Why was the Condenser removed?

[RutibexRut]

Now this is proof you don't know what you're talking about. You're claiming a Destruction Catalyst is outperformed by a single Turtle. It's not. You can literally fly around underground and wreck everything, while a turtle just mines.

And yeah, sure. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy playing with EE2. I enjoy it every now and then as well. It's just that EE2 is no longer being developed due to various reasons, and that you should probably stop posting in every slightly relevant topic that you're mad about EE2 not being continued.

I never said it was better than one Turtle, it just gives you a decent yield vs time so that mining is actually worth while. If I mined with a drill or a enchanted pick I wouldn't come back with 1/4 of what my Quarry will dig up when I get home. I may as well just build stuff and rely on Quarry resources. With the Destruction Catalyst mining was a worthwhile use of my time, now it's not after a point.

I keep posting about wanting EE2 back because people posting about EE2 being OP are what got it nerfed. Turn about is fair play and I deserve to get what I want as much as all the people cheering EE2s death.

[Teraku]

You "deserve" to get what you want?

If you feel like you "deserve" to get EE2 back, then do it yourself or something. Posting harder, especially in the Technic forums instead of the appropriate forums about how much you want EE2 back isn't going to make it come back. It's not coming back because it was OP and supporting it would just slow down the development of EE3. There's simply no time or resources to support EE2 without EE3 grinding to a halt. It's called "change". Deal with it.

You already found a replacement for the collector+condenser, the Duplicator. So please stop spamming every thread about how much you want EE2 back.

[RutibexRut]

I deserve to get what I want as much as you do. You already got what you want, so maybe YOU should shut up. Nobody silenced you when you complained about EE being OP.

[Azeryn]

If you want diamonds without mining, there's plenty of ways to do it where you still don't get them for free. And it's included in EE3. You already stated you use quarries for resources. Transmute all the crap into diamonds then.

EMC will still be around, all they're doing is taking away collectors so you cannot get absolutely free things. Condensors are being removed so the process of transmuting wont be automated and abused.

So yes, you'll be able to transmute just like you did in EE2, it just wont be as OP. Transmutation tablet is staying. Plus there will be other ways.

Any thread with EE2 or condensor/collector in the title should just be deleted imo... all they are are flame was of people whining about EE2 and people telling those whiners to stfu.

[charles-t70]

I deserve to get what I want as much as you do. You already got what you want, so maybe YOU should shut up. Nobody silenced you when you complained about EE being OP.

Sorry, but what you're looking for won't be in EE3. Hate to break it to you, but if you want go hit up Pahimar's twitch channel and see if he keeps his past broadcasts saved online, he actually goes into detail about it (condenser) being OP, how he's aiming for balance, and how/why that means removing things like the condenser, collector, and relay - what you're looking for is Creative (Vanilla feature, if you weren't aware). Even x3n0ph0b3 states in his new mod that he'll be aiming for balance, so I wouldn't get your hopes up there

- Don't be a child on forums.

If you want diamonds without mining, there's plenty of ways to do it where you still don't get them for free. And it's included in EE3. You already stated you use quarries for resources. Transmute all the crap into diamonds then.

EMC will still be around, all they're doing is taking away collectors so you cannot get absolutely free things. Condensors are being removed so the process of transmuting wont be automated and abused.

So yes, you'll be able to transmute just like you did in EE2, it just wont be as OP. Transmutation tablet is staying. Plus there will be other ways.

Any thread with EE2 or condensor/collector in the title should just be deleted imo... all they are are flame was of people whining about EE2 and people telling those whiners to stfu.

Best idea I've seen so far was a tree farm (steves carts, not forestry) which would have the logs transmuted into obby then to iron -> gold -> diamonds. Once you have the tree farm going with a cart that runs off of the saplings that drop, while going around a track felling trees and subsequently replanting, then you've essentially got a steady supply of resources.

[RutibexRut]

Sorry, but what you're looking for won't be in EE3. Hate to break it to you, but if you want go hit up Pahimar's twitch channel and see if he keeps his past broadcasts saved online, he actually goes into detail about it (condenser) being OP, how he's aiming for balance, and how/why that means removing things like the condenser, collector, and relay - what you're looking for is Creative (Vanilla feature, if you weren't aware). Even x3n0ph0b3 states in his new mod that he'll be aiming for balance, so I wouldn't get your hopes up there

I'm fully aware of all EE3 developments and of the existence of creative mode; thanks for the pedantry. Complaining about EE2 got EE3 to be crapped up so complaining about EE3 should get it fixed.

