equivalent exchange for smp?

[FrogBash]

EE would completely break tekkit, even if the transmutations were made more expensive.

With buildcraft i can quickly set up a repeating energy collector setup that upgrades glowstone into mobius fuel. With this i can get enough resources to scale it up and get exponentially more and more energy collectors.

The bottom line is, within 10 hours of playing i could have top level armor and weapons. This mod would completely destroy the balance of tekkit.

I don't see how you could possibly get top level armor within 10 hours of gameplay- it would take an immense amount of time to charge up a klein star omega and each piece of top level EE armor requires a full one to craft. OMG!!! I started on EE and was able to get Red Matter armor by around 12 hours or so.. but to get the gem armor would be ridiculous!

To mine and your defense, I did start crafting the red matter katar and morning star before I crafted the red matter armor. I still do not see how to get 4 full Omega klein stars within that amount of time unless others were dumping emc into your stars.. that might be the difference I am missing here.

[Yuriy]

EE would completely break tekkit, even if the transmutations were made more expensive.

With buildcraft i can quickly set up a repeating energy collector setup that upgrades glowstone into mobius fuel. With this i can get enough resources to scale it up and get exponentially more and more energy collectors.

The bottom line is, within 10 hours of playing i could have top level armor and weapons. This mod would completely destroy the balance of tekkit.

One (1) fully charged Klein Star requires 76,365,824 EMC. That equals 9,322 diamonds (145.65625 stacks of diamonds).

A Mk3 Collector produces 24 EMC per second. If you were only using collectors, you'd need ~88.386 collectors (Mk3) alone just to create the amount of energy to create a charged Klein Star Omega. ChKSO = 24*(60^2)*10x

The EMC cost of all those collectors would be ~39,643,143.225 EMC or ~4,839.251 diamonds (~75.613 stacks).

If you had one (1) fully saturated 17/5 flower (considered by some to be the most practical geometric array) of all Mk 3 collectors and relays (with each relay saturated on 5 sides) and a condenser to convert to matter, you would produce 558 EMC/s (33,480 EMC/m or 2,008,800 EMC/h) for a total cost of 9,766,667 EMC or ~1,192.22 diamonds (~18.628 stacks). It would take one (1) 17/5 flower would take ~38.0156 hours to produce enough energy to create and charge a Klein Star Omega.

It would take a little less than 4 of these arrays to produce a single fully charged Klein Star Omega in under 10 hours.

Aside from exploiting the current fuel bug or spawning yourself several stacks of Red Matter Furnaces to burn (of which you'd need ~28 to get a fully charged Klein Star Omega) please, enlighten me, on how you would get top tier armor and weapons. Keep in mind that these calculations are for one (1) fully charged Klein Star Omega of which you need 4 along with 1 of every power item (2 swift gales), and a full set of red matter armor as well as 11 pieces of red matter and every red matter tool to achieve your claim.

The armor alone would require 317,397,830 EMC for a total cost of ~38,744.852 diamonds (or ~605.388 stacks).

I should also note that I've made and fully charged a Klein Star Omega using the fuel bug and just the un-automated process of making one (1) Klein Star Omega took me an hour after I gathered the 2 alch chests worth of materials. I should also note that that Klein Star then took me about 2-3 hours to charge burning infinite amounts of matter (testing the charge rate).

Long story short, unless you start out with sixteen (16) 17/5 arrays of Mk3 collectors and relays, there's no freaking way you could make the armor in 10 hours much less the weapons to match.

EDIT: legitimately

[FrogBash]

*Cheers for the mathematician* lol- Well said!

[J0P5]

EE itself isn't overpowered, it's a great mod. The only thing is, it kinda ruins the other mods which aren't meant to be played with such ease of getting diamonds. However it's still an awesome mod in tekkit, on our server we are just gonna disable some stuff we feel is unbalanced for smp (divining rod, destruction catalyst (and its upgrade), energy collectors etc).

This way you still get the cool endgame created by EE, but you don't ruin your other mods.

[OmegaJasam]

Gem armour? Why look at gem armour?

