M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 May I ask one thing here, with regards to mod developers not respecting end users and not giving back to the community. They do nothing but give to the community, I sit here daily watching and listening in as they are busting their guts trying to bring the mods up to date. This particular iteration is especially difficult because they are not just trying to accommodate fundamental changes to minecraft code, but also there have been major changes to Forge code to. Yet they all all there every day trying to provide the end user with the best possible mods they can. You may not agree with every decision they make, I know I do not. But we can all at least show they some respect and not call them all sorts of nasty names. Remember you always have the choice to just not use the mod. (just a note, you said may I ask, but didnt ask anything, which is fine, but just wanted to say) And the mod authors deserve the respect they get, and it would be great if the technic guys made that permlist to show their respect to the authors, if only those, what I call, trolls wouldnt be here, that would be a lot easier though, because giving technic a bad name by going: omgzzz technic haz no permz they be illegal doesnt help them get more legit in any way.
Air_Gamer Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 May I ask one thing here, with regards to mod developers not respecting end users and not giving back to the community. They do nothing but give to the community, I sit here daily watching and listening in as they are busting their guts trying to bring the mods up to date... When I said community in my past post, I was more referring to other developers rather then the end user, I was trying to explain what I thought psicraft was thinking and do not necessary have the same beliefs. I'll edit my post to make this clearer. I do understand that keeping up with Minecraft code changes is a difficult task and that mod developers are devoting a significant amount of free time for there mods, showing how devoted they are.
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 derp yeah, i didnt did I. I was kind of trying to say 'May I ask that people at least recognise that mod developers are making these mods for the end user and irrespective of whether or not people agree with the way they do things, they do actually care about end users and the experience they have.
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 derp yeah, i didnt did I. I was kind of trying to say 'May I ask that people at least recognise that mod developers are making these mods for the end user and irrespective of whether or not people agree with the way they do things, they do actually care about end users and the experience they have. I dont disagree with you, its a hobby, theyre making mods for people to enjoy, without them a huge Amount of extremely fun content would be lost. A huge amount of content that keeps people attached to minecraft and also gets people to enjoy the game a lot more, all in all, modders are contributing a lot of time, effort and hard work into the fun of other people, and (again) deserve the respect they get Edit: They do make mistakes, at least what I think of as mistakes, but that doesnt immediately undo Everything I just stated above here, they do more good than harm, way more.
Moderators Munaus Posted August 25, 2012 Moderators Posted August 25, 2012 With all the modders egos that Kaker has touched, and all the people He has moved, you start to wonder: Is Kakermix secretly a groper?
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Cheapshot has been viewing this for 9 mins, hes making a huge post for sure xd
Cheap Shot Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 No I've been catching up. I'm in pretty rough shape today so im running a bit slower then usual. I don't usually drink very much but it was a birthday and karaoke was involved. I'll do what I can to give my input. Kaker is on the other side the the country then he usually is for a few weeks so it'll probably just be me. Hope you don't mind slowpoke. (just a note, you said may I ask, but didnt ask anything, which is fine, but just wanted to say) And the mod authors deserve the respect they get, and it would be great if the technic guys made that permlist to show their respect to the authors, if only those, what I call, trolls wouldnt be here, that would be a lot easier though, because giving technic a bad name by going: omgzzz technic haz no permz they be illegal doesnt help them get more legit in any way. The authors aren't the people we would be appeasing with a list. Most of the people so far who have been demanding a list of permissions have been giving off that "Where's the birth certificate Obama!" vibe. Slowpoke has been a breath of fresh air. While he of course has a bias and probably doesn't like us off the bat, he's making the effort to control it while he's here and that's nice to see. You can really tell by a persons posts when they are unreachable. We get our fair share of people pretending they're here to "get the truth" or "hear the other side" but it's usually pretty clear they wan't nothing of the sort. I can tell you're not one of those people so I'll so what I can to discuss it with you. There has already been a significant amount of ground covered so I'm not sure where to start.
