for controlling stuff from far away, things encased inside something (I will miss you Modular Force Fields), and stuff traveling around on one of those fancy frame motor platforms.  Edit: Didn't know that "Chicken Chunks" meant wireless redstone >.<

 

Now that I remembered Modular Force Fields, I remember what a great endgame item they were. Required tons of power, but were completely indestructible. Actually manage to build one of those things, and you don't have to worry about your nuclear reactor blowing up your house, and in SMP, it was a completely foolproof way of avoiding people from stealing and trying to blow up your house with a nuke and that jerk who dropped some white decay in the overworld. Also creating light bridges and the such. Forcefields were definitely a fun part of the game. EDIT: Someone said they they're still here... they were an extension of IC2 so were they updated to also work with MJ now? Sorry I haven't had time to play much of the new Tekkit.

 -----

Sidenote: remove EE3. I know its nothing like the EE2 we had a year ago but it really doesn't fit with the technological theme. Alchemy =/= industry. It just provides cheap ways to convert all your cobblestone into diamonds you really shouldn't have yet, and the such. (Edit) If EE3 is mostly necessary for making those high-demand ender pearls... maybe there's something else to make that go more smoothly, or maybe the mod that eats up enderpearls could be rebalanced. 

 

Conclusion

 

There are definitely a lot of things in IC2 and RP3 that weren't compensated by the new mods. I'm not asking for you guys to put the mods back in; someone should make a mod with all this stuff in it, to compensate for all the things we used to have, without having the multiple power systems and redundant machines that IC2 was removed for. 

 

I'm going to quote myself here, because I selfishly like what I wrote.  

 

...I believe a few of my points still remain valid. As Curunir explained, I know that the modpack has its limits and that its probably best off the way it is, but if there was only some way to fill in the gaps that are left... I just feel like the gaps were core. They were pretty significant parts of the game, particularly my argument on how the game advances, it felt like there was more progress and steps when IC2 was in the game. 
 
I'm not sure how well the redstone flux system can mimic IC2's electricity... I mean its not like there are well defined medium and high voltage systems ya'know? By systems I mean different levels of generators and useful machines.

 

 

Let me know if there is something missing, or something I mentioned is actually made up in some way. Edit: Yeah looks like I missed a lot. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[redsector]

Let me know if there is something missing, or something I mentioned is actually made up in some way.

 

All right!

 

 

 

IC2 had a bunch of generators that ran on things other than coal, lava, and fuel. The one's I'm probably going to miss the most are going to be the renewable ones, like the watermill,

 

Yeah, some people would call that "overpowered". In IC2, you just had to plop down solar panel after solar panel, then combine them to more advanced and compact solar panels, put down some of these and then some more (or windmills, watermills, whatever). Added a few energy cells as buffers for the night and you never had to worry about power generation again. Honestly, the easy, no-brained energy generation is the one thing from IC2 that I don't miss at all.

 

About variety, there's the reactant dynamo that runs on a whole lot of different stuff - sludge, sugar, gunpowder, glowstone and other kinds of weird crap (including literal crap i.e. sewage) in any combination of solid and liquid. And we still have biofuel from MFR. Then there's those generator thingies from Extra Utilities. I never use them, but they seem to provide even more options. (edit: out current EU version doesn't have them.)

 

 

Above all, I'm going to miss the Nuclear Reactors.

 

Big Reactors. I agree that they lack the risky aspect of nuclear power and should be dangerous in some way if built improperly (overheating etc.), but I think those features are planned. Though I have to admit that the IC2 reactos were indeed very cool.

 

 

TE and MFE all feel like they're stuck at level one.

 

Agreed on the whole technological progession thingy, the three energy tiers are bit lackluster. But other than that, IC2 didn't have that much that TE or MFR don't provide either.

 

 

some cool electric tools.

 

Redstone Arsenal (flux-infused tools). Okay, so they don't provide the different firing modes the mining laser had (which were also kinda cool, I have to agree), but well... their purpose is easier and faster mining, and they do that well enough.

 

 

However the frames and frame motors from Red Power were a pretty powerful part of the game. Being about to create structures that moved automatically opened up so many possibilities.

 

Redstone in Motion is still in Tekkit, to be replaced by the newer Remain in Motion fork in upcoming versions.

 

 

And lets not forget Wireless Redstone. Where did it go?

 

Didn't go anywhere.

 

I will miss you Modular Force Fields

 

Neither did those.

 

 

Aaaaand, finally...

 

Sidenote: remove EE3.

