Slowpoke (Feed the Beast creator) on the Technic pack

[Deimos56]

A permissions thread certainly couldn't hurt, I guess. If nothing else, the developers of the mods would appreciate it. And it would... lessen the amount of people who encourage the opinion that Technic consists entirely of thieves and bandits that are trying to burn modders at the stake or whatever the popular opinion is these days.

It's up to the devs, though, in the end.

[jakj]

Calm down. CheapShot is waiting for KakerMix to come back and make the final decision. The world is not going to crumble around us in the mean time.

[spartanyanni]

That happens in these kinds of situations. Don't jinx it.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

This is something that can't be rushed. If it collapses while the technic team is trying to get together to discuss things, then it won't because of the delay.

[charcharmunro]

So, while we're all waiting, anybody mind if I share a little thing that, while not contributing to the discussion currently at hand, may provide some content? Okay, good.

As an end user of the Technic Pack, I have to say I never got into playing Minecraft with mods before that simply because I was (and still am) a lazy arse, and I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to mod stuff myself. After doing stuff in the Technic Pack, thanks to the ease-of-use of the Technic Launcher, I started branching out to trying to install other modpacks that weren't so easy to install. So, bottom-line, Technic Launcher worked as a bridge from vanilla Minecraft to heavily-modded Minecraft.

[Narcisism]

I'll admit that I started reading this thread with a great deal of bias against Technic, but after reading, I'm able to take a step back and give my two cents without resorting to "BLAR BLAR TECHNIC IS ILLEGAL Y U USE IT BLAH"

So here goes:

(DISCLAIMER: Everything beyond this is either my opinion, or something I believe to be fact, but may be wrong on. I'm not infallible. I can certainly misunderstand something.)

I started with Tekkit. Tekkit was my first experience with modded Minecraft, simply because I am lazy. I eventually moved away from Tekkit when I learned that it wasn't completely up-to-date, and when I wanted to start playing with the mods Direwolf20 uses, and only then did I start hearing this business about Technic being illegal.

I jumped on the bandwagon, but left a foot hanging off at first. It was only after I scrounged around looking for evidence that I decided that yes, Technic is illegal in the sense that it violates the copyrights that the mod developers put on it. No matter what good Technic does, the end result is still illegal. If you go rob a bank, you still stole money, even if you use that money to fund an orphanage later. This is how I see it, at least.

However, it is only illegal because they don't have the permissions for the mods, and I truly think that if the makers had bothered to ask, they would have gotten a "Yeah, go for it!" And that is what they should have done, but didn't. THAT is the big issue. Asking. The mod devs put a ton of work into their mods, and they would like to know how they are being used. That is the full extent of the big issue.

I really do value Technic. Technic is the reason I got into playing modded Minecraft, which itself led to my current project: Learning to mod Minecraft, so I can do all these cool things too. So if I eventually make something cool, Technic will ultimately be the reason. And it is for all that, that I would LOVE to see Technic get permissions. But for that to happen they'll have to ask for them. I have nothing against Technic itself, but for a while I had everything against its dev team. Reading this thread, and watching Cheap Shot react, discuss, and respond with the level of maturity s/he did has led me to be quite a bit more relaxed about the whole deal. And this maturity is why I would suggest you put Kake behind the scenes a bit more. I wouldn't ask him to step down; he likely does a lot of valuable work. But I would suggest that he NOT be the one to go around requesting permissions for mods at this point. He has already stated that he personally is not interested in permissions, and that will just cause trouble. I'd suggest either Cheap Shot (for the aforementioned maturity) or any other dev who displays similar maturity levels be the one to ask for permissions.

Like I said, I'd love to see the Technic hate end, but I'd want it to be for good reason. I agree that a permissions thread would be a great place to start. If they all say "No," ask them if they would be willing to let you continue using the old versions for old version of Minecraft. As someone said (I don't remember who), Technic users stuck with Minecraft 1.1 for a LONG time. They could deal with using 1.2.5 if they had to. If some say no and others say "Sure! Go for it! Thanks for asking!" at least you got the respect points for bothering to ask. At this point, Technic's biggest obstacle is its shit reputation among people who may or may not know what they're talking about.

It'd be nice to see that obstacle removed. It would certainly make me happy to see that the mod pack that got me started is finally able to go (mostly) without troubles.

Well, there we go. My long-winded view of things. Good luck, Technic. Hope things work out for the best.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

Not a fan of Locksley, are you Narcisism? As far as the illegality goes, it's going to always be a point of contention due to the nature of derivative copy write law. Never mind the fact that people asking to be asked for permission to use their GNU3 licensed work violates the GNU3 license.

I think talking about the respect to the authors is a much more reasonable thing to discuss than the illegality.