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 No I've been catching up. I'm in pretty rough shape today so im running a bit slower then usual. I don't usually drink very much but it was a birthday and karaoke was involved. I'll do what I can to give my input. Kaker is on the other side the the country then he usually is for a few weeks so it'll probably just be me. Hope you don't mind slowpoke. The authors aren't the people we would be appeasing with a list. Most of the people so far who have been demanding a list of permissions have been giving off that "Where's the birth certificate Obama!" vibe. Slowpoke has been a breath of fresh air. While he of course has a bias and probably doesn't like us off the bat, he's making the effort to control it while he's here and that's nice to see. You can really tell by a persons posts when they are unreachable. We get our fair share of people pretending they're here to "get the truth" or "hear the other side" but it's usually pretty clear they wan't nothing of the sort. I can tell you're not one of those people so I'll so what I can to discuss it with you. There has already been a significant amount of ground covered so I'm not sure where to start. I by no means want to make you guys feel like im forcing you to make that list, it was a suggestion, or a comment on that point at most, the problem with those "unreachable" people is, they dont stop, unless you give them what they want, which in this situation is that list, slowpoke mentioned this too, theyre like a locked cage, the key to that cage would be that list, I dont know if theres another way out or a second key, its just that im worried for the pack (and you guys), thats why I was suggesting posting that list, I dont know what your plans are, but im okay with them. Even if you (plural) dont make the list, its your choise after all. EDIT: and sorry for slow reactions, its rlly late here and im thinking slow XD, going to sleep in a min.
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 To be honest there has not really been much that people can cover, as most of the actual facts are not there for people to see. I can tell you that of course I have bias towars the mod developers point of view. But here is the thing that concerns me, Why if these mod developers are friendly with the technic pack admins now and why if you have permission to use all of these mods is there even a need for this discussion. Everyone reading this already knows that I talk to a lot of these people both in public and in private. If they were supportive of your pack I wouldn't be here. I am not here on wild hearsay or false illusions. I actually took the time to talk to all the mod developers. What I found was on the mods in the technic pack, you currently have 'permission' to use around 90% of the mods through open general licences etc. There are a couple that are being used without consents. However and this is where it becomes important, I cannot find a single mod developer that is willing to openly say they actively support Technic. This is something that I do not understand if technic is truly a legitimate pack. Because the only thing this has resulted in is me putting together a team to make an alternative pack. One question no one has taken the time to ask themselves or me is this. Why am I making FTB The Mod Pack, it certainly isn't for the fame that goes with it and no one is getting rich off of it lol. I dont now nor did I ever really want to do it. As I am sure you guys can testify to, it is far to much like hard work for me. If the mod developers were supportive of technic, they could just come out either in public or in private and say dont waste your time, just use technic its fine. That obviously hasnt happened. I will answer the question now and I hope a few people will look at this and understand what this means. I was asked to make the mod pack, I have been asked to make it for quite some time and I have resisted. I was not asked by end users and I was not asked by FTB people. I was specifically asked by Mod Developers to do this, not all of them by any means, but a lot more than one of them for sure. They did not ask me because it benefits them becuase it certainly doesn't. the FTB Mod Pack will be distributed without any advertising links involved. There will be one advert on the site and that is for the company that is providing the web hosting. Nobody gets paid for this, we do this because we are in the very fortunate position to be able to do something like this and we see it as a responsibility to do this and do it correctly, for the benefit of all. Of course this all sounds very enlightened and high and mighty etc. But I can only go off my track record, hopefully that speaks for itself.
Air_Gamer Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Just theorising as to why they don't just say Technic is fine, ignoring the issue of the (unknown to the public) list of mods that are used without consent. it is well know that some mod authors detest Technic (I.e. sengir), along with the general hate from a sizeable portion of the community, other modders who are otherwise indifferent to Technic (assuming there are some) would feel it unwise to advertise it as a suitable pack for fear of backlash from fellow modders and the community. There is also the issue of Kaker's past damage. From cheap shot's post, it seems that all modders have some kind-of dislike to Technic as is supported by slowpokes posts. This is pure speculation and from what your saying is likely to be wrong. you'll have to ask the modders themselves as to the reason for requesting a modpack. I suspect the answer is along the lines of starting a modpack how it should be done (as you stated) and because you regularly speak with the mod authors earning there trust (something which may be difficult for an outside party to do). On a side-note, I'm aware that direwolf gets ask occasional to produce a modpack, would it be possible for you to make a 'Direwolf season X' pack or will he decide to use the FTB pack?