 

Yeah, I don't like it either. Though removing it from the pack yourself is as easy as deleting the EE3 jar file from the mods folder, so I really don't care if they want to stick with it for some reason.

Edited August 20, 2014 by redsector

[Roversword]

This was covered sooo many times in this forums. Sooooo many times.

 

Please correct if I am wrong, but...when Tekkit (the actual one right now, based on minecraft 1.5.2 and 1.6.4 respectively) was put together, IC2 was not under development and was considered abandoned. It did not work with those newer versions of minecraft.

This was surely one of the reasons it was not included in Tekkit.

 

IC2 is gone and with it all its possibilities. The other mods that took its place (TE and MFR) are not exact replacements, and they will never be (or should be IMHO).

Now, you say you are missing stuff? Well, of course you do. IC2 is not there anymore.

 

If you want to play with a newer version of Tekkit I am afraid you just have to deal with this. Learn new, accept the changes.

If you do not want to do that...make your own modpack. I did...I wanted some mods gone and some added, it takes some time, but it is possible...at least for the most part.

If you do not want to do that either....take Tekkit Lite or Tekkit Classic and play with it. Nothing stops you. They still exist and run. Pretty easy.

 

If neither of those options suit you, then...well...what else can be done? Is the only option really to ask that all of IC2 should be compensated? Hardly, IMO.

 

Now, let me get back to you on that wall of text...

1) Power

You want it easy by having unlimited power (even if it is not as much) by simply placing a block....well, sorry. Does not work anymore. You actually have to automate things which are mid- and end-game things.

It is very easy to get power early game with steam dynamos. And you can even semi-automate them, at least to a certain degree rather early.

We still have nuclear reactors....!

 

2) Machines

Yes, you can not "update" the machines of TE and MFR as much as in IC2. You are right. That is gone. You may "upgrade" the MFR stuff to a certain degree (and Steves Carts, etc.), but not the TE machines.

However, you have several tiers as well...leadstone, hardened and redstone.

Trust me, if you build big enough you will see a difference (and need that difference) of those tiers. You can not provide enough power to a dozen machines with a leadstone, you need more. Upgrading to different tiers are very much possible and there!

 

3) Power items

I fail to see how MPS is not what you are asking for...it is not a quantum armor, but not really early game either. You need another choice next to the quantum suite that...well, is better? more expensive?

Yes, the some tools are gone....you are right. Some were added (redstone arsenal?).

However, I do understand you there. IC2 offered some nice tools. Then again....my three options still persist

 

4) Frame motors

Sorry, you lost me there...my bad

 

As for EE3...yes, I would also love to see it canned. I agree with you here. However, that would make it absolutely hell to obtain certain things, because ender pearls are needed rather often.

There are surely solutions (eg. mob essence and then slaying ender men), however, it would make it very difficult.

So, yes...I personally use it for getting ender pearls at the beginning. But that is not really an invasive mod (anymore), so using is your own choice rather than not.

 

Well, so much for my opinion

[FyberOptic]

As previously mentioned, you can still run Tekkit Classic and use all of those old mods.  I still very much enjoy that pack from time to time.  Even Tekkit Lite still has IC2 and RP2, but I think I'll always have a softer spot for Classic.  The game just felt different back in the 1.2.5 days.

 

Anyway, IC2 is a bit of a stickler.  The active version is referred to as IC2 Experimental, which basically changed most of the recipes and involves a lot of microcrafting, but adds a lot of new machines.  A number of people hate it, other people just found other mods they prefer instead.  I personally try to like it, but it's hard when it's not well documented.  Alternatively, there's a version referred to as IC2 Classic, basically Minecraft 1.4.7's version ported by Immibis to run on even as new as Minecraft 1.7.x.  It's always fun.  

 

RP2 was just gone after Minecraft 1.4.7.  Parts of it have been faithfully cloned by various mods, like Red Logic, and similar to IC2 there were some more direct ports of the original mod which drew a lot of community ire so they vanished pretty quickly.  But there's so many mods which can replicate nearly all of the functionality just as well if not better than RP2, so it's just a matter of learning some new mods, for the most part.  Eloraam came back in recent months and is working on an RP3, but that will probably be a ways off.  

[Hyperwræth]

OK guys thanks for the intelligent responses. I updated the OP with the changes. Sadly I haven't had much time to play the new Tekkit, looks like I missed quite a bit of information here. Still getting used to the changes and all the new mods >.<

Edited August 20, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[FyberOptic]

Yeah it's always daunting to have to learn a bunch of new mods, but you can start with what you know and take the other mods one step at a time if necessary.  Luckily Technic tends to always have a nice wiki for their packs to help with that.

