xxmikegigsxx Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Can we see your list of permissions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perpetualgamer Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Can we see your list of permissions? http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1233642-ftb-mod-pack-permissions-thread/ Please, don't be ignorant, add to the conversation. How do you plan to change the community if you can't debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonespecial1 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 and thats exactly why i dislike you. you care nothing for you'r users just like you said kakermix did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmikegigsxx Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1233642-ftb-mod-pack-permissions-thread/ Please, don't be ignorant, add to the conversation. How do you plan to change the community if you can't debate. I wasn't trying to debate I was simply looking for a list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerx09 Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think I'll just wait for Kake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danidas Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Because rightly or wrongly. Some developers believe they should have the ability to control the distribution of the mods they take many many hours to develop. I have no idea what purpose that serves, but I would hazard a guess that it is to protect the end user. I cannot say I have closely followed technic packs policies, so correct me if I am wrong. But I am given to understand that the updates are not what one would call regular. This might be a problem for developers in that they may believe that the end user is not getting the quality they deserve. There are other issues, but these are not necessarily Technics fault, such as Technic users going to individual mod threads for tech support rather than coming here. But that is all kind of besides the point legal or not. When a mod developer puts on their thread that they would like to be notified or asked before including a mod in a pack. Then take the couple of minutes to write a PM and ask. Here is a quote from IC2 dev: I personally prefer picking those who are permitted to boost their popularity by using IC² in their modpack. As well, I (ab)use the permission-giving to ensure all IC²-modpacks are "forced" to have RP in as well. ("forced", because so far there was only a single modpack request which was about a modpack not containing RP. Which got added upon my request) To me forcing mod pacts to contain a mod that is unrelated to your own one just to get permission seams wrong. Also their is the valid argument that copyrighting and enforcing the need for permission is good for preventing people from stealing your mod and hard work as their own. But preventing your users from enjoying your mod in a easy to use format Is a little hard to justify. As I mentioned in my last post technic was not released in a nice controlled manner like your mod pack and many others. So getting permissions as well as appeasing any requirements that the mod authors may have was out of the question. As for updating, the technic devs tend to do a really good job with keeping all the mods up to date in the pack. With the only real issues being caused by the transition periods between one minecraft version to another. When only some of the mods are updated and we have to wait for the rest to update, which is something you will need to deal with your pack. The other issues are mainly with the rare chance that updating a mod may cause issues with another mod or a users world. Which in those cases they normally test them in dev builds that are publicly available with in the technic launcher. Lastly in my experience they tend to avoid releasing a update for the sake of updating just one mod unless it is to fix a major issue. Now for users going to the modders for help that is something that we try to avoid around here as we know how frustrating it can be. Grant it our forums can be a bit hostile at times but as long you post in a intelligent manor and with in our rules their is nothing to fear. Which may be a turn off to some but it is just our way to keep things nice and tightly. If you look around a bit we offer quite a lot of support for the many mods in the pack and have a lot of really talented members that are ready and willing to lend a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerx09 Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 I personally prefer picking those who are permitted to boost their popularity by using IC² in their modpack. As well, I (ab)use the permission-giving to ensure all IC²-modpacks are "forced" to have RP in as well. ("forced", because so far there was only a single modpack request which was about a modpack not containing RP. Which got added upon my request) Dude, have you ever tried making cooling cells, or any other component in a nuclear reactor? Those things are a pain to make if you need to remove them out one by one. I'm actually happy that RP is packaged with IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psicraft Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 If anyone has anything valid to say I welcome it. You get to decide what's valid? Oh dear. I think you've missed the point of discussion with your ad hominem response. Please stop acting like a troll - that being: Stating your opinions, then insulting anyone that has an opposing opinion. Here's my equally worthless opinion: Closed source is a disservice to the entire community, and any modder that has engaged in it is therefore a stupid elitist. How am I supposed to fix someone else's bugs if they don't allow me to contribute to their code base? Contrast the bukkit plugin community. Just as many hours of work, but almost every plugin is open source. A lot more rides on the quality of those plugins than some throw-away client side mod that's incompatible with twenty others. The client side modders should be trying to live up to that brilliant standard of a community instead of hiding in their caves like Gollum with the One Ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Oh cool, a decent post from danidas. But first a correction. Noonespecial1, I apologise I re-read my comment and realise I have made an error in not making my point clear. When I say you are irrelevant, I mean it in the context of this conversation because you add nothing to it. As an end user, we are all striving to make the game more entertaining for people like yourself and in that context you are extremely relevant. I want to make something clear, I do care about end users, I just dont put them any higher or any lower in priority as the Mod Developer. This pack that I am making, just like the technic pack doesnt benefit the Admins of technic, The FTB pack does not benefit me in any way. We all do this for the same reason, we just differ in the manner we go about it. So danidas To me forcing mod pacts to contain a mod that is unrelated to your own one just to get permission seams wrong. Also their is the valid argument that copyrighting and enforcing the need for permission is good for preventing people from stealing your mod and hard work as their own. But preventing your users from enjoying your mod in a easy to use format Is a little hard to justify. As I mentioned in my last post technic was not released in a nice controlled manner like your mod pack and many others. So getting permissions as well as appeasing any requirements that the mod authors may have was out of the question. 