Cheap Shot Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Before I even begin to chat with Slowpoke here however I'd like to take a moment to pick apart this following post. It caught my eye as I was reading through and it's particularly hostile and unproductive. I'd almost think you were trolling andromeida but I've seen the same sort of posts on other forums and I want you to know that wont fly here. This is the kind of post you make when you know people with a differing opining aren't allowed to properly respond. Really now, this is no way to post in a discussion. If you read the full discussion on this thread as a neutral bystander you see that there is a definite feel that the technic community has a single view and are not willing to even accept another persons' view. From where this 'community spirit' has come from I do not know, be it Kaker and his preaching or just the community as a whole, but what I do see is that Slowpoke has accepted and responded to the views of the other members in a controlled and thought out manner, something it seems the technic community is (mostly) uncapable of. First off, reading the rest of your post I have a hard time accepting that you are a "neutral bystander" but ok, lets continue. My reading through this thread, I have not noticed this at all. Yes I agree, Slowpoke has been very civil and good about responding to people with differing viewpoints. I resent and reject your negative blanket assertions however. This thread has been full of different opinions and with few exceptions people have been reasonable and open. There is of course going to roughly be two sides, but that's unavoidable. Your statements are unfounded and unreasonable. As a programmer myself, I feel that the view mod makers should have no control over their own hard work is proposterous. This view is only promoted by the people who want stuff for free, easily, and don't give a damn about the producers of the great work, this is seen not just here but also torrenting music and Pirating games. Everything is already free, just not easy. This situation is not at all comparable to torrenting for profit works. Making such comparisons is useless and isn't going to lead anywhere productive. This very reason, however, is why Technic was born, ease of use to the consumer. I do agree Technic is a brilliant idea and the concept of a modpack should be embraced and promoted by mod authors, however if their work has been stolen by the pack, which is has, Who's decided this? Not us. We don't feel we've "stolen" anything. We mirror free downloads in an effort to make them more accessible and available to a much wider audience. We make every effort to claim no ownership or take no credit for any work that isn't ours, the very opposite. We do everything in our power to educate people about the mods and promote the authors. Saying we don't care about mod authors at all is ridiculous. Just go take a look at our main site. We put their mods in the pack because we love their work, and want to give them more popularity and recognition, not steal it. We aren't throwing in a bunch of mods just to stick it to authors or for any malicious reason. If we didn't care about them, these forums wouldn't exist, since we created them just to help ease concerns they had over the influx of Technic users they had to provide support for. We listened and did what we could. That's not what people who don't care do. And to address this: they should reserve the right to disagree with the perpetrators and to withdraw their work, a privilidge which has not been granted to them. What do you base this on? This is 100% just speculation and "Technic is evil" bandwagoning. No one has ever come to us and asked to be taken out of Technic. Not even Sengir ever did. We decided to remove the mod once we discovered the malicious code to protect the end user and to try to head off a situation that was clearly bubbling under the surface. We would have preferred to discuss it as Forestry is a great mod that we love, and we didn't want to have to deprive people of it over what should have been personal grievances. That's a whole other bag of bees though and I'll discuss permissions and asking for permissions before or after the fact later with Slowpoke. For now just understand we've never come out and said "fuck the modders". That's just something people have decided we say while wringing our hands and slitting puppy throats. I'm not naive enough to think that all the modders love us, or are buddy buddy. They aren't. Of course they aren't. Some are, but for the most part we've gotten permissions because they've come to understand that Technic is a good thing despite how they feel about KakerMix or the Technic team in general. Even if they haven't decided Technic is a good thing, they understand how intensely popular it is and that it benefits them. To the point where the modders that applies to have settled on a state of "tolerance" of their mod being included. That's good enough for us for now. We've got time to change peoples minds about us and it means the end user can keep enjoying themselves without being negatively effected by personal squabbles. That's what's most important to us. From some of the comments that have been made I feel as if you do not want the mod authors to continue their work because you feel that they have too much freedom over their own work! You accuse others of forcing the Technic pack to 'Jump through hoops' when in actual fact you are forcing the mod authors to do this by stealing their work, it is no wonder Sengir rebelled. Who are you talking to in this situation? Me? The Technic team as a whole? Random user 445? Are you just taking anything negative or