Niciboy8 Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Stand clear for a wall of text: In recent days, I have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of servers which have disabled Equivalent Exchange by x3n0ph0b3. I wish to defend this mod, and cast off the bad reputation which it has gained. What problems do people have with EE? Many people claim that EE allows duping, is overpowered, and is not balanced for a fun multiplayer experience. In response to these problems: Let me begin with duping. It is undeniable that Crafting Table II leads to very simple duping. The dupe bug with this item is well known and documented. In addition, server owners are warned about this bug by a mass of red text on the Tekkit serverside download page. However, Crafting Table II is very simple to disable, and there are many posts on this very forum dealing with getting rid of it. I have seen some servers claim that there are dupe bugs pertaining to the transmutation table, and some servers even claim that you can dupe items with a Red Matter furnace (That's on purpose, you know. That's the whole point of the item). I owned a Tekkit server for a while on Tekkit 2.0, and I must honestly say that I have seen no dupe bug related to transmutation. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like there is one. In response to accusations that EE is overpowered, I say just this: try out Industrialcraft 2. If we compare items between EE and Industrialcraft 2, we come to a pretty obvious conclusion: EE equipped players can be easily defeated by a skilled Industrialcraft player, or even by Balkon's weapons mod. The Red Katar and Morningstar are easily overpowered by a powered nano-saber. Dark Matter armor is 1 shot killed by a blunderbuss, and a player in Red Matter or Gem Armor will be significantly less protected than a player in Quantum. People will bring up the example of the Abyss Helmet and Infernal Chestplate, which can shoot lightning and explode items around the player. However, players in Quantum take no damage from either, and can move at 3x the speed of a regular player running. They can also uberjump which makes them very difficult to hit with most EE attacks. Quantum armored players also take no damage from the ever powerful blunderbuss, which absolutely destroys most EE armored players. It is true that the flying physics of EE make controlled flight much easier than Jetpacks, but who honestly cares? Swiftwolf is much more expensive than a jetpack, and flight isn't really an advantage for someone with the bottom half of quantum. My last point is that EE does NOT destroy the balance of Tekkit. In fact, it adds more complex player strategy, and is essential for incredible gameplay. In Tekkit 1.0 (which was the bomb even without EE), there was only 1 path for all players: Quantum. Everyone shot for a laser, a nano-saber, and Quantum. This made the game very unbalanced for anyone without these items, or with slightly less playtime. EE added a second path for players to take, and Balkons added another balance to EE. In a game of EE, IC2, and Balkons (a loose adaptation of rock, paper, scissors). In rock, paper, scissors, all the options are balanced, leading to the game having no optimal strategy. (I'd draw a payoff matrix, but I think you all get the idea). However, in the game of EE, IC2, and Balkons, EE defeats pretty much nothing Balkons defeats EE and IC2 defeats EE and Balkon's The point I have made here so far is that EE is not a powerful mod at all, despite the shear possibility of getting resources easily. However, what fun is Star Wars without a Rebel Alliance? EE is a much better 'starting mod'. It allows players to gain amazing powers with relatively simple machines, yet without any potential to dominate the server they play on. EE is not a mod for the expert: its a mod for the beginner. It amazes, yet the skilled player can still prevail. These very interesting game options and possibilities did not exist before EE, and do not exist on servers with it disabled. I get it that there are some purists who disable EE because they want a '1.0 ' experience. However, when admins disable EE for duping, being overpowered, and lack of game balance, I facepalm. EE is a FANTASTIC mod, with very good programming, interesting game dynamics, and much to give to Tekkit as well as Technic SSP. Thanks for listening! TL;DR EE is a great mod, which, contrary to popular belief is extremely balanced and extremely fun. Server admins please take this into consideration before disabling it. -AngryFidel
Niciboy8 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 Good post, but read the rules.. I just did before posting this... did I break them? If I did, sorry.
Chezzik Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 TL;DR EE is a great mod, which, contrary to popular belief is extremely balanced and extremely fun. Server admins please take this into consideration before disabling it. -AngryFidel I think the wall of text was unnecessary. These two lines sum things up pretty well. I agree that it is a great mod. On my current server, I have an enormous collector farm that spits out almost one dark matter per second, and it was fun to build. If it is a starring mod on a server, then it is balanced. There are no shortcuts to the end. BUT... The big problem with it is that it runs at a different pace than IC2. You get to the end in EE2 (ie enormous collector farm) in a matter of days, when IC2 takes weeks. I'm considering setting up my own server with for the first time soon, and I'll probably disable EE, at least for the month. I like the IC2 progression (macerators -> electrofurnaces -> drills/mining laser -> miners/pumps -> huge power generators -> mass fabs -> quantum armor). With EE, most of that IC2 progression is not necessary. You make a macerator, then do EE stuff, then jump straight to making huge power generators. I don't think that people are dumping EE because it's a bad mod. There's just too much in Tekkit, and dropping EE is an easy way to scale back the complexity. Just like anything related to minecraft, there is no wrong way to play. Decide on a set of rules, and then play with them. p.s. the rudeness about reading the rules is based upon how you ended your post. Happy hunting!
