Spacetoad stepping down as Buildcraft's developer. :o

[OmegaJasam]

It's the same thing that happons in all creative communites.

You get the waten pirates/ripoffs/copys.

The people who belive that is wrong.

And the 'YOU WILL NOT DOES ANYTHINGZ TO MY WORKZ AS I HAS RIGHTZ' crowd.

The last group is huge on drama, and you often see it in places like deviant art or similar communities. Where basicaly people think creating something gives you the right to be a douche.

Most of the objections are on 'principle' and more about an egoboost then anything else regardless of what they say or belive.

And thats before you bring the /real/ laws into the equation.

The thing about mod-packs, so long as they are giving proper credit, is that if you object to them, you are saying that you expect your users to add all these mods manualy, or that you don't want them to have a choice in what they play. Generaly, your just making the people supporting you's life harder, and treating them poorly.

Not to mention giving moral justification to the less rule abiding folks on the other side. Which makes evrything messyer.

[linkthegamer]

That is true. Some times it can even just be the fanbase of something that attacks someone trying to innovate on a mod. Loyal fans of anything are a bit nuts and will attack stuff until they are told not to in some cases.

The main thing I find weird is as long as the other person isn't making a direct copy, why try to kill them off. Mods need competition to keep them innovative, if someone sees a way to improve something and they original modder doesn't want to merge it in or they decide not to work with the modder as long as they didn't steal the code the original modder used people should be getting on them for stealing the idea. The original modder should innovate if needed and make there mod even better instead of having goons kill the other project. Plus like has been mentioned before, most modders don't even know copyright law that well and just figure if you made it then you own it and you will win in court if you sue. Really if the modding community didn't have all the petty drama we could be somewhere. But stuff is constantly fragmenting because this person doesn't like that person and people are using ties with influential people to promote their stuff. It is all just so odd.

[killerx09]

Guys, I kinda remember something. I remembered once that someone mentioned that Eloraam was cranky about her mod being in technic until someone made a donation to her. This kinda sounds fishy.

Also, off topic here, what does the new update actually do? I know the custom directionary will work with 1.2.3, but I got no idea what that does.

[linkthegamer]

Guys, I kinda remember something. I remembered once that someone mentioned that Eloraam was cranky about her mod being in technic until someone made a donation to her. This kinda sounds fishy.

Also, off topic here, what does the new update actually do? I know the custom directionary will work with 1.2.3, but I got no idea what that does.

What I get from reading the news update is that all it does is allows 1.2.3 to be installed to and ran from the vanilla directory instead of needing to install into and run out of the .minecraft folder. So now you can play vanilla 1.2.3 from the launcher instead of being stuck on vanilla 1.1.0.

[Pilchard123]

As seen HERE, copyright is an automatic right, you don't have to register for it. Modders "HAZ RIGHTS".

For your consideration, I also present a few quotes from the ToS and Brand Guidelines, as accessed 5th March 2012, at 18:28 pm GMT.

ToS (http://www.minecraft.net/terms):

If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use this for griefing, though, and remember not to distribute the changes.

- Note that this says that distributing changes to the ORIGINAL SOURCE, but nothing about things separate to it.

Brand Guidelines (http://www.minecraft.net/brand-guidelines):

Any tools you write for the game from scratch belongs to you. [...] Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, including selling them for money. We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't.

- As I said before, if the plugin/mod is completely your own, it is yours, and so is covered by copyright. You may do whatever you like with it, including being "a douche". While there are good and bad ways of telling people that you don't want them to use your IP, you have the right to tell them to back off.

We are also quite relaxed about other non-commercial things so feel free to create and share [...] independently created mods (that don't use Minecraft Assets), fan art, machinima etc;

Need I say anything about this one?

[KakerMix]

blah

And since not everyone is in the UK, I shall direct you to this:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?

No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work

So while its within their rights to get pissy with their mods, if someone DID want to bring a lawsuit to bear on someone for a minecraft mod (In the U.S. at least) you'd not only have to pay for copyright registration, you'd also have to serve whoever you think is breaching your copyright. You'd also have to show that somehow this person has caused damages. This could prove to be difficult to do considering Technic doesn't claim the mods are theirs, we don't 'steal' anything and we gladly donate and tell others to donate. The mods themselves aren't being sold either. We also don't accept donations at all and instead direct them to the modders themselves.

Last I heard the IC2 team has had over 1k in donations to them since being inculded in Technic. Exposure is a good thing.

[Wudzerivovneach]

"We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't."