Edited August 20, 2014 by FyberOptic

[Curunir]

Well, at least that was an elaborate rant for once.

 

I agree that Tekkit as a whole lost some things when IC2 had to be dropped. But it also gained a lot, and I would not give up the new things we have now to get old IC2 back.

 

The problem is: Tekkit is a modpack, nothing more. Tekkit staff can only take from the pool of available and compatible mods, and those choices are sometimes limited. I'm sure if somebody had made a kind of "IC2 Reloaded" in time, they would have included it. But nobody did. At least not to the point where it was usable, stable, compatible and up to standards.

 

But you might want to stick around and see what the 1.7 transition will bring. I hear that the recently-finished Thermal Expansion 4 gained some interesting new things, some of which may fill long-standing blanks left by IC2. And there is always a chance that exciting new mods join the family. Just think about our newest functional addition, Simply Jetpacks. Finally an accessible, scaling and well-balanced solution for personal flight, and it ties in very well with exisiting TE infrastructure. BigReactors also has exciting stuff on its roadmap, even meltdown is among the planned features.

 

And while I understand your resentment against EE3, you can take it from my cold, dead hands.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Curunir

[Kezr]

Some of the functionality of IC2 is present in the mods Mekanism and Resonant Induction. Now, none of them are in Tekkit, but if you choose to make your own pack they may be worth looking into.

 

Then there's those generator thingies from Extra Utilities. I never use them, but they seem to provide even more options.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the version of Extra Utilities in which those were introduced is not in Tekkit yet, though I hope it will be added soon.

[Curunir]

Yes, we don't currently have the additional generators from Extra Utilities.

 

Which is, by the way, one of those cool mods that we didn't have back in the day, but would sorely miss if it was removed now.

[redsector]

I stand corrected concerning the Extra Utilities generators, sorry.

 

I just read up on Extra Utilities back when the mod was introduced into Tekkit, saw some of those generators and, seeing as they don't seem to do anything the TE dynamos can't do, I decided not to bother with them, so I never noticed they weren't even there. Also, I vaguely recall that they have this Love Generator or whatever it's called, which uses pink wool as fuel, and uh, seriously... no. Just no.

Edited August 20, 2014 by redsector

[FyberOptic]

Also, I vaguely recall that they have this Love Generator or whatever it's called, which uses pink wool as fuel, and uh, seriously... no. Just no.

 

I believe that this was added specifically to cater to the Twitch streamer Aureylian.  But yeah, it's a bit silly.

[Curunir]

As far as I know, that generator uses anything pink. Dye, wool, and whatever has been stained pink.

Add to this the Heart Glass, and you have all the building blocks for Tekkit Barbie World.

And the most disturbing thing is: Most people playing with it will be male.

[Melfice]

Why not?
Pink is actually the colour we used to be and should* be using for boys.

 

Because pink is a bright, vivid and energetic colour, it's perfect for boys!

And blue is calm and subdued, which perfectly fits the girls.

 

* I say should, which is ridiculous. Use whatever colour you like when decorating and gifting... Never feel obligated.

[Hyperwræth]

Oh god this discussion derailed fast. I updated the OP a bit more and I believe a few of my points still remain valid. As Curunir explained, I know that the modpack has its limits and that its probably best off the way it is, but if there was only some way to fill in the gaps that are left... I just feel like the gaps were core. They were pretty significant parts of the game, particularly my argument on how the game advances, it felt like there was more progress and steps when IC2 was in the game. 

 

I'm not sure how well the redstone flux system can mimic IC2's electricity... I mean its not like there are well defined medium and high voltage systems ya'know? By systems I mean different levels of generators and useful machines. 

 

Edit: Aaaand another paragraph on the above. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[redsector]

Hehe, sorry for derailing the thread. The Pink Generator thing just came to mind when I was thinking about Extra Utilities.

 

As for the different electricity tiers, yeah, I guess most people would agree with you on that one. As I already said, I too think that the three cable tiers in TE3 feel a bit... boring. However, we have to accept that there aren't many alternatives. A lot of mods are adapting to RF (Redstone Flux) as their primary power system now or at least make their machines compatible with it. The only other somewhat widely used energy systems I can think of are Buildcraft's MJ (Minecraft Joules) and, well, IC2's EU. MJ has no tiered power either (and is interchangeable with RF on top of that) and EU died with IC2. Yeah, there are others, but they're usually only used by one specific mod whose author felt the need to implement their own power system, and are incompatible with anything else.