Jay? Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 You shouldn't sign your name. It's in da rules. My problem with EE isn't the overpowered weapons, it's the automining pick combined with the fact that transmutation gives you really easy early game access to powerful things from other mods. It's balanced against other mods if you pick one path and stick with it, but combining IC2 and EE is wholly and completely overpowering. ~ Herp Derpington, Lord of the Dance
jakj Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Actually, it's usually that the tools bypass protection.
Jay? Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Actually, it's usually that the tools bypass protection. There is that, but i feel more like that's something that the creators of the protection plugins need to account for.
Chezzik Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Actually, it's usually that the tools bypass protection. I keep forgetting about this, because I play on servers with people I trust, and have never needed protection mods. I always assumed that the EE tools in question (cataclysmic lens and the upgrade) could be disabled without the rest of the mod, and that it's pretty much a mandatory configuration change if you run a pvp server, or just have a lot of griefers in general. This problem is fairly new (EE in SMP is new), so I expect there to be a better fix for this within the next week or two. I'd expect a small addon that would bridge the gap. In any case, the EE config files let you disable particular recipes, so disabling all of EE just for this does not make sense.
Niciboy8 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 Actually, it's usually that the tools bypass protection. IMHO, Anarchy servers are the best... but lasers and dynamite and nukes bypass too. Also, in my experience, I can get a quantum suit faster than redmatter armor, but that might be just me. I stand by the fact that EE is amazing. and it also helps me bypass crafting pistons: my least favorite thing since George Bush.
OmegaJasam Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 The problem with EE is how it interacts with /all the other mods/ and the /endgame/ it creates. The transmutation table removes the scarcity of diamonds and other materials. The condensor removes the need for entire portions of other mods (Ice for your reactor e.t.c.. or heck, the reactor itself when you have inf geo-thurmal). This is where the 'balance' issues come. None of the other mods are designed with such easy access to materials in mind. Their mid-endgame items is balanced around dozerns of diamonds. Not thousands! The other problem is the end game. With nothing disabled, EE's final set of items makes creative look lame. At that point, you basicaly have a creative server, which a lot of people don't want. If your after a technical world with pipes and cables and quarrys and miners and farms everywhere, EE tends to just overrule them all. Using PvP logic is also daft in a game like this. The power in EE's items is in their massive alteration capabilitys. And you can mix and match it if you want EE's invunrability. I would actualy disagree with your first statement. EE has a /very/ /good/ repuatation. It just doesn't mesh very well with the style of gameplay which involves large elaberate structtures, power generation and tearing up the landscape. People disable it because it completely alters the play style. Right now I'm playing with EE disabled on my server, because it always means expanding your operations if you want more stuff. EE? It just means making a slightly bigger collector farm from your collector farm. If you can't turn mountains into diamond blocks just by looking at it funny by that point. Heck, it makes basic structures more impressive too. A house made entirely of marble brick without EE is more impressive them a house made of redmatter blocks when you do! Generaly, if you like EE, just find a server with it on. It's almost all about the playstyle, not the protection issues.
slowpoke Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 OP, the thing you have to remember is that mod balance incorporates a lot more factors than just who can beat who with what mod's weapons. The only thing I think is really super broken about it are the collectors. They're free shit forever with very, very little setup and input. Everything else looks well balanced to me, though I haven't done a whole lot with it yet. The red matter hammer and destruction catalyst are kind of dubious though, but I suppose they aren't much worse than a mining laser on explosive, except they don't run out of uses from what I can tell. IC2 just seems a lot more balanced to me.
Forum Administrators sct Posted March 30, 2012 Forum Administrators Posted March 30, 2012 IMHO, Anarchy servers are the best... but lasers and dynamite and nukes bypass too. Also, in my experience, I can get a quantum suit faster than redmatter armor, but that might be just me. I stand by the fact that EE is amazing. and it also helps me bypass crafting pistons: my least favorite thing since George Bush. You'll find most servers that disable EE also disable Nukes,Dynamite and Mining Lasers for the exact same reason.