unhelpful any random person has said and lumping it all together into a kind of franken Technic dev? You're just generalizing and you are basing opinions on 100% assumed or selective information. Here is a quote from kaker himself about his view on the modding community as a whole, found here: http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356 " I'd rather have everyone's permission but you two are the exact reason why I have a hard time giving this community a chance, your types make it absolutely toxic to everyone. I didn't have permission in the first place and yet here we are, more legit than it started out as. " Now to me this sums up exactly how the Technic pack works, steal from the mod authors and then, when they rebel, blame it on them for not wanting their work to be stolen! However in this post he does express his desire for the permissions, it is just a shame he hasn't the morality to follow through with this desire. Finally another quote from kaker, which i think may sum up some of the people on this forum: " Our 'site' isn't about grace, tact or class ". You've gotten throughout your post, to a point where you're acting so hostile we can forget about your claims of being neutral. Anyone can click that link and see that you're trying to put that post in a different light by taking it out of context. There is not a thing wrong with that he said there. Anyone should be able to see where he's coming from. He's trying to explain his position and people in there are insulting him outright and refusing to even listen. The hostility could be cut with a knife. He's facing a giant bandwagon that refuses to stop to hear him out so it's no wonder he "has a hard time giving the community a chance". The community has had a hard time giving him a chance if at all. He's actually an incredibly patient person. Anyways, I'd like this thread to stay a productive discussion. Please leave the needless hostility behind when coming to post on my forums. I will not tolerate for long, people who do their best to frame things in negative light and "prove their point" rather then keeping an open mind. That goes for everyone in here, no matter your side. I want things to remain fair and reasonable. No lashing out or insulting. I'm going to probably personally enforce a little harder this thread from here on out to make sure people stay productive, and I am very confident that I can do so without bias so fair warning no matter what "side" you're on.
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Oh wow, a coffee post. brb putting the kettle on
Industrial Miner Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 0_o Wow, why have I missed this discussion? Anyway, happy discussing guys.
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Doh, to early on the coffee LOL. Cheap Shot, however this conversation progresses from here, I want to thank you and those that have tried to get involved in the discussion for at least having the discussion. The chances are nothing will change at the end, but well we can all hope, even if only for a short while.
Cheap Shot Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Doh, to early on the coffee LOL. Cheap Shot, however this conversation progresses from here, I want to thank you and those that have tried to get involved in the discussion for at least having the discussion. The chances are nothing will change at the end, but well we can all hope, even if only for a short while. I'm going to try to be optimistic. I'm speaking for myself here but I probably speak for everyone on the team when I say all we want is to make Minecraft more fun. Drama may be fun to some people, actually it can be fun for us sometimes too I won't lie, sometimes there's some pretty hilarious stuff. All in all though, I'd like to see an end to the ill will toward us. We're only trying to do good things and despite the trollish sense of humor of KakerMix, he and we are all very nice and reasonable people. Once Technic took off on us, we decided to make the best of a less then positive situation and fill a hole in the community. No matter how you feel about Technic, it has changed the modding community drastically for the better. Maybe I can start by discussing how Techinc got started. There seems to be some confusion. When we say that there was not point in getting permissions before the yogscast popularity boost and you call bullshit, let me explain. There literally was no reason. It wasn't a public mod pack. It wasn't even really a mod pack. The only thing that made it even close to an official modpack is all the art and branding I supplied after the sudden exposure. It started out as KakerMix deciding to combine a bunch of mods together to play. He hosted a private server and I and some other friends played on it. It was only a pack in the sense that we couldn't figure out how he'd managed to get everything working so he just did the work for us. Of course we were all members of Something Awful, and when Kaker shared how fun it was to play these mods together in a thread there, a few people asked if he could share the "pack" with them so they could play with it on their private servers as well. It was just a small community thing at that point, not even worth bothering modders over, because really, why would he? He wasn't intending to make a website and start offering it to the public. He was just helping out the people from the SA community who couldn't do it on their own. The Yogscast are part of the something awful community. YOGS literally stands for "Ye Olde Goon Squad", the World of Warcraft something awful guild. We didn't know what hit us once they featured it as a "pack". Not that we're angry at them. They're alright