[Valkon]

Complaining about EE2 got EE3 to be crapped up so complaining about EE3 should get it fixed.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

[SemiPr0]

We explained this earlier but its entirely possible using minium stones, automatic crafting benches and a reasonable amount of creativity to build a condenser, the only difference is a single block doesn't do all the work for you.

The condenser was not the corner stone of Tekkit nor EE2, all it really allowed for was for people to never have to do anything for resources after taking one trip into the Nether. After that, all you needed was a quarry piping crap into it and whatever item you wanted would inevitably show up in mass quantities. This isn't even touching on Collectors and how obscenely stupid they were.

And you can point at UU Matter all you like but it takes an inordinate amount of UU Matter to make any reasonable amount of resources. Its not the same at all. Its not like turning dirt into diamonds with absolutely no interaction required on your part other than to place a couple blocks (1 condenser, 1 large quarry space).

[RutibexRut]

We explained this earlier but its entirely possible using minium stones, automatic crafting benches and a reasonable amount of creativity to build a condenser, the only difference is a single block doesn't do all the work for you.

The condenser was not the corner stone of Tekkit nor EE2, all it really allowed for was for people to never have to do anything for resources after taking one trip into the Nether. After that, all you needed was a quarry piping crap into it and whatever item you wanted would inevitably show up in mass quantities. This isn't even touching on Collectors and how obscenely stupid they were.

And you can point at UU Matter all you like but it takes an inordinate amount of UU Matter to make any reasonable amount of resources. Its not the same at all. Its not like turning dirt into diamonds with absolutely no interaction required on your part other than to place a couple blocks (1 condenser, 1 large quarry space).

So what you are saying is that all EE2 needed was maybe a few tweaks to get it in line with UU? Maybe give dirt and cobble a negative EMC value when pumped into a Condenser, or make it eat up EMC for every transmutation it does? Or maybe a config file to adjust values to ban items that don't work on your server? I agree!

Of course that doesn't touch on stuff like the power rings and items. I have a feeling that the new versions are not going to be nearly as functional, and are going to be irritating to craft and maintain. That is the philosophy of EE3.

[EarthApocalypto]

Xeno promised we'd get something better to replace all the things taken out. It seems to be more of a a matter of patience here.

Either way, EE3's still not done yet so I'm excited to see new, fresh features.

[SemiPr0]

I had EE2 disabled on my server after a unanimous vote from all the players that play on it that it was wrecking the challenge of the game. Anyone with any level of EE2 understanding was pretty much done in a week of playing on the server.

And yeah I miss a few things from EE2, I felt Dark Matter tools were fantastic, they should be making a come back in EE3 from all indications, and sure I miss the Rending Gale too, but I can work without it as well. Some nano boots and a jetpack and I'm more or less okay.

EE2 didn't need a few tweaks to get it in line with IC2, it needed exactly what its getting, an entirely different approach to how EE is handled.

For an IC2 mass fabricator to generate enough UU Matter to be a balance level issue, it would have to be fed with an enormous amount of power for an inordinate amount of time. And if you can show me anyone thats pumping four nuclear reactors into a Mass Fabricator on a live multiplayer survival server, I'll show you someone thats been using NEI in cheat mode because the server admin forgot to set the lockmode in the server config.

And yeah I could pump four nuclear reactors into a Mass Fabricator, but it would take a ridiculous amount of resources to build those four reactors, an incredible amount of time management and monitoring to ensure the generation cycles were followed correctly and that as small a gap as possible between rod switches ensured the least about of productivity loss, and yeah in that situation I could make LOTS OF STUFF with UU Matter, but the main issue is I'll have USED about 4 times as much stuff as the first reactor generation cycle (even from four reactors) will produce with UU Matter, so the system doesn't even "pay for itself" without running a few reactor generation cycles.

EE2 never went "into the hole" on resources to create what it was capable of creating. You never had to push yourself to actually do any work to make any gains, really, beyond your first days mining expedition...(get enough diamonds for a diamond pick and a few extra for alchemical chest/condenser/source diamond....and some obsidian for your ONE Nether run you'd have to do to get glowstone dust) and...once you'd achieved the bare minimum to get the condenser running, everything else from there was a simple case of time with very little thought or interaction required.

