perpetualgamer Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 EDIT: The following is no longer my view or opinion on anything. This thread has served its purpose I will not be the cause of any further flame. DISCLAIMER: Trolls need not read, nor reply. So for my spare time last night I was browsing the minecraftforums mod section, I came upon BTW. Seeing as how I've known that no one likes FC, I've never figured out why. So I went to listening to a Q&A on his mod's thread. First I must say that I think he sounds like everyone describes him to be. So it was funny to hear the blatant "jerk" tone of voice. That being said he brought up one point that has bothered me for awhile before his videos and I want to get the opinion of others on. I like discussion, even a bit of heated debate, but I don't want this turning into a flamewarfest, or a copyright argument. The question is: Many of the features of forge mods, aka IC2, BC, ETC. Are quickly ending up inside of RedPower, it's slowly becoming a mod that does everything that all the other mods do. Is Eloram playing fair by taking things that other mods already do and then modifying forge so that she can do them too? Is she breaking some kind of modder code of ethics by turning a pastime into a competitive environment. If you are against it, why? What benefits does it bring us to not have her do this. If you are for it, why? What benefits to do we get if she is doing this. I do not care to hear anything relating to copyright, that is not what this discussion is about, for the sake of discussion assume that mod makers have all rights to their work, and there is no legal grey area. I just want to see what you guys think, it kept me up a bit thinking about it, mostly because I love redpower, but I don't like Eloram's adaptation of BC (the biggest one she borrows from, imo).
hoho Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 Many of the features of forge mods' date=' aka IC2, BC, ETC. Are quickly ending up inside of RedPower, it's slowly becoming a mod that does everything that all the other mods do. [/quote']Care to bring specific examples where RP replaces some functionality of other mod? Note: "does something vaguely similar" is not replacing. Yes, it makes others able to make things work together easier and allow them to implement more complex stuff. No' date=' definitely not.As I said she is making life easier for all modders so they can focus on doing the higher-level stuff while she takes care of the complex low-level things.
perpetualgamer Posted May 23, 2012 Author Posted May 23, 2012 Care to bring specific examples where RP replaces some functionality of other mod? I tried really hard not to imply replace, but apparently I failed in that respect. While replaced is the best word in my immediate vocabulary, it does not fully describe what I'm trying to bring across. Buildcraft Pipes are my best example as its the most complete system eloram has written a "replacement" for. Why use buildcraft pipes when Tubes do everything better. Even if they don't do it better, there is a multitude of people now using redpower tubes instead of buildcraft pipes. I would ASSUME this makes SpaceToad a tiny bit sad. It's like he came up with the idea, then eloram took the idea and did basically the same thing and renamed it. Moral: Replaced isn't the right word, but it's the best word I have.
hoho Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 I tried really hard not to imply replace' date=' but apparently I failed in that respect. While replaced is the best word in my immediate vocabulary, it does not fully describe what I'm trying to bring across.[/quote']Yes, I understood that and I was trying to reach the conclusion that it's perfectly OK to do things differently while reaching the same result. Options are always good to have. The more there are the more internal competition there will be and end-users win in the end. Excatly, they do everything better and as an end-user I love it. He can always make his pipes do something even better so players would want to use his stuff instead. If a modder can't handle people taking their ideas and improving upon them and end up like FC they deserve little to no respect in my opinion. There are nearly no original ideas anyway and claiming monopoly on something will screw the end users and generally piss off everyone else but the author of the (improvement of the) idea
saintnicster Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 I'll just point out Eloraam's comments on this to add to the discussion. http://www.eloraam.com/?p=218