The red matter gear alone is easily top level, and is something that can be gotten very easy.

I'm with JOP5 on this one. the problem with EE is how it interacts with other mods.

It removes the need for much of them. Removes anything balanced based on scarcity, scales up a /lot/ faster and at the end leaves you more powerful then any other mod.

While /it's/ well balanced in terms of needing 40000 diamonds for gem armour, the other mods arn't built with nigh infinite copper, iorn, redstone, glowstone and diamonds in mind!

It also turns the game into creative mode with mega tools. The Morningstar and artifacts take you a whole level above whats possable elsewise.

Overall, it's a nice addition, but be careful to be sure what kind of community you want, and take EE into serious consideration.

[Valkon]

Gem armour? Why look at gem armour?

Because it's an upgrade to the Red Matter Armor and the highest tier of armor in EE?

[Yuriy]

Gem armour? Why look at gem armour?

The red matter gear alone is easily top level, and is something that can be gotten very easy.

I'm with JOP5 on this one. the problem with EE is how it interacts with other mods.

It removes the need for much of them. Removes anything balanced based on scarcity, scales up a /lot/ faster and at the end leaves you more powerful then any other mod.

While /it's/ well balanced in terms of needing 40000 diamonds for gem armour, the other mods arn't built with nigh infinite copper, iorn, redstone, glowstone and diamonds in mind!

It also turns the game into creative mode with mega tools. The Morningstar and artifacts take you a whole level above whats possable elsewise.

Overall, it's a nice addition, but be careful to be sure what kind of community you want, and take EE into serious consideration.

Well put and I agree completely. I enjoy EE2 (and previous EE) and have been waiting for the SMP forever because the server I normally run is just a hangout for RL friends. We play legitimately but don't have the time nor desire to spend days grinding away or building some sort of server economy. We play for fun and to build cool stuff so being able to transmute and set up a factory that generates matter from energy over time is great for us. Plus, I like the way it looks better without the massive gaping holes of build-craft quarries .

If I were running a 100+ server with a server economy and the like, I would probably dislike (or at least disallow) the mod as well because it may have an adverse effect on certain server environments depending on the community.

In the end, like all mods in Tekkit, if one ruins the experience for you (or, in this case, your community), disable it (I can't stand Mo' Creatures half the time because most of them just get in my way).

Happy mining ;D

[Watchful11]

okay, 10 hours is a bit of an exaggeration, but you can still get top level armor faster than quantum armor.

I also agree that the mod itself may not be unbalanced, it does unbalance a lot of other mods in tekkit.

I am hoping when we upgrade our server we don't have EE enabled.

[Yuriy]

okay, 10 hours is a bit of an exaggeration, but you can still get top level armor faster than quantum armor.

I also agree that the mod itself may not be unbalanced, it does unbalance a lot of other mods in tekkit.

I am hoping when we upgrade our server we don't have EE enabled.

I can agree that it sometimes unbalance other mods because they're not designed to work together and remain balanced. Xeno does do a great job trying to balance it out as best as he can but unless the mod makers start working together on a joint project, their mods will always have odd effects on other mods (positive and negative).

As for getting gem before quantum armor...I don't know. What's the time from start that it'd take you to get it if that was your primary objective?

If I beelined it for gem armor right now I would estimate it'd take me an absurd amount of time. I play with my girl a lot so we usually split up or take turns in the mines while the other builds. With both of us working hard, it took us about 2-4 hours just to get our first Mk1 collector. Take out an hour for base construction.

Extrapolating my experience with EE2 and the new balancing decisions, I estimate it would take me more than 60 hours (I think it'd be over 100-140 hours) unless I exploit a bug or cheat. Mind you that's for one set or armor. To get my girl a set would probably take another 20-30 hours on top of that because the growth is supposed to be exponential.

I think the reason most people call it so unbalanced or unbalancing is because the progression of EE2 is not linear like many other mods. Although some still make you really powerful end game, most will limit your ability to generate matter to a specific set of stuff. EE2, however, features exponential growth (although slow) but leaves many an end-game player wanting for nothing because they can create matter over time by converting from energy collected to matter.