In other words, if they want to, they can just call anything appended to the game "not a plugin" and rob someone blind. Happily, they haven't. However, the mod authors really have as much right to their work as pack makers the Technic team in reality. That is, if Mojang were to pull the plug, both parties would be equally disallowed to distribute such things, as well as most anyone else who's not a master of legality and can't basically warp any law on the books to suit their needs and convince a judge that their interpretation is wholly correct. As in, no one in the Minecraft community and probably very few or no human beings alive today period. I've done a small amount of unofficial study of law, and it's not at all easy, trust me. This I learned from, as I said, a small amount.

[linkthegamer]

"We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't."

In other words, if they want to, they can just call anything appended to the game "not a plugin" and rob someone blind. Happily, they haven't. However, the mod authors really have as much right to their work as pack makers the Technic team in reality. That is, if Mojang were to pull the plug, both parties would be equally disallowed to distribute such things, as well as most anyone else who's not a master of legality and can't basically warp any law on the books to suit their needs and convince a judge that their interpretation is wholly correct. As in, no one in the Minecraft community and probably very few or no human beings alive today period. I've done a small amount of unofficial study of law, and it's not at all easy, trust me. This I learned from, as I said, a small amount.

Software law is infinitely more confusing since unlike most tangible mediums there is only so many different ways to efficiently program something.

Also they included that line to keep control on the content. It has to be vague so it is harder to get off on a technicality. If they said "A plugin/tool is anything that interfaces with the main class files directly." then as long as you made a tool within the bounds of the law but that somehow bypassed that system to let you do something nasty Mojang would be unable to shut you down. The clause could be used for evil of course but it is more a preemptive measure to provide Mojang with the legal power to have any dangerous mods removed and control what mods are allowed to do. Best real world example I can think of is the would have the legal power to shut down griefing clients and mods if they got out of hand.

[OmegaJasam]

*snip for length*

Most people here are well aware that content creators have rights. Everyone has various rights. Most people fall in the sensable middle ground.

The thing is, even if you have the 'right' to be a douche. Your at the end of the day, still a douche.

This goes for creators and consumers alike.

Weither you balently violate peoples rights, Be a douche about what you've created, or Rabidly defend peoples right to do so like it somehow justifys it. At the end of the day, you just create drama, and make it worse for /everyone/. People start using the drama as justification, and then it spirils into stupidity.

The losers are generaly the 90% of sensable people who want to support mod creators, enjoy their content, and never involve themselves in the drama. Or the people who happon to make similar mods. Or the creators who make their own versions to compete with features the community want. Or the poor community managers (if their not sourcing the drama themselves.)

Not to mention all the time /wasted/, the people and creators genuninly saddended and disapointed, and the communities that outright /die/.

And if you look at the posts above me, you'll relaise that honestly, 90% of it is hot air, wouldn't hold in a court, and if it did would set dangerious precidents that would destroy modding entirely. Defending Theives, or ego crazy creators, doesn;t help anybody. Better spending your time encouraging the good ones.

[7rex]

That's huamnity for you... allways assuming the worst of everyone :'( . Just wondering though why do you guys think the technic has this general bad image to modders despite being really good and honest in reality? What happened to cause such a thought to occur?

When Kakermix made the first Technic pack he wrote an abusive letter to the Minecraft modding community. Most of what he said was correct but it was a bit harsh.

This may have something to do with the hate levelled at Technic.

I was on the Industrial craft forums when the Technic pack first came out and there was a serious amount of anger over the pack.

It pretty much disappeared though when the donations started rolling in, at least for Industrial craft anyway.

[KakerMix]

When Kakermix made the first Technic pack he wrote an abusive letter to the Minecraft modding community. Most of what he said was correct but it was a bit harsh.

This may have something to do with the hate levelled at Technic.

I was on the Industrial craft forums when the Technic pack first came out and there was a serious amount of anger over the pack.

It pretty much disappeared though when the donations started rolling in, at least for Industrial craft anyway.

Well, it was mainly a 'look I fucking hate the community ok I am doing this because I like the product' note in the readme, but yeah. I meant it and it still is the same sentiment I have today. The Minecraft community IS terrible, there are a million +1 things I can point to show why I think this. IN SPITE of this, there is some amazing content that comes out for it. The funny thing about all the kids that scream "TECHNIC IS STEALING ABLOOBALOO", especially on the IC2 forums, is Alblaka gave me persmission first, before anyone else. He said "Hey great! Get rid of that note and you'll get permission " so I dropped the note and became a bit more professional.

