The SSP 'Balance' Conundrum

[Brunswick]

Let me summarize the following with a simple sentence: "I don't understand this whole 'balance' thing." It makes no sense that in a completely sandbox world with no other players around (for SSP) but yourself, and the entire intended point of the game to just build awesome shit, that the modding community would be so intrinsically focused on the word 'balance'. The things that cause this outcry of 'OP'd nerf nao lulz' are usually, in my experience, Thaumcraft 2 and Equivalent Exchange.

Thaumcraft 2 has gone through not one but two different rapid-fire nerfs to the Pickaxe Of The Core, first bringing it from a durability hit for the block you hit, to a durability hit for every block you mine, to completely axing the whole 'large-scale mining' bent and going for a 'smelts all the ores you mine with it', which is considerably worse. Why? I presume due to the 'balance' whine that comes up the most in other MC groups. The illusion that everything must be zero-summed to the Vanilla MC experience.

There's EE, as well, which gets the most flak for being 'overpowered' and 'too good'. Why? Because it produces a large amount of valuable things? Sure, you can create a stack of diamonds in a few real-life hours. But then you can turn it around and use it for just about every other mod in existence, of which there many that require a lot of diamonds. But looking internally for EE, the entire mod requires a lot of diamonds.

So why the bitching? Why the kvetching about 'balance' in a game that doesn't even need a 'balance' thing anyway? This is an honest question, as I am quite dumbfounded on how such a strange opinion has become so all-pervasive.

[Ragnar Homsar]

I've never seen someone on these forums bitch about EE balance in SSP, it's always, without fail, SMP.

EE is unbalanced in a different way for me; it overpowers literally every other mod, except maybe IC2's Quantum Armor, and even then that's only because RM armor nullifies 90% damage while Quantum completely nullifies it.

[Brunswick]

I've never seen someone on these forums bitch about EE balance in SSP, it's always, without fail, SMP.

EE is unbalanced in a different way for me; it overpowers literally every other mod, except maybe IC2's Quantum Armor, and even then that's only because RM armor nullifies 90% damage while Quantum completely nullifies it.

I didn't mean on these forums, per se. I ask here because it's the most levelheaded place to ask.

But I do have to pursue this: How is EE unbalanced in SSP? SMP I can see, yes, because it's a multiplayer experience and economies and whatnot, but most of the complaints I've seen have stretched to include SSP as well. Perhaps I'm just looking at dysfunctional places.

[Valkon]

EE is unbalanced in a different way for me; it overpowers literally every other mod, except maybe IC2's Quantum Armor, and even then that's only because RM armor nullifies 90% damage while Quantum completely nullifies it.

But at the same time, some of the stuff it does that the Quantum Armor doesn't do is:

• 
  [li]Once you have it, none of the abilities (both passive and active) require any fuel.[/li]
  [li]The helmet allows you to call down lightning bolts at any time.[/li]
  [li]The chestplate allow you to produce explosions.[/li]
  [li]The greaves allow you to accelerate downwards and slow/repel all mobs within a 5-block radius.[/li]
  [li]The boots allow you to auto-sprint (though Quantum Leggings do have their own sprinting ability) and can propel you upwards infinitely.[/li]
  

So the 10% less of damage reduction isn't all that much of a loss.

[gotyaoi]

I didn't mean on these forums, per se. I ask here because it's the most levelheaded place to ask.

But I do have to pursue this: How is EE unbalanced in SSP? SMP I can see, yes, because it's a multiplayer experience and economies and whatnot, but most of the complaints I've seen have stretched to include SSP as well. Perhaps I'm just looking at dysfunctional places.

Some people really, really dislike the "something from nothing" attitude of collector flowers, and if they don't like it, then by god, no one is allowed to like it.

From a certain perspective, it is a little silly though. Once you've gotten your red-matter/gem gear, you've still got the flower there, chugging away, making EMC at a mind-bending rate. You quite literally never have to mine another block on that map. Personally, I don't mind. I don't like messing up the generated shape of the world too much. But for other people, it's just "not fair". To whom is it unfair? *shrug* Some universal principal of fairness maybe. The very idea of equivalent exchange maybe. In the end, the argument is sort of... If you want something for nothing, just play creative, but we want some challenge, some difficulty, some danger, and sitting around waiting for our next piece of red matter doesn't provide that.

tl;dr: There are people who play SSP as an adventure, not a sandbox, and some features of EE can break that experience.

[NightKev]

tl;dr: There are people who play SSP as an adventure, not a sandbox, and some features of EE can break that experience.

Except they can just decline to use any feature they deem "overpowered" in SSP, so they don't even have that meager justification. If you're unable to keep yourself from using something just because it's there, you have bigger problems than a mod being "OP".

[SimpleGuy]

If anyone gives a damn about "SSP balance", whether between mods or the functionality of the item, then don't use it. If he or she is still super-tempted to use an item/block that is "imbalanced", then all that says is that he is weak willed. If he demands change, my tiny violin plays the saddest song for him. He can grow up, get over it, and make the mod himself.