[Air_Gamer]

Narcisim, as far as analogies go, that isn't the best one; you're equating data that can be replicated without harm to the developer, to something which cannot be replaced easily. The illegality of the issue is also on suppository shaky ground, from CovertJaguars post, it seems an issue of respect rather then those of legality.

It's nice to see that you this thread has improved your views on the Technic, you also get to see both sides of the story presented maturely in one place.

This thread may be a milestone event in improving relationship with modders and ridding Technic of its outstanding issues, we will have to see how the Technic team acts.

[Blacktooth]

Put a public permissions post together, like slowpoke did. Reach out to all the developers, personally, 1 on 1

I think this is ok, but I do think considering the climate it should be initially closed or at the very least readonly/private for all but those that are personally involved. This thread is testament to that I think. Once the discussion/posting is done, then post the results or open it for public reading. Keep the noise down for the important part of the discourse, and a lot more can come of it.

There is a great deal of misinformation, vitriol, and a huge clash of cultures going on. It is an unneeded and unproductive schism that while it may never be brought together fully there could at least be some sort of coexistence without the constant jabs.

Technic wold not exist without the mod authors, and I would like to think that the mod authors can see the benefits of Technic (exposure, tech support, and a centralized entry to modding).

[Cheap Shot]

That's fine but from here on out we will not be discussing "legality" in here. That is completely pointless and will just turn into an unintelligent dramafest with no possible resolution. This is not a courtroom. We'll stick to the issues at hand otherwise it'll get ugly and everyone will be mildly stupider for having taken part.

No more analogies either please.

That being said, I'm not angry, just trying to head off a negative derail. Carry on.

[spartanyanni]

Noticed sct is on, I hope he will take notice.

[NuclearStudent]

Hurray! A voice of reason.

[Jorcer]

I have been following this from the sidelines and would simply like to thank Cheap Shot, Slowpoke and the various other modders and Techinc devs for their level headed discussion. Too often threads like this get deleted, flamed or other wise derail into a flurry of insults. The restraint and tact that has been displayed by both sides has been wonderful to see. I will refrain from voicing my opinions as they will simply echo many that have already been posted, I just wanted to say that what is happening here (in my opinion) can only help the situation of both the pack and the relationship between Modders and the Technic team.

[Munaus]

You realize what you have done, slowpoke? You just started a fire in here. A wind of change is blowing in the halls of Technic.

Should this be announced to the local and worldwide media? A press conference perhaps?

Should we notify the other minecraft-related forums about this?

What was it, two weeks til Kaker comes home?

Oh my, the entire forums must be holding their breath. Biting their nails and nervously walking back-and-forth impatiently...

I feel a bit sorry for Cheap, standing all alone in the playground and the entire Technic audience (and modders) staring at him, hanging on his every word...

Then again, like was mentioned before, the "worst" outcome of this would be that nothing changes and Technic continues as if nothing has happened.

[Blacktooth]

You realize what you have done, slowpoke? You just started a fire in here. A wind of change is blowing in the halls of Technic.

Should this be announced to the local and worldwide media? A press conference perhaps?

Should we notify the other minecraft-related forums about this?

What was it, two weeks til Kaker comes home?

Oh my, the entire forums must be holding their breath. Biting their nails and nervously walking back-and-forth impatiently...

I feel a bit sorry for Cheap, standing all alone in the playground and the entire Technic audience (and modders) staring at him, hanging on his every word...

Then again, like was mentioned before, the "worst" outcome of this would be that nothing changes and Technic continues as if nothing has happened.

Now now. Don't get carried away. There is a lot of hatred out there, warranted or not (my opinion: not). It has inertia, and is not likely to die out so easily. If egos are not checked with hats at the door, nothing will change. I'm not certain the MC modding community can handle the irreverent and self deprecating sense of humor that the core and the extended "family" surrounding Technic are used to. It is often interpreted as a lack of respect. The differences are most notable in the most prominent Youtube channels. One tends to be dry, technical, and overachieving. The other is goofy, fumbling, and artistic. If these discussions take place, and each side can take their differences into account (serious vs nothing sacred)...idk. We'll see. It still won't stop those on the periphery from lighting themselves on fire and running into traffic at the mention of the silly block game drama.

[mogymog]

For fucks sake, Cheap, you must have the patients of a Saint. I have to put up with this constant Technic hate on every part of IRC I visit, yet you have to deal with it all the time on here and who knows where else, and yet you somehow haven't gone off on a homicidal rampage yet despite having to put up with it for untold months. If anyone deserves sainthood, you and Kaker do.. And I won't even talk about my views on TP or FTB, or any of the so called hurt feelings of egotism, cause honestly I don't give a damn, and never will. Kudos man, kudos.