and without them, all the positive things we've been able to do for people wouldn't have got their start. Hell, the controversy and drama of it all is probably responsible for Technics reach and popularity more then anything if I'm to be honest. We would very much like to have had a "proper start" with permissions and working together with the modders, but it wasn't in the stars. After that, the attitude of the modders toward Technic was so venomous that Kaker threw up his hands and said "fine" and just let people hate on him. He was more interested in supplying support and building a community for the people who were enjoying Technic after the yogscast explosion. He also didn't like the way the community was, and continued on the belief that it needed to change. I agreed. Compared to other games modding communities, minecrafts was disgraceful. An unproductive, isolationist and very hostile one. There was no open forum for exchanging ideas, or working together to make something cooler and bigger and better. It just didn't exist. We operated without permissions for so long only because we never really got a chance to operate the way we wanted to, and we were interested in changing the way the community worked. Now, after all the work we've put in and a significant amount of time has passed, people have calmed down a little, and things are much better. Modders are working together more often and things like bridge mods or mods that add to others have sprung up and stitched things together. Mainly, a lot of modders are willing to listen to us, even if they don't like us. We're trying to turn over a new leaf and do things in a way that will make everyone happy instead of just the end users. You are free to make your own pack. You have just as much right to do so as anyone, especially if the modders want you to. Do understand that there are a lot more factors involved then just permissions you have to consider when putting together a modpack. As vets of the topic we're aware of just how complicated it is, and how complicated it can get. We have the infrastructure, playerbase reach, and community support that took over a year to build properly, not to mention how much money and labor was involved from all of us (a lot). Have you seen our website? It's amazing and I'm very proud of it. We'd much prefer to be given a second chance by the modders then to scrap everything that's been built and have someone else start over from scratch. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise, and as adults I think it should be more then possible. We're good people. Yes even KakerMix. I live in a different country from him, but we hang out nearly every day online. I consider him a good friend, and I'm a pretty good judge of character. His heart is way in the right place. If you can't give him a chance, hopefully I've proven myself to be a good person and reasonable, and let me vouch for him. If he was as awful as people make him out to be, there's no way I or anyone else would have devoted so much time, work and money to helping him with all this. :P
slowpoke101 Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Nice post Cheap Shot, there is certainly a lot of information about the early days of your mod that I was unaware of. I can relate to a lot of what you say about the early days and trying to get any sort of established back together I imagine would have been hard as you are essentially breaking new ground. The questions I have with regards to this still come back to this, I think everyone accepts and knows that in the early days relationships between you and the mod developers was harsh. You say that the attitude of the modders was venomous towards you, But I still do not have a clue which modders were venomous towards you. I will give an example, and I hope if he reads this he forgives me for using him as an example. I know x3n0phobe quite well within the context of Minecraft and we spoke quite a lot about things like technic. His grievance with technic was never that You used his mod without his permission. It was that he was never asked about it. Not before the yogscast featured the pack, not after the yogscast featured the pack not ever and he was not the only developer that I have heard this from. Its like the post I quoted on the IC2 forums, CovertJaguars used the very same argument, he was never even given the chance to say yes or no. Which brings us to today. You used a word earlier that I would now say accurately describes the relationship between Mod Developer and Technic. You are now for the most part tolerated by the modders, but that is as far as it goes from what I can tell. This idea though that modders are working together due to the technic packs involvement, I am not quite sure where you get that from. It is true that a lot of the modders are working closer together (At least the modders we are interested in) But if you speak to them, it is more down to the fact that they now communicate with each other a LOT more than they used to. When the Direwolf20 IRC channel opened a lot of those modders gathered in there and they still do. This opened up totally new avenues of communication for a lot of them and they use those avenues a lot. This all leads me on to my main point of contention with Technic. I am not saying that you or any of the Technic admins are making this claim. But a lot of people who purport to speak for technic certainly make the claim that Technic is completely legitimate now with actual permissions for every mod that is currently in the pack. My contention is that there is a difference between knowing you are tolerated and knowing that you produce a pack that is fully supported by the mod developers. As I said