No one should tell you what your SSP experience should be. Likewise, no one should cater to your SSP experience to make it just the way you want it. The gameplay of Minecraft is a Sandbox. The Game of Minecraft is also a Sandbox. The difference being, you can build a giant gold weiner in the game of Minecraft because it is a Sandbox game; you can also add in the Sparklefarts Mod to your Game of Minecraft because the Game itself is a Sandbox. In both sandboxes, I don't tell others what to do.

No, seriously, "Mineception" is a stupid phrase and shouldn't be used here.

[gotyaoi]

Except they can just decline to use any feature they deem "overpowered" in SSP, so they don't even have that meager justification. If you're unable to keep yourself from using something just because it's there, you have bigger problems than a mod being "OP".

Thus, the first part of my reply.

... and if they don't like it, then by god, no one is allowed to like it.

[miniboxer]

If anyone gives a damn about "SSP balance", whether between mods or the functionality of the item, then don't use it. If he or she is still super-tempted to use an item/block that is "imbalanced", then all that says is that he is weak willed. If he demands change, my tiny violin plays the saddest song for him. He can grow up, get over it, and make the mod himself.

No one should tell you what your SSP experience should be. Likewise, no one should cater to your SSP experience to make it just the way you want it. The gameplay of Minecraft is a Sandbox. The Game of Minecraft is also a Sandbox. The difference being, you can build a giant gold weiner in the game of Minecraft because it is a Sandbox game; you can also add in the Sparklefarts Mod to your Game of Minecraft because the Game itself is a Sandbox. In both sandboxes, I don't tell others what to do.

No, seriously, "Mineception" is a stupid phrase and shouldn't be used here.

same here, The SSP experience should be what you want, but collectors and condensers are CERTAINLY OP in SMP. They make it so just about everybody is running around in redmatter by the end of a few days. I personally only like the rings, amulets, and transmutation tables of EE, The collectors and condensers and relays only made me feel like I cheated to get all those items.

[MephistosChan]

Yep, its about choice. Personally I don't go in for TC2 or EE, that's my choice, I prefer the obviously tech based things like IC2 or Buildcraft, but then I tend to read hard science fiction not fantasy.

Mods can become overpowered when combined with other mods and take away a lot of the feeling of achievement, but that is a very personal thing. I once built a 100*75*30 block cruciform 'cathedral' building, every block was dug by hand or buildcraft, smelted or crafted as appropriate and placed by hand. Yet the roof was constructed out of netherbrick stairs made from netherbrick blocks which were transmuted in EE, because it just wasn't practical to try and mine out an entire nether fortress for one bloody big roof.

So personal choices for personal play styles.

[Industrial Miner]

Yep, its about choice. Personally I don't go in for TC2 or EE, that's my choice, I prefer the obviously tech based things like IC2 or Buildcraft, but then I tend to read hard science fiction not fantasy.

Mods can become overpowered when combined with other mods and take away a lot of the feeling of achievement, but that is a very personal thing. I once built a 100*75*30 block cruciform 'cathedral' building, every block was dug by hand or buildcraft, smelted or crafted as appropriate and placed by hand. Yet the roof was constructed out of netherbrick stairs made from netherbrick blocks which were transmuted in EE, because it just wasn't practical to try and mine out an entire nether fortress for one bloody big roof.

So personal choices for personal play styles.

Nether bricks can be made by compressing 3 netherrack in a compressor. Also, you can just craft those stairs and fences with the nether bricks. So that's a way to not use EE to make nether bricks :].

[MephistosChan]

Nether bricks can be made by compressing 3 netherrack in a compressor. Also, you can just craft those stairs and fences with the nether bricks. So that's a way to not use EE to make nether bricks :].

He's only bloody well right, you learn something everyday.

[NightKev]

Holy shit, when was that added?

[Taco_Dan]

"Balance" should not be an issue in a single player game.

If you don't want to use an exploit, then don't. If you think a mod is too overpowered, don't use it.

If there's an exploit in a game, I abuse the hell out of it, and on the rare occasion I don't want to, I just ignore it. Some people just need to grow up and learn that the whole world doesn't have to think the way they do.

[jakj]

There are two concepts at work when someone talks about balance in singleplayer, and you people keep eliding them. You need to learn to separate them and tackle them independently.

1) Over- or underpowered items, blocks, methods, exploits, whatevers, that derail the game for you.

(Solution: Either willpower, or writing a quickie mod to remove crafting recipes.)

2) Items, blocks, methods, whatevers that for a person need only adjustment of durations, quantities, frequencies, potencies, and the like.

(Solution: Reconfigure mod if possible; Rewrite mod if not.)

There is a big difference between saying "I don't want to spawn items with NEI because it feels like cheating" and "I don't like how easy it is to transmute, and think it should come with some EMC loss".