Now don't get me wrong here I'm not telling you that you have no right to play the game the way you want to play it. Its just a large amount of the user base that used EE2, especially public server admins, felt it was drastically out of balance with other mods, EE3 is a good effort to try to make EE viable in a multiplayer server environment without it completely wrecking the point of any other mod being used alongside it. Personally I think the decision to balance down, rather than to tell everyone to suck it, was a brave decision on Pahimar's part and I have confidence that he'll eventually prove the EE3 overhaul to be an excellent addition to the modpack server scene.

[ThaDrone]

also the fact that you can make diamonds easier isn't that good. the addition of dark matter and red matter items balanced it out. if you think about it why have a diamond pickaxe when you can have a better one. so diamonds are not that great in ee2 when compared to it's additions.

Problem is that diamonds are valuable for IC things like a nano/quanten suit.

on a side note red matter was not OP or any of its creations. if you believe it is OP then you should believe nano and quantum armor is OP along with the nano saber. it may take EU but it takes forever for the charge to run out in quantum and plus the fact is you are indestructible in it for that time. i believe once somebody did that they will "get bored and start griefing people" the nano saber isn't as powerful as a katar but is cheaper to make than the katar. so if anyone hates ee2 for being too OP then i guess ic2 should go as well

Didn't said that, thats were you are digging days for underground.

[Teraku]

I deserve to get what I want as much as you do. You already got what you want, so maybe YOU should shut up. Nobody silenced you when you complained about EE being OP.

Let me put this as clearly as possible: You are thick.

It's not like they removed it only because it was OP. EE3 is simply not done. What do you not get about this? EE3 is not done. They CAN'T keep developing EE2. Under any circumstances. It's not like you can just take the source code and recompile it against Minecraft 1.4.6. It's much harder than that, ESPECIALLY now that SSP runs its own Internal Server. It takes tens of hours of work. Hours of work which are much better spent developing EE3 to fill in missing features such as the Transmutation Tablet.

If you don't get this, that's fine, but please shut the hell up about it.

[Portablejim]

UU matter can be nerfed. There is Advanced solars that makes it so that not everything for the solar panel can be made from UU matter (unlike compact solars), and there's Gregtech. Gregtech makes it so you make UU with the MatterFabricator that requires 10x (or is it 100x) the amout of power and a constant supply of scrap (any drop in supplied power results in loss of progress) and requires Iridium to be made. Iridium spawns about 1 every 5 chunks, in the nether and in the end (to solve the chicken and the egg problem about iridium). Play the mindcrack FTB pack then complain about overpowered UU matter, I dare you.

[RutibexRut]

Let me put this as clearly as possible: You are thick.

It's not like they removed it only because it was OP. EE3 is simply not done. What do you not get about this? EE3 is not done. They CAN'T keep developing EE2. Under any circumstances. It's not like you can just take the source code and recompile it against Minecraft 1.4.6. It's much harder than that, ESPECIALLY now that SSP runs its own Internal Server. It takes tens of hours of work. Hours of work which are much better spent developing EE3 to fill in missing features such as the Transmutation Tablet.

If you don't get this, that's fine, but please shut the hell up about it.

They are deliberately holding back the source so that NO ONE can port it. There are dozens of small time modders in Minecraft that would be more than happy to have the feather in their cap of maintaining EE2. Look at this guy, he maintains like a dozen abandoned mods that aren't nearly as prestigious as EE2. I bet he would be more than happy:

http://www.atomicstryker.net/

[SemiPr0]

The original author of EE only gave Pahimar permission to maintain EE2. Pahimar has decided to rewrite EE as its going to be in EE3, rather than port EE2 to MC 1.4x/1.5, and believes he does not have the right to extend maintenance of EE2 to any other developer as he was the sole developer given permission by Xeno to maintain EE at all.

Unless Xeno returns and passes the EE2 source to someone other than Pahimar, or open sources the project, then its a moot issue.