 

Which leaves two options: wait and see if the TE team decides to eventually expand the RF system into different tiers, or wait for Industrialcraft to come back in a somewhat stable, reliable and awesome enough form. It's waiting in any case, since right now, I really can't think of a sensible alternative to RF/MJ.

[Hyperwræth]

Apology accepted. 

 

IC2 prooobably isn't coming back, so I guess we'll see when TE4 is out. I have no idea what they have planned, but it better be something good .  

 

The way that the cables are split up 3 times does sorta suggest that they will flesh out their separate power levels. Maybe. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Hyperwræth

[Curunir]

You're bringing up some worthwhile points, so let's try some more on-topic.

 

The basic question here somewhat revolves around what a game is.

Is your generic console shooter with heavy scripting, cutscenes, tube levels and (if you're lucky) two different possible endings a game? Most would call it that. Now, is Minecraft a game? It's certainly extremely different from aforementioned console shooter. Being what is commonly called a "sandbox (game)" now, there is no clear-cut progression as in the scripted prison that is a console shooter. Of course, the lack of freedom has its merits. It allows designers to deliver a narrative, and get it across with methods invented for movies or television. We tend to expect being led by a leash there.

Compare the freedom of Minecraft. Even when not in Creative, you can basically ignore most "rules". You probably should punch wood and build a shelter, but you don't have to. You could take a vow to never break a block, and see how far you get with this. You could try never fighting, just using tamed wolves as your personal bodyguard. The options are overwhelming, and many people love Minecraft (and other sandbox games) just because of this.

 

Now, why did I make that excursion? A mod adds blocks to Minecraft. The author probably had some ideas on how to use them, but players will most likely surprise him with the ways they end up using them. Did Pahimar think about fully-automated diamond factories when he wrote the code for the Minium Stone? Probably not, but together with Thermal Expansion and other mods, these factories were built.

Which leads to the real key point: Mod interaction. A modpack is in the favourable position to combine several mods and allow players to find synergies and cool cross-uses for them. Most of the long-term fun in Tekkit comes from that. Thermal Expansion is great, but without Extra Utilities, Minefactory Reloaded and even BigReactors, it would be entertaining for a few days before it turns stale.

 

IndustrialCraft tried more than other mods to be its own game inside the game. It brought a broad range of power generators, along with machines that needed the power, and the wiring to connect both. It had its own (freedom-limiting) progression through its internal tech tree, which was made rather well as game design goes, but not without its quirks and pitfalls.

That completionism came with a price. When the time came to overhaul everything and migrate it to a new Minecraft version, nobody was able or willing to do it. Even the somewhat-alive new IC version that still exists has a very tentative status.

 

What really came together in the meantime was teamwork. Based on Chicken_Bones' excellent groundwork with Forge, mods have begun to work together in a way that I had not thought possible. I'm not a coder, but I know enough of them to know that organizing them is like herding cats. Expecting them to self-organize without a dictator (project manager) overseeing them is brave at best. And yet, things work out more often than not. Of course these mods will not offer a well-designed structure and progression path like old integrative IndustrialCraft did. They are different mods, and cooperation between them has its limits. But they all work. The tools may be a bit littered around the sandbox, not neatly arranged, but does that really hold us back?

Half the fun is in finding out how things work, and the other half in giving shape to your ideas, especially the crazy ones.

 

I know that all this can be overwhelming (as can a wall of text, so I'll stop now). Maybe you will find my >newbie guide useful, which offers a first progression, to empower new players to make their own decisions.

Have fun in the sandbox.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Curunir

[EvilOwl]

Apology accepted. 

 

IC2 prooobably isn't coming back, so I guess we'll see when TE4 is out. I have no idea what they have planned, but it better be something good .  

 

The way that the cables are split up 3 times does sorta suggest that they will flesh out their separate power levels. Maybe. 

 

TE4 is out for some time now. Still in beta.

 

IC2 is always in experimental when new minecraft version mods are forming and going out of beta, like right now.

In the next few months every big mod will end beta and have pretty stable versions for 1.7.10 when IC2 is warning about breaking worlds with experimental for some time now.

ATLauncher already went 1.7.10, FTB has an unstable pack. If those hit stable-ish and IC2 will still be in experimental.....

 

One personal thing:

Today I posted 2 issues/sugestions on 1.7.10, they were basically identical for two different mods - IC2 and MFR (common rubber wood).