ShinShineSpark Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 DISCLAIMER: Trolls need not read, nor reply. So for my spare time last night I was browsing the minecraftforums mod section, I came upon BTW. Seeing as how I've known that no one likes FC, I've never figured out why. So I went to listening to a Q&A on his mod's thread. First I must say that I think he sounds like everyone describes him to be. So it was funny to hear the blatant "jerk" tone of voice. That being said he brought up one point that has bothered me for awhile before his videos and I want to get the opinion of others on. I like discussion, even a bit of heated debate, but I don't want this turning into a flamewarfest, or a copyright argument. The question is: Many of the features of forge mods, aka IC2, BC, ETC. Are quickly ending up inside of RedPower, it's slowly becoming a mod that does everything that all the other mods do. Is Eloram playing fair by taking things that other mods already do and then modifying forge so that she can do them too? Is she breaking some kind of modder code of ethics by turning a pastime into a competitive environment. If you are against it, why? What benefits does it bring us to not have her do this. If you are for it, why? What benefits to do we get if she is doing this. I do not care to hear anything relating to copyright, that is not what this discussion is about, for the sake of discussion assume that mod makers have all rights to their work, and there is no legal grey area. I just want to see what you guys think, it kept me up a bit thinking about it, mostly because I love redpower, but I don't like Eloram's adaptation of BC (the biggest one she borrows from, imo). Are you aware that FlowerChild, the author of BTW hates Eloram? He withdrew BTW from forge because he did not like how Forge was adding hooks that allowed Red Power to do things,. which is somewhat full retard since these hooks were one of the primary reasons forge was created. That said, just because mods draw inspiration from each other does not mean they are copying/stealing from each other. Eloram, the IC2 devs and the buildcraft devs are a jolly group that openly communicate with each other and share code. I do like your "no trolls" line in your opening post though, considering this topic is guaranteed to devolve into flamethrowers (as it always does).
perpetualgamer Posted May 23, 2012 Author Posted May 23, 2012 After reading Eloraam's post, I have to make sure I say this again. I like RedPower, I don't hate Eloraam, part of me thinks it's a little underhanded in what is supposed to be a non-competitive market (non-competitive meaning no money to be made). However I am glad that they are constantly improving upon things. My only real issue is that Eloraam seems to determine who improves what when. As the primary contributor to forge (which rocks) she has a lot of power over it and its tools; she has the ability to dictate the flow of mod development, and when she is creating her 'improvements' of other mods, she is in theory forcing them to stop whatever they are working on or doing to improve upon the system that she 'improved' just to keep relevance. That entire last paragraph was not spoken in fact, I speak from what I see, what I have heard, and what I can reasonably assume. So take that for what it is. EDIT: Are you aware that FlowerChild, the author of BTW hates Eloram? He withdrew BTW from forge because he did not like how Forge was adding hooks that allowed Red Power to do things,. which is somewhat full retard since these hooks were one of the primary reasons forge was created. That said, just because mods draw inspiration from each other does not mean they are copying/stealing from each other. Eloram, the IC2 devs and the buildcraft devs are a jolly group that openly communicate with each other and share code. I do like your "no trolls" line in your opening post though, considering this topic is guaranteed to devolve into flamethrowers (as it always does). Yes I'm aware that FC is kinda dumb, and that he is anti-social and extremely biased against Eloraam. He is NOT right, just so we are all clear, he is wrong. But the part about eloraam putting features from other mods into hers and improving upon them and adding tons of hooks so she can continue to do so is actually correct. He is dumb. Eloram is obviously incredibly talented, and skilled at what she does. Do I 100% agree with her methods, no. I agree with her methods 80%. If this was a money driven market, I would agree 100% as constant competition is needed in a market where money is on the line otherwise monopolies are formed. I have a hard time seeing this as the kind of market that needs the level of competition I PERSONALLY feel Eloraam is creating. I hope this doesn't turn into flamethrower fest cause that would defeat the purpose of honest discussion and debate. I'm trying to learn more about this issue, not spout that my way is the truth and eloraam is the golden thief.