The hate we get now is leftover stuff. Spacetoad was ok at first, until he likened using Buildcraft without his permission was akin to stealing beer. I disagreed with him, and reminded him that no matter how many adf.ly links you put a download link behind it isn't selling. I also reminded him that the exposure he got was because of the Yogscast covering Technic, and that exposure is great. He claimed that they 'would have covered it anyway'. (not according to Lewis) He got furious and flew off the handle, and we stopped talking.

So yeah. I've always been about showing people why modded Minecraft is awesome and I'm still about that. More people playing with these toys is better for everyone. The Launcher is a direct product of that ideal. These forums are the anti-thesis to the Minecraft community. The Yogscast picking up and showcasing the Technic pack is because its what players want. The Yogsbox being in the Launcher now is a reflection of this. Players want to play the game, they don't want to unrar .jar files and modify class files and whatever the the fuck. The want to press a button and play the game.

The drama is just technicolor noise.

[hindos]

'The hate we get now is leftover stuff. Spacetoad was ok at first, until he likened using Buildcraft without his permission was akin to stealing beer. I disagreed with him, and reminded him that no matter how many adf.ly links you put a download link behind it isn't selling. I also reminded him that the exposure he got was because of the Yogscast covering Technic, and that exposure is great. He claimed that they 'would have covered it anyway'. (not according to Lewis) He got furious and flew off the handle, and we stopped talking. ' -Kakermix

What do you mean, did the technicpacl include buildcraft without permission and use ad-fly links?

[Ragnar Homsar]

What do you mean, did the technicpacl include buildcraft without permission and use ad-fly links?

A) I'm sure the Technic pack has never ever asked for permission from anyone, and KakerMix is a big proponent of not using Adfly.

[hindos]

A) I'm sure the Technic pack has never ever asked for permission from anyone, and KakerMix is a big proponent of not using Adfly.

What! I find it hard to believe they never asked for permission. That's breaking copyright...

[KakerMix]

What! I find it hard to believe they never asked for permission. That's property theft :'(

Its true I stole their table. Its mine. I sold in on ebay through an adf.ly link! Woo wooo!

[hindos]

Its true I stole their table. Its mine. I sold in on ebay through an adf.ly link! Woo wooo!

In all seriousness though , you really don't have written (screenshoted) permission to include the mods in the pack and instead just googled up their mods put em in dah pack adn got it over with? Even if it benefits them that's stealing all their hardwork and effort...

[Blacktooth]

In all seriousness though , you really don't have written (screenshoted) permission to include the mods in the pack and instead just googled up their mods put em in dah pack adn got it over with? Even if it benefits them that's stealing all their hardwork and effort...

Copyright violations are NOT theft.

You should read this very carefully: http://www.minecraft.net/terms

If you are worried about the mod authors, go donate $1. That dollar will cover thousands of ad.fly downloads.

[hindos]

Well I now understand why some people hate technic because this isn't very fair buisness people, I'm making a modpack as well and asking permission from each and every author and screenshotting it, that's how technic should go about doing it to-nice and honest, using persuasive language to try and convince people of their quality and intentions. If you guys want to get proper respect, the launcher is great and everything but without permissions a lot of people won't like you. God .... not nice to have my golden image of technic get crushed like that :'( ...

Or we're all mis-interpreting this and kakermix meant that they are angry that he doesn't use ad-fly as they do, so they are 'stealing money away from them'. Please say it's this <--

[vibur]

Well I now understadn understand why people hate technic. This is dirty buisness business people,. I'm making a modpack as well, and asking permission from each and every author and screenshotting it. If you guys want to get proper respect, the launcher is great and everything but without permissions a lot of people won't like you. God not nice to have my golden image of technic get crushed like that. :'( ...

You ever listen to a radio talk show and, close to the end of the show, a listener that just tuned in calls in to talk about some topic that was covered in the first 20 minutes of the show? That's you and this is the phone call.

[hindos]

That quote is wrong, besides if you look back i was reading this thread from the beginning

Anyway copyright and legal stuff aside I don't care about those, I care that one might spend countless hours creating a mod and wanting to keep it based in your own website for all to downlaod it from and then to suddenly find out your mod is included in a pack without them ever telling/asking you is not nice. What's most important however, is whether or not if you received an email from one of these modders asking you to remove the mod, would you remove it? Anyway stop bearing down on my typos man, my keyboard is badly damaged from being used so much and that's kinda douchey of you to use my typos as a way of saying 'I'm better then you because I can spell properly'...