[Azeryn]

They are deliberately holding back the source so that NO ONE can port it. There are dozens of small time modders in Minecraft that would be more than happy to have the feather in their cap of maintaining EE2. Look at this guy, he maintains like a dozen abandoned mods that aren't nearly as prestigious as EE2. I bet he would be more than happy:

http://www.atomicstryker.net/

seriously, just stop talking. You have yet to post 1 valid reason to why EE2, condensors, etc. should stay or be maintained to the current minecraft version. You have heard from us EVERY single reason as to why EE2 is no more and the problems that came with EE2. All the information that you needed to make a logical and rational conclusion were spelled out for you here. Like Teraku said above "You are thick." There is really nothing more that needs to be said on this issue. We heard your so called "points" and you have heard the real reasons for no more EE2, so just drop it...

If you still have more issues with this matter, take it to the EE3 thread located http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1540010-equivalent-exchange-3-pre1f/

There's nothing that can be done about this on the Tekkit Lite forum as you're talking about a mod not even in Tekkit Lite. You have a problem with EE2, take it up with the people who create/develop/maintain EE2.

[Teraku]

seriously, just stop talking. You have yet to post 1 valid reason to why EE2, condensors, etc. should stay or be maintained to the current minecraft version. You have heard from us EVERY single reason as to why EE2 is no more and the problems that came with EE2. All the information that you needed to make a logical and rational conclusion were spelled out for you here. Like Teraku said above "You are thick." There is really nothing more that needs to be said on this issue. We heard your so called "points" and you have heard the real reasons for no more EE2, so just drop it...

If you still have more issues with this matter, take it to the EE3 thread located http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1540010-equivalent-exchange-3-pre1f/

There's nothing that can be done about this on the Tekkit Lite forum as you're talking about a mod not even in Tekkit Lite. You have a problem with EE2, take it up with the people who create/develop/maintain EE2.

This right here.

It's not like they're holding back the source just to make fun of you or other people who don't think EE2 is OP. EE2 has had a lot of contributions, and distributing the source would be unfair. That's why EE3 is now open-source. Make your own damn addon for EE3 which brings back condensers if it's "so easy to do".

I'm just going to drop the argument here, I've said what I wanted to say and I really don't want to risk getting involved in a PAINS match.

[RutibexRut]

The original author of EE only gave Pahimar permission to maintain EE2. Pahimar has decided to rewrite EE as its going to be in EE3, rather than port EE2 to MC 1.4x/1.5, and believes he does not have the right to extend maintenance of EE2 to any other developer as he was the sole developer given permission by Xeno to maintain EE at all.

Unless Xeno returns and passes the EE2 source to someone other than Pahimar, or open sources the project, then its a moot issue.

"returns"? He's there making a new mod and flat out refuses to talk about EE on the topic page. He could just as easily give EE2 to someone who would actually maintain it but of course then server admins would have to put up their "no EE2" signs again because it's so popular.

Make your own damn addon for EE3 which brings back condensers if it's "so easy to do".

I never said it was "so easy" just that there are lots of people out there who would do it. I would do it myself if I knew Java well enough.

[Valkon]

but of course then server admins would have to put up their "no EE2" signs again because it's so popular.

You seem to be insistent on the idea that it's banned from most servers for being too popular.

This is wrong.

[Azeryn]

of course then server admins would have to put up their "no EE2" signs again because it's so popular.

Again, you are thick. "no EE2 signs" because it was OP. Yes it was popular... but that's not the reason... Buildcraft is popular too... by your logic every fucking mod would be banned then. Do you even fucking listen? Can't you comprehend a simple fucking concept? Get over it, EE2 was OP therefor servers didn't have it enabled. EE2 is discontinued. EE3 is being developed now. Stfu. End of discussion.

[RutibexRut]

You seem to be insistent on the idea that it's banned from most servers for being too popular.

This is wrong.

Why would just being popular get things banned? That's stupid, why would you read my argument like that? No one bothers to ban or even ask for the Ultimate Fist or Diamonds from Dirt mod on servers because they aren't popular. You don't see "no dirt to diamonds" signs anywhere. EE2 is specifically banned on servers because it is popular with players and unpopular with admins.

Again, you are thick. "no EE2 signs" because it was OP. Yes it was popular... but that's not the reason... Buildcraft is popular too... by your logic every fucking mod would be banned then. Do you even fucking listen? Can't you comprehend a simple fucking concept? Get over it, EE2 was OP therefor servers didn't have it enabled. EE2 is discontinued. EE3 is being developed now. Stfu. End of discussion.