Jay? Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 My only real issue is that Eloraam seems to determine who improves what when. As the primary contributor to forge (which rocks) she has a lot of power over it and its tools; she has the ability to dictate the flow of mod development, and when she is creating her 'improvements' of other mods, she is in theory forcing them to stop whatever they are working on or doing to improve upon the system that she 'improved' just to keep relevance. This argument has been used before, and it irritates me every time. Eloraam is the primary contributor by choice. Not because she's the only one authorized to do so. Forge has a whole team, and anyone from that team could make changes to the code. Eloraam is added the things that she thinks are useful, because that's how it works. If the others on the team were more proactive about including new hooks, forge would do more, and benefit other mod authors more greatly, but we can't expect eloraam to code in things that she doesn't see a use for.
perpetualgamer Posted May 23, 2012 Author Posted May 23, 2012 This argument has been used before, and it irritates me every time. Eloraam is the primary contributor by choice. Not because she's the only one authorized to do so. Forge has a whole team, and anyone from that team could make changes to the code. Eloraam is added the things that she thinks are useful, because that's how it works. If the others on the team were more proactive about including new hooks, forge would do more, and benefit other mod authors more greatly, but we can't expect eloraam to code in things that she doesn't see a use for. I agree 100% with everything you just said, which puts me at odds with my original thought. I dont know enough about the interworking's of the forge team. I always assumed based on what I heard (granted I probably hear a lot from BTW supports in disguise) that Eloraam kind of strong-arms people into working on specific things via the method I explain earlier. Making them compete with her improvements of their mods, taking their time away from advancement of the overall mod. However if that's completely untrue and just some rumor spread by BTW Supporters then I am incredibly misinformed and you can consider the truth to be in my head. Long live Eloraam?
ShinShineSpark Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 After reading Eloraam's post, I have to make sure I say this again. I like RedPower, I don't hate Eloraam, part of me thinks it's a little underhanded in what is supposed to be a non-competitive market (non-competitive meaning no money to be made). However I am glad that they are constantly improving upon things. My only real issue is that Eloraam seems to determine who improves what when. As the primary contributor to forge (which rocks) she has a lot of power over it and its tools; she has the ability to dictate the flow of mod development, and when she is creating her 'improvements' of other mods, she is in theory forcing them to stop whatever they are working on or doing to improve upon the system that she 'improved' just to keep relevance. That entire last paragraph was not spoken in fact, I speak from what I see, what I have heard, and what I can reasonably assume. So take that for what it is. EDIT: Yes I'm aware that FC is kinda dumb, and that he is anti-social and extremely biased against Eloraam. He is NOT right, just so we are all clear, he is wrong. But the part about eloraam putting features from other mods into hers and improving upon them and adding tons of hooks so she can continue to do so is actually correct. He is dumb. Eloram is obviously incredibly talented, and skilled at what she does. Do I 100% agree with her methods, no. I agree with her methods 80%. If this was a money driven market, I would agree 100% as constant competition is needed in a market where money is on the line otherwise monopolies are formed. I have a hard time seeing this as the kind of market that needs the level of competition I PERSONALLY feel Eloraam is creating. I hope this doesn't turn into flamethrower fest cause that would defeat the purpose of honest discussion and debate. I'm trying to learn more about this issue, not spout that my way is the truth and eloraam is the golden thief. The thing is, this is not a competition. They aren't competing in a modlympics, or playing elimination deathmatch. Eloram adding things to RP2 that fits in with her vision doesn't hurt other mods. Its not like she is adding forestry machines and IC2 tools to RP 2 anytime soon. IC2, buildcraft and forestry, Red Power 2. Yes, these mods are the driving force behind Forge. To say that hooks were invented solely because of RP 2 would be a lie. And if it weren't for these good folks innovating the field, mods like Thaumcraft 2 would never have been possible. Modding communities don't work like businesses, they are here first and foremost to create the mod they like and have it work the way they like to improve their gaming expereince. "Eloram raising the bar" doesn't really mean much, Forge updates wont render mods obsolete. Just the opposite really, as recent additions to forge allowed even BiomesXL to go from a base class jar mod that breaks everything to a forge mod that plays nice® with everything. You may wish to blot out everything you heard from FC and watch slowpoke101 (the guy behind Feed the beast) stream every once in a while. Or go watch Direwolfs FTB with the devs series. You will see Eloram in person, alongside Pahimar (EE2) and others. FC is the ostracized sob that nobody likes, where as most of the other major mod devs get along well and communicate freely with each other. Pretty much, don't let anything from FC or his cadre of moron followers sour your view of Elo and the rest of the modding community.