Hell, if a server admin wanted to change the rate of growth and matter generation to balance a large server with many players, just limit everyone to Mk1 collectors. That would not only diminish the potential for creating asinine amounts of matter end game, it would also stretch the progression out to at least 500 hours (rough guess, I'm not taking the time to quantify it) before a person is capable of getting something like gem armor. For normal players, however, I doubt they'd want to spend 500 hours tinkering to get 4 items...this isn't WoW. ;)

[SimpleGuy]

I think the reason most people call it so unbalanced or unbalancing is because the progression of EE2 is not linear like many other mods.

I really like your train of thought. Just wanted to clarify that the unbalancing factor is not just due to the exponential growth (no matter how slow). It's that the exponential growth can replace nearly all other growth due to EMC's near-universal applicability. For instance, in vanilla you can only farm crops so fast (no matter how big your fields are) so you always gain wheat (and thus bread) at a constant rate. However, as long as you're using parts of your EMC generated to make a new collector and the rest of the EMC to make bread, suddenly you can make bread at an increasing rate.

[OmegaJasam]

Because it's an upgrade to the Red Matter Armor and the highest tier of armor in EE?

Just to make it clear, I was pointing out the OP said 'Top level', not 'the best in this mod'. IE, even if the BEST armour in the mod will take a while, there is armour on par with the 'top level' armour in the other mods (indestructable 90+ defence, near practical invunrability), which is very much on that sort of time scale (or at least is/was pre-balance changes). Thats nearly as good as quantum!

More concerning is how fast you can use EE to get /other mods/ top tier armour. They're all based of linier scaling, and relative scarcity of resources so if you convert the EMC to their base materials, you could get other mods best armour probably even quicker then you could red armour!

Thus my comment about 'Why are you picking gem armour as your item to mesure aganst'. Hope that clears it up!

[Yuriy]

Just to make it clear, I was pointing out the OP said 'Top level', not 'the best in this mod'. IE, even if the BEST armour in the mod will take a while, there is armour on par with the 'top level' armour in the other mods (indestructable 90+ defence, near practical invunrability), which is very much on that sort of time scale (or at least is/was pre-balance changes). Thats nearly as good as quantum!

More concerning is how fast you can use EE to get /other mods/ top tier armour. They're all based of linier scaling, and relative scarcity of resources so if you convert the EMC to their base materials, you could get other mods best armour probably even quicker then you could red armour!

Thus my comment about 'Why are you picking gem armour as your item to mesure aganst'. Hope that clears it up!

Well, I have used EE to get IC2 machines (and, in fact, I use IC2 machines to get more early game EMC by macerating everything ), I would like to revise a previous statement based on a few things; some here, some below.

Some mods such as IC2 do offer exponential scaling as well because once one gathers enough base mats, one could sit by his or her HV solar array or MV solar flowers and generate UU matter until they get whatever they want, in fact some do or some may use a chunk loader and just keep mining while their UU matter farm works. EE2 works in much the same way because one has to set up the operation and then it often conitnues running and gathering energy that through certain means can be converted to matter. Where the distinction comes into place is IC2 is focused often around developing tech for it's own uses to increase things like factory and mine efficiency, EE2 is based around creating 'machines' used to transmute and produce matter. Whereas the former allows for improvements to make work easier, the latter focuses on eliminating some of that work. When looks at individually, both could be considered nearly identical because they produce a very similar result (freeing up the player by increasing overall efficiency thereby lowering the amount of time necessary to gather ingredients). Where they differ is the method and rate of growth.

Personally, I think both mods and many others are coming into their own to achieve a level of balance (even considering other mods) then ever before. As long as mod authors care to balance for the types of mods with which people may end up playing, eventually we may see all such mods reach an equilibrium in which no one method of tech advancement is superior to the other and no method of combining techs would produce an overpowering result.