[7rex]

Well I now understand why some people hate technic because this isn't very fair buisness people, I'm making a modpack as well and asking permission from each and every author and screenshotting it, that's how technic should go about doing it to-nice and honest, using persuasive language to try and convince people of their quality and intentions. If you guys want to get proper respect, the launcher is great and everything but without permissions a lot of people won't like you. God .... not nice to have my golden image of technic get crushed like that :'( ...

Or we're all mis-interpreting this and kakermix meant that they are angry that he doesn't use ad-fly as they do, so they are 'stealing money away from them'. Please say it's this <--

While I too would love that to be the case unfortunately it’s not reality.

I personally feel that mod makers are much more open to mod packs now that Technic is out and the interest and money that it generates for the mod makers is known.

Problem is of course that Kakermix, in doing the Technic pack, pissed off a lot of the mod makers and some just won’t forgive and forget regardless of how much money/fame they get from it.

I myself have donated ~$70 to various mod makers and I make a point to tell them it’s because of Technic.

I addition, I donated $30 to Industrial Craft. To make that $30 thru Adfly would’ve taken ~75,000 clicks. Winging about loss of Adfly money is stupid!

[hindos]

While I too would love that to be the case unfortunately it’s not reality.

I personally feel that mod makers are much more open to mod packs now that Technic is out and the interest and money that it generates for the mod makers is known.

Problem is of course that Kakermix, in doing the Technic pack, pissed off a lot of the mod makers and some just won’t forgive and forget regardless of how much money/fame they get from it.

I myself have donated ~$70 to various mod makers and I make a point to tell them it’s because of Technic.

I addition, I donated $30 to Industrial Craft. To make that $30 thru Adfly would’ve taken ~75,000 clicks. Winging about loss of Adfly money is stupid!

Wow that's very nice of you , I'd love to donate too but can't (it was allready hard enough to persuade them into buying me minecraft : ) . More money isn't a excuse for doing things like this IMO... Also I disagree with people being more open, I get loads of NO's from modders(and no i don't say 'WHY U NO GIVE ME YA MOD IN MAH PACK BROTHA?!') but that might be the reason they were 'forced' to do things in such (for lack of a better word) dishonest ways. Ok that's all history and all that, but now that everyone is more open adn starting to respect technic isn't it possible to be a bit nicer and smoother with this stuff and get the permissions despite allready including them in the pack?

[KakerMix]

well and asking permission from each and every author and screenshotting it, that's how technic should go about doing it to-nice and honest, using persuasive language to try and convince people of their quality and intentions. If you guys want to get proper respect, the launcher is great and everything but without permissions a lot of people won't like you.

I care that one might spend countless hours creating a mod and wanting to keep it based in your own website for all to downlaod it from and then to suddenly find out your mod is included in a pack without them ever telling/asking you is not nice.

Ok that's all history and all that, but now that everyone is more open adn starting to respect technic isn't it possible to be a bit nicer and smoother with this stuff and get the permissions despite allready including them in the pack?

Let me explain something to you. Technic and Tekkit would not exist if I were to ask permission at the very beginning. It flatly would not have existed. Technic has changed that of course, since we went ahead without permissions. I know you are young, so this is stuff you 'get' when you are older.

I made Technic for some friends on the Something Awful forums. It was never meant to go outside of that, but since Simon and Lewis of the Yogscast (Yogs = Ye Olde Goon Squad, Something Awful members are called 'goons) were on there, they saw it, liked it, did a video series on it. It exploded violently and went way outside my control to contain it, so I rolled with it, and here we are. Technic not getting permission was decided before I had a say in it. Since I was already branded a thief and a terrible horrible person that has ruined everything forever, I had zero reason to try to go ahead and ask permission after the fact. Spacetoad especially was the nail in the coffin when I talked with him. Why would I bother trying to placate a community whose attitude I loathed and who hated me? Where is the incentive? Instead I forged ahead, watched as other people who felt the same way gather around me, and we started making some great things.

If this bothers you hindos, you don't have to use Technic and instead can wrestle with the ugly hag that is the Minecraft Community. We'll be over here instead, trying to forge a more intelligent, nicer, higher quality community.

EDIT

If it makes you feel any better, I've donated a little under $400 dollars to various modders since this whole thing started. Again, this isn't something I throw in people's faces or brag about because I don't care what my reputation is, or what the Minecraft community thinks of me/us here at Technic. Instead we'll exist outside.