The_DarthMoogle Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 The entire modding community is slowly becoming a pissing contest. I'm not opposed to mod authors creating mods for the attention (bad phrase, I'm tired) on principle, but too many are beginning to compete against one another. Eloraam has a right to a lot of the pie, what with the devotion put into the project, but there is such thing as too much. The lack of block-ids used in RedPower has got to cause problems somewhere in the line, and is probably one of the main reasons FC couldn't stand working with Forge anymore. Conversely, FC withdrawing from forge/technic is somewhat selfpromoting, as it reinforces the fanbase and increases independant identity. Is it a good thing in the grand scheme of things? No. You heard it here first, and mark my words, the modding community will be the end of minecraft by the time the year is out.
ShinShineSpark Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 The entire modding community is slowly becoming a pissing contest. I'm not opposed to mod authors creating mods for the attention (bad phrase, I'm tired) on principle, but too many are beginning to compete against one another. Eloraam has a right to a lot of the pie, what with the devotion put into the project, but there is such thing as too much. The lack of block-ids used in RedPower has got to cause problems somewhere in the line, and is probably one of the main reasons FC couldn't stand working with Forge anymore. Conversely, FC withdrawing from forge/technic is somewhat selfpromoting, as it reinforces the fanbase and increases independant identity. Is it a good thing in the grand scheme of things? No. You heard it here first, and mark my words, the modding community will be the end of minecraft by the time the year is out. Yeah, um riiight. Could you make any valid statements to back up anything in your post? You are aware that the only people using BTW are kids that cant figure out how to solve their own block id conflicts or people that like over pretentious dribble poured right down their throat. And this is a fine example of what over exposure to FC and drinking gasoline does to ones brain. (And why threads like this devolve into flamethrower contests. Because the urge to kill it dead with fire is too strong).
The_DarthMoogle Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 I haven't had any exposure to FC, just going with what I know. I'm gonna go drink some gasoline and go to bed, and see whether I can get my tangential point across tomorrow.
hoho Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 My only real issue is that Eloraam seems to determine who improves what when. As the primary contributor to forge (which rocks) she has a lot of power over it and its tools; she has the ability to dictate the flow of mod development' date=' and when she is creating her 'improvements' of other mods, she is in theory forcing them to stop whatever they are working on or doing to improve upon the system that she 'improved' just to keep relevance.[/quote']The biggest "problem" is that she is simply doing a ton more work compared to other devs. If anyone would want to they could provide even more stuff to Forge without much problems. How so? Ther are no scenarios where competition does not end up being good for the end-users in the long run. If you think otherwise I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it.
miniboxer Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 Or go watch Direwolfs FTB with the devs series. You will see Eloram in person, alongside Pahimar (EE2) and others. WHICH EPISODE!?!? I have been trying to hear what eloraam sounds liek for the past month, this may be the fruit of my efforts!