[dragonshardz]

I'd also like to join the chorus of people commending both the Technic dev team and the mod developers for keeping things civil and levelheaded.

[SPGold]

To any of the reasonable people against technic/tekkit I'm sure that you might not knowthat technic was meant for private use only so they didn't need permission but it all blasted of into orbit by the yogscast and the technic team didn't know what hit them and people like direwolf, sengir and loads of others didn't realise and almost instantly started hating technic. (if this doesn't help and adds a lot more fuel to the fire I'm really sorry I always try to do the opposite but if you knew me it would always go wrong)

[slowpoke101]

It doesnt add any fuel to the fire tbh. This was explained by cheapshot a couple of days ago. Right now this post is kind of on hold until Kakermix returns and decisions made as to how the Technic admin team want to proceed.

[Lothos]

Omg, I made it tot he end of the thread. about 5 hours reading here and IC forums. I have come to basically 2 things that are still the burning embers of this situation.

1. permissions. I find it somewhat humorous that it is still a hotly debated issue. Past, present, and future. If I for example were to make a private server for friends and I packed a bunch of mods we liked into it I wouldn't need to ask first either. The simple explosion as a result of yogscast "looking through the window" happened, whats done is done. Now, as a result of THAT explosion people always quote the 2 posts of kaker's like slowpoke did which I believe were made at a time when yes in fact it was created for a private server. Nobody seems to take that into account and think about it. They simply rage that forever is the attitude moving forward from a year ago. This of course brewed in the internet stew and probably led to all the IC forum hate, the forestry debacle, and FC and his forge diatribe.

Now, this of course led to the whole FTB pack's drive to get permissions, the drive to have the masses with pitchforks at technic's gate demanding for a permissions thread. And ad infinitum. All of which really is unnecessary and hurtful to the spirit of modding. As I said in irc, this is akin to asking a hot babe for her last aids test results before having sex with her. Expect to get a slap in the face. If you're not a modder, stop asking to see them. If you're a modder and don't want your mod in any particular pack. Ask them to remove it.

Now, this of course moves into the second burning ember.

2. respect. I have myself been a programmer and creator of things in the past for other types of stuff. I know the work involved and how recognition can come and not come. A mod made for a game whether open or closed source that gets used alot is a sign of respect by the public at large to the mod author. Can we agree there? By extension a mod that is then compiled within a modpack unmodified and redistributed to the masses and masses is further respect. However, modification of a mod for use within a modpack without expressly contacting the author first is disrespect. It's borderline theft. If I were making a modpack and decided to grab some mods to use in it without changing them, my lack of going to them first and asking permission to do so or even saying "hi, i'm using your mod for this" is not disrespectful. Yeah, it doesn't foster a relationship for future growth in the end either.

I see so many bruised ego's out there.

[SimpleGuy]

Thanks to college classes I've mostly missed the meat of this discussion, but in skimming this eloquent thread there is one thing that was said that bothers me that I'd like to point out:

Our community is not a "f*ck you" community. This is perceived, I believe, due to the rough way we handle people who choose not to abide by the forums' rules. The community itself is amazingly more positive than most other online anonymous communities. However, there is a low tolerance for people that want to poison it. This decision had to be made, in part when I became the first mod back in January, because I recognized the time of the people involved with the Technic pack itself and the future people that would become mods are all doing it for free on their own time. We don't have the luxury of sitting around discussing what the deeper philosophical meaning of "don't be a dickbag" rule is, nor what the "just" punishment is in a hypothetical situation, nor what a "good" community is. I helped choose to cut out some ideals when the stark realities of an online community came to bear, and the decision to be "less than gentle" with people who purposefully insult, demean, or attempt to undermine this community for the purpose of discouraging future similar behavior was one of them. I didn't have time to constantly push back the horde, and needed a way to curb it.

To keep my thoughts brief: these 10 pages of discussion contain more level-headed debate than I have seen on the 'net in a long long time, so we must be doing something right to not be a "traditional online community" where we bash the minority opinion. If people don't like this community, don't join it. That simple.

This isn't me justifying myself, this is me correcting a misconception of us.

[Torezu]

Our community is not a "f*ck you" community. This is perceived, I believe, due to the rough way we handle people who choose not to abide by the forums' rules. The community itself is amazingly more positive than most other online anonymous communities. However, there is a low tolerance for people that want to poison it. This decision had to be made, in part when I became the first mod back in January, because I recognized the time of the people involved with the Technic pack itself and the future people that would become mods are all doing it for free on their own time. We don't have the luxury of sitting around discussing what the deeper philosophical meaning of "don't be a dickbag" rule is, nor what the "just" punishment is in a hypothetical situation, nor what a "good" community is. I helped choose to cut out some ideals when the stark realities of an online community came to bear, and the decision to be "less than gentle" with people who purposefully insult, demean, or attempt to undermine this community for the purpose of discouraging future similar behavior was one of them. I didn't have time to constantly push back the horde, and needed a way to curb it.