2 quick things to note. Whilst this idea of a mod auther forcing conditions on a mod pack before consent is given may seem wrong, is that not the developers call to make, after all they are the people making the mod. We may disagree with decisions that developers make, hell I know I have disagreed with quite a few. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt respect their right to make those decisions based upon the fact they own the mods. As for technic updating regular, thats awesome. Like I said I have never tracked the updates of technic, but if they do keep on top of the major mod updates and bring them out in a timely manner then cool. and finally, I know you guys cannot be held responsible for other technic users going to the threads of developers, but in the instance of tech support, I would suggest a bit more than the normal leeway. Remember you are building this pack for people who are not tech inclined. So they may not measure up to the usual standards and we all know forums can be a ruthless place. Psicraft, this may come as a shock, but I agree with you. In a perfect world all mods would be open source, and this would be a totally unneeded conversation. However this is not a perfect world and not all mods are open source. We dont need to agree with the decision to respect the decision though. I can say as a side topic for at least one of the mods there is an extremely valid reason for it being closed source. As to me deciding what is and isn't valid. I am trying my best to answer anything that appears to be constructive. If I have missed something out, please point this out and I will do my best to address it. Please note, I am here, in your playground playing by your rules. I am not the type of person to just back down from a debate. But again I say I am not totally closed minded. Its like perpetual earlier, claiming that Kaker cares about the end-user more than the most of the devs because Sengir added in a bit of code which caused trouble for Technic users. Code which shortly after was deactivated by the way. The point however, Sengir is not most of the developers. Is there a single other piece of code in any other mod that attacks the end users? No, so that line doesnt really work now does it. Maybe you should have wrote Kaker (who has a history of not giving a care in the world about developers) cares more about the end user than Sengir (because he put in a bit of code that had his mod removed from the technic download.) You do understand there is nothing to stop you manually adding Forestry into Technic now right. Perpetual your right it is your playground, you play how you want. More power to you, as long as you dont claim legitamacy for what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Gamer Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 ... Sengit... Is that intentional, made me smile anyway. Edit: Seems you've corrected it. What developers have you spoken to about Technic and it's permissions (a response from both you and the Technic devs would be appreciated) as the difference between slowpoke's and technic's claims suggest they are talking to different members the modding community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psicraft Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Hmm, see you say this as if it's just a matter of respect. However, I am (and possibly others are?) of the opinion that any developer that keeps their free mod based on Minecraft as closed source is disrespecting us. Thus, this debate cannot end because there is no way to resolve this in any binding manner. Edit: Oh and please don't make me laugh by implying that 'secret mod functionality' is a valid reason. Java is so easily decompiled, and the only people that will understand open source are the same people that will understand decompiled source. What do you think we have been doing to Minecraft all this time? (E: clarity) Decompiling, extending and otherwise modifying Minecraft's closed source, then they have the temerity to keep their own code closed source? This is the worst hypocrisy, and I believe these people deserve no respect whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Yeah not intentional and edited . As to what developers, I dont speak to every developer in the pack regularly, but certainly the vast majority of them are people I talk to on a regular basis. This is only because we play on the same servers, we are in the same IRC rooms and a lot of them use the Teamspeak server I run. Psicraft really? where does this sense of entitlement come from. How is a mod developer disrespecting anyone by keeping a mod closed source. As an end user it shouldnt make any difference if a mod is closed source or open source. Hell most end users probably wouldnt know the difference. I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention secret mod functionality. If you are talking about the legit reason for a mod to be closed source. The the reason has nothing to do with that. It is just not something that it is not my place to say. Oh and yes there is a way to resolve this. Actually there are 2 ways. Way number 1, technic stays as it is, nothing changes. Way number 2 Technic goes legit publicly and this whole discussion is ended. I don't mean to sound elitist, the impression I get is that most people here just don't care about permissions, you feel you are entitled to have someone take all the mods and put them into an easy to use mod pack. Thats cool, my comments are not aimed at you. My comments are aimed at those that claim that Technic is a legit mod pack that is distributed with the full support of all the relevant mod developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzioA Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The most the mod developers can do is implant some kind of virusy code into their "mods" and release that. But that's illegal, I think (Correct me if I'm wrong). They also cry like huge babies. Cry all day, all night. Rally up their