gotyaoi Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 The first one, at the very least. More on topic, this reminds me a bunch of what people were saying about NEI and TMI. From a coding perspective, unless you are literally copying their code and claiming it as your own, you can't really say someone got ripped off. In my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion, You can't rip off someone's idea, they still have it if you use it. Everyone is free to implement their own solution to anything they see as worthy of their effort. In all likelihood, if you set two people at the same problem, you'll get two wildly different solutions, but equally valid solutions. And then you'll get two camps of people who like their idea and hate the other one, as well as anyone who likes it. But we all know that story. Case in point, pumps. While the IC2 and buildcraft pumps are moderately similar, the redpower implementation does things in a different way, transporting source blocks. The same could be said for any mod borrowing an idea from another. Variety is good, and the more interplay between mod developers you get, the more interesting ideas pop out. Come to think of it, you know what else this reminds me of? The Halloween Documents. Essentially a leaked microsoft document from 1998 whining about Linux. They're a bit too long to summarize, but here's a link. http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ What reminded me was the bit about the "Noosphere" in the first one. Edit: I suppose this link http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/ is a bit more what I was talking about, but the other is still a fun read.
Brunswick Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 Eh, it's like saying someone stole the idea for a sedan after they made a pickup. Redpower does things differently from all the mods it so supposedly 'copies', and that's more than enough. I haven't seen any copy-pasted code or anything of the sort. To me it's just a bunch of childish whining saying 'wah she stole my idea' and 'wah he took my work'. There's nothing new under the sun, everything that can be done has already been done or thought of before, so saying someone 'stole' your idea is just asinine.
ShinShineSpark Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 WHICH EPISODE!?!? I have been trying to hear what eloraam sounds liek for the past month, this may be the fruit of my efforts! Elo does not speak however, as her Mic was "misbehaving".
jakj Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 I didn't read all of this, nor will I, because I don't want to wade through the same old crap to find any new bits. I will say only this: Anything that Redpower does, it does differently. Its pipes are radically different, its machines are radically different, its world generation is radically different; Everything about Redpower is radically different from every other mod it's "copying". So there's no point even thinking about how what one mod does, another is doing, because it's not even the same damn thing, and if you can't understand that (note I said "understand", not "agree"), then you can fuck right off and leave the real men and women to their business. omgzors redpowr computer lol bye cc NO FUCK YOU OH MY GOD GIVE ME BACK MY CHILDHOOD YOU MARMELADE SONS OF BITCHES
Neowulf Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/05/23/217204/minecraft-mod-adds-emulated-6502-processor Slashdot ran a story about the latest redpower2 release. That's a couple scoops of bragging rights for her.
PsychoBob Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 Personally, I love Elooram's ability as a modder. Redpower...just adds soooo much stuff. I've been experimenting for a while, and still haven't gotten to everything it can do. I thought at first that redpower was just a simpler way to use redstone...it's this, and sooo mcuh more. I was blown away by everything she added. On the topic of 'copying' Jakj pretty much summed up my thoughts on it.
xxmikegigsxx Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 I think eloraam redoing thinks from other mods is crossing a line. Her mod started as easy redstone but now she seems to be adding in things just to give her mod more features. That wouldn't be bad if they were original ideas. When she borrows(?) an idea for part of her mod I don't see that as ok unless she gives some feature to the other modder.
jakj Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 I think eloraam redoing thinks from other mods is crossing a line. Her mod started as easy redstone but now she seems to be adding in things just to give her mod more features. That wouldn't be bad if they were original ideas. When she borrows(?) an idea for part of her mod I don't see that as ok unless she gives some feature to the other modder. Oh, cut the bullshit. This is as imbecilic as FlowerChild bitching about her igniter copying his whateverthefuck. Don't get me wrong: I stopped liking Eloraam as soon as I realized how hypocritical she is (just like most "big" modders, it seems). But I won't let you get away with specious and shallow nonsense.
xxmikegigsxx Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 I am 95% 100% sure he asked for opinion, so that is what I gave. You have your opinion I have mine. However I didn't ask you to call mine bullshit and to say it was wrong.
hoho Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 Her mod started as easy redstone but now she seems to be adding in things just to give her mod more features.Again, how exactly is this a bad thing for the end-user? [edit] However I didn't ask you to call mine bullshit and to say it was wrong.But can I still call it stupid when there is no good reasoning behind the opinion? :)
Recommended Posts