Quoted the entire paragraph, since I couldn't find anything meaningless in it to remove. As the latest mod, I share the same opinion, and the points SimpleGuy is making are well-spoken, particularly the bolded parts.

[Lothos]

Well, since Torezu did it first Kudo's Simpleguy, superb post. I really think that's why I've stayed on this forum rather than any of the others i've trolled or simply not posted in. And in an effort not to totally derail...

When i first saw that banner/ad for FTB's pack I was honestly a bit ticked towards its creator ( not knowing who it was ) for the dig at technic on it. And frankly, when I started reading this thread ( before coffee ) this morning I was equally pissed at slowpoke and even to the extent to throw him in the fanboi IC pile of hate I had come to read elsewhere. 6 hours later though I'm not so much mad, albeit in disagreement on items. It is simply a result of the attitude of moderation here that this is solely possible. Kudo's to the mods here really. I honestly think the stance is rubbing off on the members and it frankly leads to more open civil discussions.

[slowpoke101]

Cheapshot, if you read this dont worry about it. I just enjoy picking holes in posts. It helps to pass the time.

Soooo Lothos.

1 permissions

Now, as a result of THAT explosion people always quote the 2 posts of kaker's like slowpoke did which I believe were made at a time when yes in fact it was created for a private server.

Yeah maybe do a little fact checking before you go around posting anywhere eh? Your like a republican candidate, just invent facts to fit your distorted world.

Thats what I did, not really having any background knowledge of when technic became famous/went public etc. I went and checked very quicky. A 2 minute search of the internet led me to

https://yogscast.com/showthread.php?35909-Technic-now-has-its-own-website-technicpack-net

A cursory look at the dates, show us that the technic forums went live on or around the 8th Nov 2011. So the technic pack was being distributed outside of the Something Aweful Forums at that point at least. For them to have built a website, I can only assume at this point they had a least a few people outside of the private circles using the pack.

So lets take another quick look at that post on the IC2 forums.

http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356

The IC2 posts appear to be dated late December, so at the very least a full month after they took the pack public (and probably a bit longer.) In other words technic was not the private little mod pack any more when those comments were made.

Moving on, I have no idea where your information comes from. But FTB's drive to get permissions had absolutely nothing to do with technic, tekkit, or any other mod pack and everything to do with the fact that pretty much every mod that was used in the original FTB was developed by a mod developer that was logging in daily to the direwolf20 IRC channel where I happened to be an admin. In other words I had no choice really. Funnily enough the original maps didnt come with a mod pack, but more of a config pack kind of like the way Direwolf20 did it. The mod pack came later and even then it was only really designed to be used in conjunction with the FTB map.

Moving on to your comments about respect. You are completely entitled to your opinion on what is or is not showing respect. However until you have written a mod and that mod has been used in a mod pack without your consent, then it really has no bearing on this thread now does it.

Moving onto SimpleGuy

This forum and more importantly this thread actually surprised me (oh and much more importantly not just me) Through the course of 10 pages, I could actually feel the shift in attitudes, it was only a slight movement, but it was certainly perceptible. Especially from the moment Cheap Shot stepped into the mix and got involved. I have no idea if this thread will end up going anywhere. I have to say right now if I am completely honest about it, my money would be on it will die with this thread. The things technic are being asked to do carry some risk and certainly mean the pack would be weakened before it got stronger. However I have been wrong in the past and I truely hope I am going to be wrong here. I wouldnt say I have had universal support for what I have written in this thread from devs. But I certainly havent had anyone come and flat out say no, never going to happen either.

As a final note to Lothos, I saw that comment you made about an imagined dig aimed at Technic. Sorry, yet again it had absolutely nothing to do with Technic and everything to do with peoples perceptions of modpacks. However you may or may not have noticed but that line you didnt like was removed shortly after you made that comment. Just because I recognised at the time that it MAY have been perceived incorrectly.

[Jay?]

This forum and more importantly this thread actually surprised me (oh and much more importantly not just me)

I'm a little confused about why you were so surprised. A few months back when some guy was making and distributing "FTB+" here, you guys (i'm not sure if it was you personally, but it was definitely multiple people from the FTB team) came in and asked for it to be removed.Everything was handled nice and respectfully then too.

I remember this quite clearly because I'm the one who did the removing. So it isn't as if the concept that we're a relatively rational and reasonable bunch of people is new information.