[hindos]

Let me explain something to you. Technic and Tekkit would not exist if I were to ask permission at the very beginning. It flatly would not have existed. Technic has changed that of course, since we went ahead without permissions. I know you are young, so this is stuff you 'get' when you are older.

I made Technic for some friends on the Something Awful forums. It was never meant to go outside of that, but since Simon and Lewis of the Yogscast (Yogs = Ye Olde Goon Squad, Something Awful members are called 'goons) were on there, they saw it, liked it, did a video series on it. It exploded violently and went way outside my control to contain it, so I rolled with it, and here we are. Technic not getting permission was decided before I had a say in it. Since I was already branded a thief and a terrible horrible person that has ruined everything forever, I had zero reason to try to go ahead and ask permission after the fact. Spacetoad especially was the nail in the coffin when I talked with him. Why would I bother trying to placate a community whose attitude I loathed and who hated me? Where is the incentive? Instead I forged ahead, watched as other people who felt the same way gather around me, and we started making some great things.

If this bothers you hindos, you don't have to use Technic and instead can wrestle with the ugly hag that is the Minecraft Community. We'll be over here instead, trying to forge a more intelligent, nicer, higher quality community.

Thanks for explaining how technic was created but wasn't what you explained quite a lot of time ago, didn't the modders cool off by now? Maybe if you try to get permissions now(not necessarily all) it would make technic seem even better then it allready is . It does appear however that it wasn't your intention , initially, to do these things and everything just escalated out of control. I understand why and how these things happened now, but you are like-wise branding the entire minecraft community. All though most of them are as you describe, not everyone is there are still a few honest people trying to tame the bear. There's a lot of modders in the pack, I find it hard to believe they're all douches ...

Anyway this wasn't about me choosing whether or not to use technic, this is about whether you can try to mend those events. The incentive being ,whether you dislike someone's personality and actions or not, to sooth any hard feeling left behind and let alone those who are too stubborn to be healed. The technic pack is a great and succesful addition to minecraft , and has had lots of work go into it.

One thing though when you say 'minecraft community' which communitie(S) are you pointing at? Since technic is related to minecraft it is a minecraft community... so i assume you mean those terribly unorganised forums. I agree that these forums which try to uphold a new sense of quality actually might be having a effect on not just technic but to anyone who stumbles upon it, so whether your reasons or not if people truly understand what occured and what technic really is it might turn the minecraft community as a whole in a positive direction. That's what I strive for, not community factions fighting endless battles filled with rage, it should be a nice harmonic , sharing, fair, and rewarding experience. That's the incentive to try and tame the bear.

[KakerMix]

Thanks for explaining how technic was created but wasn't what you explained quite a lot of time ago, didn't the modders cool off by now? Maybe if you try to get permissions now(not necessarily all) it would make technic seem even better then it allready is . It does appear however that it wasn't your intention , initially, to do these things and everything just escalated out of control. I understand why and how these things happened now, but you are like-wise branding the entire minecraft community. All though most of them are as you describe, not everyone is there are still a few honest people trying to tame the bear. There's a lot of modders in the pack, I find it hard to believe they're all douches ...

Anyway this wasn't about me choosing whether or not to use technic, this is about whether you can try to mend those events. The incentive being ,whether you dislike someone's personality and actions or not, to sooth any hard feeling left behind and let alone those who are too stubborn to be healed. The technic pack is a great and succesful addition to minecraft , and has had lots of work go into it.

One thing though when you say 'minecraft community' which communitie(S) are you pointing at? Since technic is related to minecraft it is a minecraft community... so i assume you mean those terribly unorganised forums. I agree that these forums which try to uphold a new sense of quality actually might be having a effect on not just technic but to anyone who stumbles upon it, so whether your reasons or not if people truly understand what occured and what technic really is it might turn the minecraft community as a whole in a positive direction. That's what I strive for, not community factions fighting endless battles filled with rage, it should be a nice harmonic , sharing, fair, and rewarding experience. That's the incentive to try and tame the bear.

Only a few select modders seem to be pains in the ass out of spite, most are really cool. That still doesn't change the fact that the community they work in is toxic. I am branding the entire community yes, this is on purpose. The vast majority of it is bad, I legitimately think this and say this flatly. Like a scientist describing why water boils when it is heated.

The community I am pointing at is squarely at the Minecraft Forums. Its a poorly-run, slow, not-moderated popularity contest. It also likes to think it is alone, like there are no other groups out there that play Minecraft. Go mention Technic on there, see what sort of reaction you get. Pretty sure we are literally Hitler.