earlier, I do not feel it is to late for technic even now to resolve this. However I do feel that the step you would need to take is one that you would not be willing to take even though it would be in the best interests of both the pack and its future. This of course is Kakermix either volunteering to or being asked to step down. I do not know the man and I will take your word that he is a good guy. However no one can deny that with his attitude and the comments he made in public a lot of bridges were burnt down in the past. In order for technic to truly move forwards those bridges need to be mended. I think it is again important to note here. I am absolutely not saying that removing Kaker from the team would have any effect whatsoever. It may not make a blind bit of difference (however a couple of modders I spoke to today about this very idea commented that it wouldnt hurt) I do NOT speak for any developer though, these are purely my own thoughts and should be only taken as so. Coming off that line though, the business of making a mod pack, yeah I am quickly becoming extremely aware of what is involved. However my biggest worry right now is getting an effective launcher in place. I think I have the rest of the bases covered. We have the mods, the forums are kind of in place. We have the distribution covered with a nice high speed uplink. (10 gigabit uplink I understand) However and I keep trying to tell people this, the FTB mod pack is not being made to kill technic. That would be stupid, you have a lot more experience a huge user base and most important you have Yogscast. 1.5 million people a week watching Simon and Lewis play technic plus the hundreds of thousands more watching other youtubers and streamers do the same thing, well we are not putting a dent in that any time soon and nor do we want to. Honestly what it boils down to is the FTB launcher will let people play FTB maps in an easy way. It will let us add in third party maps that other players have made so they dont have to worry about configs. It will let people be able to download and install texture packs and know that all the mods involved are supported (because we can maintain the quality from our end) We kind of already had that, we are just using a launcher this time and vastly expanding the number of mods we use. The next logical step was to set it up so that people wernt just restricted to using the launcher for FTB maps but could use it for normal worlds to. It is good from where I sit though to at least have an open line of communication with you and I am glad that we can have this conversation in a transparent manner. I know it may be easier to do this sort of thing hidden away in PM's etc, but I much prefer to do this sort of thing out in the open for everyone to see and make their own comments and judgements.
Xylord Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Chunk O'text I'm following this thread closely, and even though I'm not participating I'm extremely interested. However, there is one part of the facts I'm not aware of, the apparently terrible attitude Kaker has had in the past, that had the consequence to "burn a lot of bridges" between him and the modders. Could you please quote some examples of those venomous statements he's made? I haven't seen anything in this thread that doesn't make him a nice, and very patient guy. Thanks.
slowpoke101 Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Hey Xylord, it was quoted in my OP that was copied here. http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356 Post numbers 62 and 65 are prime examples. Post number 62 is Kaker very clearly giving the impression that he is to use his words Nobody knows that we are friends with Eloraam, or that Ablaka was the first to give us permission, or that Xenophobe has always been thankful for us, or that Technic and the Yogscast is directly responsible for Thaumcraft being created. and yet 3 posts later after being called out by CovertJaguar from Railcraft, his attitude has changed to We don't ask permission, we still don't. The permission has been given to us through various means, usually after people find out that we aren't assholes and that we truly and honestly love the mods and appreciate the creators. The reason we don't bother saying anything about it (usually) is because we don't want to cause drama between the modders themselves if we can help it. This is the kind of thing I really have an issue with. That first quote, OK I am not going to claim to speak to any of these people. But people can either accept what I say as truth or not when I say that that first quote to the best of my knowledge is complete fiction and even if it was true that would make the second quote even worse becuase it effectively says that Kakermix is using the mods of his 'friends' without even bothering to ask them first. Or maybe he is saying that he uses there work and they later became friends. Really do I actually need to ask anyone if that sounds remotely plausible? Also this excuse that they dont say anything about it 'because we don't want to cause drama between the modders themselves if we can help it.' People actually accept that line as the truth and don't even question how ridiculous that sounds. Kaker isn't the devil I am sure. I also am happy to believe that he came into this with the best intentions. But right now his presence may be doing more harm that good. Ask yourself IF this is the case, which is more important Kakermix or Technicpack. Again I only make a suggestion, for all I know it wont make a blind bit of difference and Technic are happy and destined to a life of tolerance and never outright genuine acceptance and quite possibly everyone is happy with that.