supporters and go to kake's doorway and protest there. Flowerchild is one of the most perfect examples (An excerpt from his forums - "Just an FYI. Flowerchild has a blanket permaban policy for any supporter of Technic/Tekkit.", or even the way that FC has gone into their brains: "Yes, I even played the Technic Pack. Shameful, I know. ") and by far, the most arrogant ass I have ever seen. To have a giant ego is one thing, but to make your mod incompatible with everything, and be proud of it, is fucking maddening. TL;DR Read the damn post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andromeida Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 As someone who has used technic for a long period of time, as well as being in the FTB community, I would like put forward my views. If you read the full discussion on this thread as a neutral bystander you see that there is a definite feel that the technic community has a single view and are not willing to even accept another persons' view. From where this 'community spirit' has come from I do not know, be it Kaker and his preaching or just the community as a whole, but what I do see is that Slowpoke has accepted and responded to the views of the other members in a controlled and thought out manner, something it seems the technic community is (mostly) uncapable of. As a programmer myself, I feel that the view mod makers should have no control over their own hard work is proposterous. This view is only promoted by the people who want stuff for free, easily, and don't give a damn about the producers of the great work, this is seen not just here but also torrenting music and Pirating games. This very reason, however, is why Technic was born, ease of use to the consumer. I do agree Technic is a brilliant idea and the concept of a modpack should be embraced and promoted by mod authors, however if their work has been stolen by the pack, which is has, they should reserve the right to disagree with the perpetrators and to withdraw their work, a privilidge which has not been granted to them. From some of the comments that have been made I feel as if you do not want the mod authors to continue their work because you feel that they have too much freedom over their own work! You accuse others of forcing the Technic pack to 'Jump through hoops' when in actual fact you are forcing the mod authors to do this by stealing their work, it is no wonder Sengir rebelled. Here is a quote from kaker himself about his view on the modding community as a whole, found here: http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356 " I'd rather have everyone's permission but you two are the exact reason why I have a hard time giving this community a chance, your types make it absolutely toxic to everyone. I didn't have permission in the first place and yet here we are, more legit than it started out as. " Now to me this sums up exactly how the Technic pack works, steal from the mod authors and then, when they rebel, blame it on them for not wanting their work to be stolen! However in this post he does express his desire for the permissions, it is just a shame he hasn't the morality to follow through with this desire. Finally another quote from kaker, which i think may sum up some of the people on this forum: " Our 'site' isn't about grace, tact or class ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danidas Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The most the mod developers can do is implant some kind of virusy code into their "mods" and release that. But that's illegal, I think (Correct me if I'm wrong). They also cry like huge babies. Cry all day, all night. Rally up their supporters and go to kake's doorway and protest there. dong princess is one of the most perfect examples (An excerpt from his forums - "Just an FYI. dong princess has a blanket permaban policy for any supporter of Technic/Tekkit.", or even the way that FC has gone into their brains: "Yes, I even played the Technic Pack. Shameful, I know. ") and by far, the most arrogant ass I have ever seen. To have a giant ego is one thing, but to make your mod incompatible with everything, and be proud of it, is fucking maddening. TL;DR Read the damn post. By dong princess he means flower_child and the better than wolves mod that at a time was in technic until the whole catastrophe that caused him to make his mod incompatible with all other mods. Partly due to the technic devs including his mod with out consent and his dislike of forge as well as not want his mod to be included with any other. Naturally their is a lot of old drama/hate floating around the issue and these forums as well as the recent forestry one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neowulf Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 This community is one of the few that allows discussions like this to take place. MC forums will gladly delete posts they find inconvenient, FC and sengir verbally assault anyone who dares speak of the pack that must not be named in their presence, heck even the IC2 forums are chock full of haters who will accuse you of ampant code theft for daring to use the word "flax" in your work. If "LOLOLLLOLOLLL +1 diamonds 4U!!!" is classy, then fuck I need to go find the portal to bizarro land I fell through and go back to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Yeah Neowulf, I give credit to The forum admins for allowing this thread to stay open. You are right there are a lot of haters out there. Unfortunately the vast majority of them (both for and against technic) are ignorant of any of the facts. Most people who go round claiming Technic is illegal etc etc are totally jumping on bandwagons because they have no clue what laws if any are being broken. They just see the words illegal somewhere and that makes it illegal to them and they have chosen a side and they stick to it. By the same token most people that use technic follow a similar sort of pattern. They see a name they know saying technic is legit so they to say its legit, However when it comes down to it, they dont actually care one way or the other whether it is legit or not. danidas, that is news to me. I had no idea that technic had anything to do with flowerchilds decision to become incompatible. He quite clearly states in both his thread and in an interview he did that it was down to a disagreement with Eloraam about how they should move forwards with Forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neowulf Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The community deserves some credit as well for this thread, no one here will try to win an argument by calling you a baby rapist and telling you to go die in a ditch (and do it somewhere far away so your toxic remains don't pollute someone's food crops). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Yeah Neowulf, I give credit to The forum admins for allowing this thread to stay open. You are right there are a lot of haters out there. Unfortunately the vast majority of them (both for and against technic) are ignorant of any of the facts. Most people who go round claiming Technic is illegal etc etc are totally jumping on bandwagons because they have no clue what laws if any are being broken. They just see the words illegal somewhere and that makes it illegal to them and they have chosen a side and they stick to it. By the same token most people that use technic follow a similar sort of pattern. They see a name they know saying technic is legit so they to say its legit, However when it comes down to it, they dont actually care one way or the other whether it is legit or not. danidas, that is news to me. I had no idea that technic had anything to do with flowerchilds decision to become incompatible. He quite clearly states in both his thread and in an interview he did that it was down to a disagreement with Eloraam about how they should move forwards with Forge. First of all, thx for ftb, watched direwolfs vids, loved em. Second, I completely agree. Its like propaganda, maybe even brainwashing, you hear technic is illegal, you believe it and spread the word. Or you hear technic has all perms and is 100% right in every way and stick to that. But isnt there a way so we can hear both parts without sticking to a side and solve all problems together? Like a community is supposed to be? You said the world isnt perfect, it will never be. But cant we make it at least a bit better than it is now? Edit: instead of making useless posts that dont contribute anything to either side and make these forums a bad place to be, nobody is wanting to have tons of hate on a forum, or anything else they like to contribute something to or help a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheap Shot Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Sorry Slowpoke, there has been a definate lack of Technic Devs reposnding to you but I'm glad to see the thread has stayed a discussion. We work hard to try and keep a bit of oder of these forums and discourge lashing out and bandwaggoning. I'll try to respond to you if I can. Most of the other Technic devs are on vacation so you came knocking when the house was more or less empty. Gonna try and catch up on whats been said. Unless you're talking with someone with a red name, take it with a grain of salt. I'm recovering from party mode haha ouch. Also if it means anything to you, we all think jakj is a buffoon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Its cool Cheap Shot, your guys have kept me going all day. I am actually enjoying the discussion for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 If im asking things that im not supposed to, ignore this, but is there a permissions thread being planned? (like the one slowpoke mentioned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Gamer Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I can sort of see where psicraft is coming from, the developers have benefited from others sharing code or working together to make forge, so it's like taking from the mod dev community but not giving back. granted this is mostly a non-issue and the developer isn't required to open source their mod because while it uses common ideas, the final product is unique, they can close source it as they wish. I have wondered why technic has never posted a list of permissions it has, I haven't seen any Technic devs claim that they have all permissions, just that they were working on it. As slowpoke has mentioned, fanboyism can an issue. If the community are giving Technic a bad reputation, then this will likely make it more challenging to get permissions for new mods. I'm glad that these threads are allowed to live as it can be interesting to see other's views. Edit: it's nice to know that we aren't annoying you or anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-C Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I can sort of see where psicraft is coming from, the developers have benefited from others sharing code or working together to make forge, so it's like taking from the community but not giving back. granted this is mostly a non-issue and the developer isn't required to open source their mod because while it uses common ideas, the final product is unique, they can close source it as they wish. I have wondered why technic has never posted a list of permissions it has, I haven't seen any Technic devs claim that they have all permissions, just that they were working on it. As slowpoke has mentioned, fanboyism can an issue. If the community are giving Technic a bad reputation, then this will likely make it more challenging to get permissions for new mods. I'm glad that these threads are allowed to live as it can be interesting to see other's views. Edit: it's nice to know that we aren't annoying you or anything True, true. People are raging on technic, not realizing their words dont contribute anything to both groups, theyre actually making the situation worse for everyone, they give technic a hard time (less chance of Getting perms) and they make the people against technic look like a bunch of trolls, while they Arent (not all of them e.g. Slowpoke), if neutral people only existed :l, to the trolls of the opposing team (only the trolls, not all of u) hating isnt letting other people know what you think, its spreading hate and it only makes matters worse for the technic people to the technic guys: it would be smart and respectful to the mod authors to make a permlist, I hope this thread and some of the more thoughtful posts contribute something to the groups, and in the end we can all be happy Edit: to the technic guys and girls ^.^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowpoke101 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 May I ask one thing here, with regards to mod developers not respecting end users and not giving back to the community. They do nothing but give to the community, I sit here daily watching and listening in as they are busting their guts trying to bring the mods up to date. This particular iteration is especially difficult because they are not just trying to accommodate fundamental changes to minecraft code, but also there have been major changes to Forge code to. Yet they all all there every day trying to provide the end user with the best possible mods they can. You may not agree with every decision they make, I know I do not. But we can all at least show they some respect and not call them all sorts of nasty names. Remember you always have the choice to just not use the mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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