On MFR I was listened and my issue was labelled, on IC2 I was laughed at.... the issue was closed right away without resolving. Little difference..

 

Edit: Every modpack needs an **Ore Processing** mod. Which one would that be? - depends on it's state and the modpack devs humour.

IC2, TE, EIO, Mek, GregTech, Factorization they all have machines, you give them power, you get ingots.

 

Now lets all think - which one would you choose if you were a modpack author? Have you got the time to test them all... or play them all?

Edited August 26, 2014 by bochen415

[PompanoZombie]

Thermal Expansion has improved about its variety in the Redstone Furnace and Pulverizer and other machines. In the latest updates for newer minecraft versions, Thermal Expansion has added new customization to it. You can make furnaces smelt faster, but use more energy, or the other way around. As Thermal Expansion continues to update then surely one day it will have the same funness as IC2 has

[kattzkitti]

i pretty much agree with your concerns, tekkit (at least at face value) feels like a downgrade from tekkit classic. that being said, i take extreme issue with one of your comments...

 

Sidenote: remove EE3.

 

seriously though. equivalent exchange is absolutely essential to some endgame automation tasks, not to mention one of the coolest parts of tekkit classic. setting up those EMC factories was some of the best times i've ever had in minecraft, and i'm extremely hyped about doing it in tekkit, once EE3 has started updating again. besides, if you don't like it, just disable it on your own client/server. don't ruin it for everyone else.

[Curunir]

Oh, that's what it's about.

You have to be strong now, kitti, because I have bad news for you: Matter generation via Condensers will explicitly not come back, as per Pahimar's stated intention (quite) a while back. I wrote a bit about how I see this change, >here.

[FyberOptic]

A lot of people didn't like EE3 but I thought the minium stone performed a fine purpose.  It was still useful in those cases where you've been building towards crafting something big but ended up lacking like a single diamond or gold or something, and it was just easier to exchange something for it than to spend twenty minutes mucking around underground for it.

 

I tried EE3 in 1.7.10 and it doesn't seem to actually do anything anymore though.  Not even a minium stone.

[kattzkitti]

Oh, that's what it's about.

You have to be strong now, kitti, because I have bad news for you: Matter generation via Condensers will explicitly not come back, as per Pahimar's stated intention (quite) a while back. I wrote a bit about how I see this change, >here.

from pahimar's thread FAQ:

Condensers have been removed. A suitable replacement with new mechanics will be added in the future.

the general mechanic will still be here, just in a different way. unless this has changed...?

[Curunir]

I recall something along the lines that Condensers will not return. Speculating freely, I could imagine something that generates EMC from power (using Redstone Flux would be reasonable), which would finally add some utility to BigReactors other than powering Laser Drills. Or it might simply be a form of "liquid EMC" or other kind of storage, which still requires you to generate the actual EMC before you can use it.

 

The point is, giving something for nothing is not really good in terms of game design. Of course, Condensers were fun to use back in the day, but they tended to render most other mods obsolete, in the same vein that cheat mode does. Why build an autofarm when you can simply transmute food and biomass from your limitless EMC pool? There needs to be some kind of limiting factor to strike a balance with other mods. The same way a single instrument should not eclipse the entire orchestra, although it may get to play a solo at an appropriate time.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Curunir

[kattzkitti]

The point is, giving something for nothing is not really good in terms of game design.

which is why (as far as i'm aware) that pahimar is removing collectors and condensers, and instead adding a new method of performing the same tasks at a balanced rate. he's already stated that the passive EMC generation would still exist, albeit at a slower rate. it's implied (as quoted above) that item creation from EMC will still be a thing as well.

 

honestly, pahimar would be a fool to not keep the very core of what everyone used EE for intact, which is an endgame method of limitless generation of non-renewable resources.

 

the problem with EE2 is that it doesn't require endgame progression in order to reach critical mass. you could very easily have an entry-level condenser flower in probably an hour or less of gameplay. this is fundamentally broken, but also impossible to fix without a complete rework of many things. hence, the creation of EE3 rather than continuation of EE2. with this clean slate, pahimar has the opportunity to fix the progression problems without removing what made the mod worth using.

 

again, infinite generation of resources is 99% of why people use the mod. removing this will kill the mod for the majority of people.

 

granted, he's still removing the red matter and destruction tools. will i be sad to see these go? nope, cause dark matter is still in and accomplishes the same tasks without the problems. i doubt server admins will be sad either, since it removes the broken tools that ignore griefing prevention.

Edited August 23, 2014 by kattzkitti