Jay? Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 This may be the only other time that i chime in, but here goes anyway: The bit about not wanting to cause drama between modders actually makes a lot of sense to me, considering the attitude that many modders as well as regular users have, wherein anyone who works with, for, or in cooperation with technic is instantly branded as being evil and/or terminally dense. Whether or not any of the involved modders ACTUALLY care about that is unknown, but the percieved threat of negative reaction from the community is a real concern.
Xylord Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Hey Xylord, it was quoted in my OP that was copied here. http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356 Post numbers 62 and 65 are prime examples. Post number 62 is Kaker very clearly giving the impression that he is to use his words and yet 3 posts later after being called out by CovertJaguar from Railcraft, his attitude has changed to This is the kind of thing I really have an issue with. That first quote, OK I am not going to claim to speak to any of these people. But people can either accept what I say as truth or not when I say that that first quote to the best of my knowledge is complete fiction and even if it was true that would make the second quote even worse becuase it effectively says that Kakermix is using the mods of his 'friends' without even bothering to ask them first. Or maybe he is saying that he uses there work and they later became friends. Really do I actually need to ask anyone if that sounds remotely plausible? Also this excuse that they dont say anything about it 'because we don't want to cause drama between the modders themselves if we can help it.' People actually accept that line as the truth and don't even question how ridiculous that sounds. Kaker isn't the devil I am sure. I also am happy to believe that he came into this with the best intentions. But right now his presence may be doing more harm that good. Ask yourself IF this is the case, which is more important Kakermix or Technicpack. Again I only make a suggestion, for all I know it wont make a blind bit of difference and Technic are happy and destined to a life of tolerance and never outright genuine acceptance and quite possibly everyone is happy with that. As I said, I have been following this thread, and I did see those two posts. Whether they're complete fiction or not, this is not for me to judge, as I don't have any contact with the modders, and as you said, you aren't sure about this either. What I know for a fact though, is that about one year passed since those two posts, (posts that, in my opinion, aren't even particularly offensive toward the modders, but that's an opinion) and that they're the only ones you've brought up. I hardly see how posts Kaker made a year ago could justify his stepping down now. Kaker is the reason we can enjoy the Technic pack, and he is incredibly generous to use his own free time and pocket money, without asking anything in return. Imagine (It's a completely fictive situation) RP got a team of modders working on it, with Eloraam leading, and the fans and the team asked her to step down because they didn't think she was useful anymore. It comes to me as incredibly ungrateful. Aren't there any other posts, more inflammable posts from Kaker that you could quote? If not, I will personally consider this specific suggestion void.
Killer-of-Lawyers Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Out of curiosity, if the launcher is the hardest part, why don't you use technics? It's got it's code available after all. I have to say, I'm wishy washy about this subject now. I want to thank Slowpoke101 for, while being a little insulting at times (Which I'm not going to blame him for. I'm insulting all the time.) for taking the time to have this discussion. I'd also like to thank Cheapshot for being open about things on his end. I guess I'm torn between wanting whatever works out the best for the end user, and the fact that I do kind of have a chip on my shoulder with some of the modders and the comunity they foster. It really all comes down to copywrite. It's like a terrible Rand novel. The modders act like their copywrite on a mod they made for another game is tauntamount, and they're going to run off from the comunity that leaches from their greatness (After a 200 page speech by John Galt.). This personally rubs me the wrong way. People are important. End users, consumers, all of our systems, even copy write, should be done with them in mind. I can understand this a bit in the sense of a business protecting the software it's made, but modding is the modification of already copywrited code. It's not personal work to start with. The modders do make an effort, and they get credit for that, but the infrastructure the mods are made on is not their own. In my ideal world, this would be done in an open source manner. After all, with out the ease of decompiling that java provides none of this would be possible. In saying this, I can freely admit that a lot of my problems stem from a deep set political anger, and it is probably not healthy that I've been directing this at the community or the modders. So I apologize for all the times I've reveled in the pissed off mod makers in the past. Cheepshot and Slowpoke having a civil discusion about this is way better than the vitrol. I ask that other people out here that are reading this give them a chance to talk things out. I want to see where this goes.