Niciboy8 Posted March 31, 2012 Author Posted March 31, 2012 And therefore, I don't play on those servers.
Forum Administrators sct Posted March 31, 2012 Forum Administrators Posted March 31, 2012 All it takes is one player having a bad day to bypass all protection and fuck up everyone's shit.
Docxx Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 It is pretty funny to see these people log on to a server and they say 'is EE on?' we say no and they say 'Bye'. Although EE is a fantastic Mod it is just not balanced to work with the other Mods, it is so overpowered that it makes them all virtually redundant or at least as easy to do the 'endgame' as EE is. The pain with making Reactors or huge Solar farms is obviously getting the resources and EE make this trivial, negating the need for Buildcraft Quarries etc. I played on a full EE server and I was making my Diamond block mansion after 4 days, it just got dull.. The only items that suit Tekkit servers well are the Alchemy chests / bags, Repair Talisman and Divining Rods, everything else turn this Mod pack into 'EE and some other Mods you might use' EE doesn't look right in a Tekkit Mod pack, it should be all technological, not magical witchery shit.
jakj Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 EE doesn't look right in a Tekkit Mod pack, it should be all technological, not magical witchery shit. They've already said "Technic" is just a name, not supposed to be related to "technical" or "technological". The point of the pack is, and I paraphrase, "To make Minecraft better."
Docxx Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 They've already said "Technic" is just a name, not supposed to be related to "technical" or "technological". The point of the pack is, and I paraphrase, "To make Minecraft better." I didn't say it had anything to do with the name, it was just my opinion
Sp0nge Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 The only issue with got with EE is the landprotectionbypass and dupebug. Its perfectly doable to adjust EE to make it suit whatever u want it to be on your server. People need to stop look at Tekkit as "how a server is to be" and instead look at Tekkit as a platform for future developement of your server. Using the proper tools, mix in some creativity and EE should be perfectly fine to have enabled (atleast parts of it) on your server.
trashmail Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 How I see the progress curve. [img width=800] In the later "end game" EE is just like creative mode.
Revelator Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 I myself dropped Buildcraft actually, since I felt that quarries and such was too... well "Sit and wait for materials to come to you" While EE still has a function that you do need to mine stuff and so on.
trashmail Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 While EE still has a function that you do need to mine stuff and so on. My condenser setups say otherwise.
OmegaJasam Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 sp0nge, disabling almost all of EE's core functionality just to have it 'on' isn't really using the mod. Buildcraft and IC2 have their problems, but they scale up to a much smaller level. They require, at the very least, heavy investments into space and traveling. It makes for a diffrent endgame. Untill that point, EE makes quarrys, forestry, most low end power generation redundent. Masisvly drops the scale and complexity of reactor setups, removes all scarcity and so forth. The biggest problem is with how fast EE lets you get to /the other mods/ endgame. With no scarcity of lapis / glowstone / diamonds / tin due to the 'equivilent excahnge' nature of EE, it's very very very easy to skip stright to the best stuff.
Sp0nge Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 sp0nge, disabling almost all of EE's core functionality just to have it 'on' isn't really using the mod. True. This topic has 2 sides, the players and serveradmins. Its a balance of what _can_ be activated in regards of who an admin wants his server to be and function. Ill use our server as an example: We want as much avalible as possible, and still be able to make players feel safe in regards of safezones. We allow pvp outside these safezones, and inside a player should never worrie about ever getting killed/greif etc. To make that work we are forced to disssable some items in EE, like Destruction Catalyst (can u find a bigger greiftool?), Vulcanite Amulet (that basicly brings both pvp and greif into protected area, it bypasses it), Flow of time (really ... anyone said increased CPU usage?) etc etc. Some items also plan dupe stuff, like the alc table/tablet and the repairfunction. And for another view of it, why does all mods in Tekkit have to be enabled? As said, I see Tekkit as a platform, not the solution on how a server should be set up. At first we started off without EE, then after we got it tested we were able to start enabling more and more of it, to suit our setup and how we feel our server should be. We run "without rules" (well as little as we possible can) so if we dont nerf, we cant use it. If players dont like it, i recommend that they serverhop some, and find something they like and suits theyre view of Tekkit SMP.
Niciboy8 Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 EE bypasses protections because no one has written a plugin which stops it from that. I, in fact am testing a safe EE plugin, which I wrote myself, and it works fine. After some more testing, I will begin distributing my plugin to certain servers which I think deserve it.
Niciboy8 Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Also, transmutation table doesn't cause any dupe bugs... or, at least as far as I can see. Finally, if you disable the fun grief and combat tools, you might as well disable EE.
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