However, until this point is reached, certain combinations of mods may empower the knowledgeable to achieve faster advancement than others. However, if Xeno adds in code that permits server operators to define the EMC value of other mods' devices (and hopefully code that also permits other mods' machines to become transmutable by judging the absolute value of the machines ingredients), server operators will be able to balance EE2 with other mods to their community's liking. However, the basic premise and spirit of EE2 (matter transmutation), I believe, is a wonderful thing because it permits people to not only use up less storage space by transmuting everything to a common block (the basics of currency and economics, imho) but allows those unfortunate in their mining adventures to transmute to the materials one needs.

I really like your train of thought. Just wanted to clarify that the unbalancing factor is not just due to the exponential growth (no matter how slow). It's that the exponential growth can replace nearly all other growth due to EMC's near-universal applicability. For instance, in vanilla you can only farm crops so fast (no matter how big your fields are) so you always gain wheat (and thus bread) at a constant rate. However, as long as you're using parts of your EMC generated to make a new collector and the rest of the EMC to make bread, suddenly you can make bread at an increasing rate.

I agree, by creating a series of large arrays (although very expensive), I can negate building multi-chunk farms and instead create an asinine amount of bread without having to go out and tend the fields or set up more additional machines. For example, for farms, you'd need stuff to plant, fertilize (if applicable), harvest, till, repeat; with EE2, I can have a single 17/5 flower make 7.75 bread per second (I don't actually know if buildcraft pipes would be able to remove it fast enough ). It comes down to building additional tech to handle everything or building additional tech to handle distribution. Either way you look at it, I never have to cook again or use a large portion of land for farm space...instead I think I'll build a giant gold, phallic statue with an obsidian pipe (that connects to my warehouse and routing network) to collect from those who come by to worship it.

Ok, enough of the digression and the jokes . The way you point it out is a great example and, as I stated above, other mods often follow a similar exponential progression because, eventually, everyone comes to the point that they just can't produce anything faster. Eventually, all the arrays in the world (and the time it takes to manage them) will reach a point that isn't even worth discussing unless you're a theoretical Minecraft physicist hell bent on reaching maximum efficiency.

A question to those who have some good experience with the new EE2 (I haven't had a chance to test yet)

Any of you guys know how many WoFT one needs to reach the maximum efficiency of 10x production? And is it 10x in the chunk (or several chunks) or the entire world?

Just a quick crunch gave me 143 WoFT to reach 10x production assuming a 7% stacking gain (7%+7%=14%).

143 WoFT (81,297,216 EMC) + Pedestals (216,719,360) = Total EMC cost of (298,016,576) or 36,378.98 diamonds.

If compounded, I get 74 WoFT. Anyone test to see which is the most efficient and if the effect is global or limited to a chunk (or several chunks).

74 WoFT (42,069,888) + Pedestals (112,148,480) = Total EMC cost of (154,218,368) or 18,825.48 diamonds.

For those that are new to EE2 ( http://equivalentexchange.wikispaces.com/Watch+of+Flowing+Time )

Well guys, I'm going to go grab a beer and start drinking before I get it into my head to test that :P

[ocellatusa]

have a EE question for multi player i have tried to play with the nova cataclysm and it seems it wont work the way it is supposed to they disappear and i don't even hear a boom

is this a common problem or do i need to configure something for them to work its our own little family server at home so it would be lovely to be able to use them for our big cave slime spawn

i know EE is completely new in smp

[Watchful11]

I don't quite understand your question, are you saying they don't work at all?

As in, no explosion?

Or just that you cant hear them?

If you just cant hear them, there's a known problem with EE sounds, check the bug forum.

[ocellatusa]

there are no explosions at all and walls keep standing also our power items sometimes wont work the tools dark matter they wont use the right click feature if it was just the sound it wouldn't be a problem for me as some sounds are a bit loud

our regular tnt works fine and the creepers too : its just the power items that seem to not work as intended for us

i have been looking at EE's wiki to find out if its a know bug but dosent seem to be there so im wondering if its a setting i need to fix as i said its our server for me my son and my other half so we haven't done anything other than run the tekkit launch no added plugins or mods