slowpoke101 Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Public posts, no but then I have not followed this that closely if I am totally honest. The vast majority of the information I have is third party. The only reason I give that information credence though is the identities of those third parties. It is all from the developers and this leads to my bias towards them. I totally understand that I have a severe bias toward their point of view, after all I speak to them on a regular basis. X3n0 and I and a couple of others spent quite a bit of time talking about this subject. I spoke to Azanor in the last couple of days with regards to the idea that Technic 'inspired' Thaumcraft, suffice to say his recollection of events differs somewhat to that opinion and I also have close ties to Eloraam and again I do not wish to speak for her, but I can say this apparent friendship between Kaker and Eloraam, well I certainly have seen no evidence of that. So Jay, honestly but if you believe that any of the modders refuse to publicly endorse Technic because of some perceived possible backlash from the community, take my word for it or not but I have seen absolutely nothing to support that claim, in fact the opposite is true. It wasnt that long ago Pahimar and other Mod Developers started discussions with Cheap Shot with regards to this very thing, they did not seem to fear a backlash then. I was talkingback then to Pah about this very thing, people may not want to believe it, we actually were willing to help out. Perhaps things have gone to far now, its not like I am posting here in secret, of course people have seen what I am writing hell I made sure I informed them myself. Most of them just plain dont care anymore, it might just be a case of we tried, we failed, move on and try something different. Can I also just say that my original post was not aimed to stir up a hornets nest. It was intended as nothing more than just a place that I could point people to to give my views on this debate when they ask me why no FTB for technic pack etc. There was a time I got far to heated about a subject that was really none of my business at the end of the day. This has given me a place so in future I can just say go here, these are my views, if you want to question them , thats the place to do it.
slowpoke101 Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Thank you Killer, that post right there has proven that my day has not been wasted.
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Cheap Shot Posted August 26, 2012 Posted August 26, 2012 Woosh, we're giving people a novel to read between the two of us haha. It's for sure easier to get to know someone when you're talking in a more personal setting like IRC. We're a fan of Google+ hangouts too since you get peoples tones and things when you can hear voices. For sure having a transparent convo in public can be good too though. Not often, but somtimes! It gives people something to point at. Dispite this being the Technic forums, this is really the only place we can actually do so though crazy as that sounds. As for Kaker stepping down, that just can't happen and I wouldn't ever want it to. Kaker has put more work into Technic then any reasonable human should be expected to. A year of his personal time, not to mention quite a bit of his own money paying for the majority of all the ever increasing expenses of maintaining Technic. He's responsible for bringing a lot of people together and manages everything we do behind the scenes. It would be completely unresonable to ask him to "step down" from the team he started and shaped through all this for no real reason other then some people who don't really know him don't like him. It would be a lot more resonable just to get to know him. Ironic that I'm the only one home right now though. If the FTB pack isn't meant to be a competitor, then it seems pointlessly redundant when you consider what already exists. Even if you don't like Kaker, there are four other people on the Technic team now and we're all great people. I'd love to get to know the modders better and try to improve relations. An example reason for not wanting to put up a big list of permissions is for one, like you said, some of the modders aren't happy about giving them. If they're only giving us permission begrudgingly, we don't want to throw it back in their faces like big jerks. It's not worth risking upsetting any of them just for the sake of appeasing a few people. Needing proof of permissions is a purely MCForums thing and unless all the modders are on better terms with us I dont personally (me) think there would be any worth in putting that list together. I think an even more productive thing would be to talk to the modders and try and get to know them better. Get on better terms. Like I said, there are four other people involved other then Kaker, and it would be cool if we were given a chance if no one is willing to give Kaker a second one. I'd personally challenge anyone to go out and look for an instance where I'm an unreasonable asshole anywhere. The reward for finding such a post would be a hand drawn avatar and one night of passion. Anyways, you yourself are on good terms with most of the modders who think negatively about us. You seem like a nice guy and pretty resonable. There's no reason we can't make a start of improving things, and it'd save you a lot of work. I'd like to see a senario where we're on much better terms with the modders and we can work with them. There's no reason beyond old grudges not to. It would be the best thing for the community as a whole instead of having things divided. You're on good terms with a lot of the modders so if you would be willing, it would be a lot easier with your help. I can't speak for the rest right now, I'm totally rogue right now!!!, but I'd apprecaite it quite a bit.
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