I am afraid it is you who do not understand what I am saying.

[Aurrin]

You have yet to post 1 valid reason to why EE2, condensors, etc. should stay or be maintained to the current minecraft version.

Perhaps I could make a more eloquent case. The real issue here (aside from a few bugs that gave server admins serious issues) is not one of balance, but a fundamental difference in play style. There are as many styles as there are people, but most of them are concentrated along a spectrum between what I'd call 'explorative' and 'creative'. It might help for me to expound a bit on both styles, and why they're in conflict. Hopefully, this will make it a bit easier to understand why some people are strongly in favor of removal or inclusion of EE.

Explorative players see minecraft as a competitive adventure. The entire point of the game is exploration, the thrill of discovery, and the satisfaction that comes from planning and building greater protections against the enemy elements of both the game and other players. Their hard work in uncovering resources in dangerous places results in a slow build-up of an empire, and their dedication can be (at least in part) measured by the virtual wealth amassed and the more valuable machinery purchased and outfitted.

Explorative players tend to find EE threatening or annoying because it provides a means to largely bypass the long acquisition phase of the game. This devalues their own acquisitions implicitly by removing their time-value. Time is one of the currencies by which people invest their lives, and the purchases carry the weight of attachment. That devaluation causes it to become very annoying and personal, and the people doing the devaluing seem to be gaining at their expense, hence the perception of cheating.

Creative players, on the other hand, see minecraft as a bucket of legos. The entire point of the game is the unleashing the imagination, creating entire worlds one block at a time, and the satisfaction that comes from planning and building grand vistas and intricate models. Their hard work in designing fantastic constructs and finding ingenious new uses for pieces results in a slow build-up of a wonderful mindscape of infinite possibility, and their dedication can be (at least in part) measured by the enjoyment of other players as they examine their creations.

Creative players tend to find EE an essential compromise that allows them to still have some of the more game-like aspects early on while quickly culminating in the gameplay that they find more interesting. Getting resources is a grind that becomes frustrating as it takes away their time while giving back ultimately very little. Taking away EE artificially stunts the scope and size of their creations, and causes resentment toward the people who seem to be championing the limiting of their creative potential, hence the perception of kill-joys.

There is an odd sort of symmetry between these positions, and as mentioned, it's a spectrum. Players often are somewhere inbetween the two positions, feeling more inclined toward one or the other, but uninterested in forsaking either entirely. As a correlary, the suggestion that creative players simply stick to 'creative' mode is usually unhelpful, as it requires abandoning all aspects of minecraft as a game, and (fairly or not) segregates them from most of the player base, as few servers run mixed-mode or pure creative. Social appreciation of creations is a large part of the draw for creative players, and being quarantined into their own group would also be frustrating for them.

I'm not entirely certain what would be a good solution to the conflict, but butting heads over mis-match assumptions and expectations is an exercise in futility. I'm hoping that we could perhaps direct this toward a more meaningful and productive discussion of potential solutions. Perhaps that's too much to expect, but hope springs eternal.

[Azeryn]

EE2 is specifically banned on servers because it is popular with players and unpopular with admins.

No. Just no. Please stop this useless trolling now. If this isn't just plain trolling, I don't know what is...

Aurrin, great post. So nice to see something actually thought out and logically argued instead of the, "well it's fun" reason...

I agree with almost everything that you said in that post. "Getting resources is a grind that becomes frustrating as it takes away their time while giving back ultimately very little. Taking away EE artificially stunts the scope and size of their creations, and causes resentment toward the people who seem to be championing the limiting of their creative potential, hence the perception of kill-joys."

Sure getting resources can be a grind, but if there isn't some bit of work involved, isn't it just creative mode?

And I believe that this is what EE3 is trying to bring to the table. It will give us that other play style that a lot of us love, but without the overpowered/cheating feeling that came with EE2. Items will still have EMC. Transmutation tablet will still be there. Collectors and condensors will not be though. No more being able to create everything from nothing.

[Valkon]

Why would just being popular get things banned? That's stupid, why would you read my argument like that?

Because that's the way you wrote it?

Stuff

You have a valid point, but a problem comes in when players decide to be the explorative type and still use, or rather abuse, EE2. Which forces other explorative-type players who would otherwise not use EE2 to use it if they wish to remain competitive.