Slowpoke (Feed the Beast creator) on the Technic pack

[killerx09]

Link to the article in question : http://www.feed-the-beast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5

For the lazy

So over the last few days and weeks there has been a lot of comments made about mod packs, the pack we are producing and the obvious comparison to technic and tekkit. My own personal feelings are reasonably public as to those packs. However I am endlessly reading statements from players on both sides which contain inaccurate statements. This post is mainly going to be focused on clearing up some of those innaccuracies. So if anyone reads stuff in the future from people who dont really have a clue whats going on, maybe you can point them towards this.

Before I start, I would like to make absolutely clear that I do not speak for any mod maker in this. These are my own personal observations and parts of them may be inaccurate. Feel free to correct me IF you can provide a substantive source for your correction.

OK lets start with the first most obvious question. Is technic and tekkit legal.

I am not a legal expert by any means and I have had different people tell me different things. However I have always sought to find out for myself what the truth is. In this regard, it boils down to something called derivative copyright. I have tried looking up information on this and the only real semi reliable posting I have found is on the unreal wiki

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/Legacy:Mod_Copyright

Whether the copyright is valid seems to be decided on whether or not Mojang implicitly gives permissions for modder to actually mod minecraft. The Minecraft terms and conditions are slightly shaky on this, but overall it appears yes it does. As referenced under the what you can do rule of the terms and conditions

http://www.minecraft.net/terms

So unless someone can show me otherwise, I have to believe that modders hold a derivative copywrite on their work and that includes

the exclusive right to reproduction,

the exclusive right to derivative works,

the exclusive right to distribution and

the exclusive right to public performance and display.

In the case of Mod Packs, the important part obviously is the exclusive right to distribution.

So now we have this information, are technic and tekkit legal. Well again I havent just taken other peoples words for this. I have literally gone through every single mod in the mod pack and in the cases where general permissions for inclusion in mod packs isnt given in the respective threads, I have approached the actual mod authors for their views. So the answer to the question is No they do not have a full set of permissions, however they are REALLY close to it. From the best of what I can gather, they are at most missing permissions for 3 maybe 4 mods. All the other mods in the pack either give general consents to all packs or the author doesnt care enough about technic or tekkit to say yes or no.

So what is the big huge problem. Well from my own personal point of view the legalities aside its down to pure respect. I want to very quickly reference something here.

http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&postID=28356#post28356

This isnt hearsay or anything like that, these are Kakermix's own words. This is one mod maker very clearly stating in public that technic does not have consent to use the mod and yet they continue to do so. I see no possible valid excuse for this. Whether or not it is legal, it is damn sure disrespectful to the creator. The following line from post number 65 is very informative

'I did not get permission from anyone and I didn't even bother asking. The Minecraft modding community is terrible and the egos some of the modders themselves have is incredibly terrible. I simply made this pack because I love these mods and want other people to experience them as well with as little work on their part as possible.'

And yet just 3 posts earlier we see a post that contains the line

'Nobody knows that we are friends with Eloraam, or that Ablaka was the first to give us permission, or that Xenophobe has always been thankful for us, or that Technic and the Yogscast is directly responsible for Thaumcraft being created.'

They are right in one thing nobody does know any of the information in that sentence, because quite frankly (and yes I have spoken directly to the Mod Authors) that sentence belongs in the Fiction Section of the local library.

Now having said all this, there are a few other things that I believe need to be made clear. Technic and Tekkit are really good ideas, there was a time a while back Where some of the modders tried to talk to the guys behind technicpack to resolve the issues. Attempts were made and they got nowhere. At the time this was no huge surprise because they still had one major hurdle to get over and that was the policies of Risugami with regards to the re-distribution of ModLoader. I have no idea if Technic had consent. However I can tell you that the response that we were given is that it is or was Risu's policy that you could re-distribute ModLoader as long as you did not ask permission to re-distribute it. As soon as you asked for permission, those implied permissions were revoked (unless you happened to catch Risu on a good day. I do know a couple of people who were given permission.) This was fine but this information wasnt conveyed anywhere. This meant that pretty much all mod packs that used launchers were breaking at the very least the minecraft forum rules which state that you have to have clear written permissions to promote your pack on the minecraft forums.

Getting back to the point. Technic and Tekkit as a pack are good idea's they are just implemented by people who generally dont care about the makers of the mods. They hide behind the line of 'We dont advertise permissions because it is pointless and if you dont believe us then well whatever.' This however does not apply to the users of the Techniclauncher. At the end of the day they just want the same thing as everyone else in this thread. An easy way to play Minecraft with mods without having to mess around. Further, when they play on servers, they want to be able to just give their friends a link say run this and let go screw around on a server. Thats what technic and tekkit provide and until now they have never really had anything serious in the way of competition. But we are not out to Get technic or have them burn in the fires of hell. We are just here to provide an alternative. Primarily I built a mod pack so people could easily play my maps. Now the mod pack is there so people can just enjoy playing minecraft the way I like to play it.

Before I finish off there is one other important point I would like to make here. Maybe correcting the biggest misconception there is with regards to the users of Technic and Tekkit. and that is adfly links. The reason mod makers dont want to see their mods in technic and tekkit is not because of some obscure belief that they want to protect and preserve the incomes they derive from these links. Whilst those incomes are helpful to some, it is not the be all and end all. However I can tell everyone this which should hopefully prove this point. I have spoken to a lot of the mod makers that are included in the FTB pack. Not just over the last week, but over the last several months. In that entire time with only one exception, every modmaker has not only granted me permission to use the mods in the mod pack but a lot of them have also been completely supportive in actually helping to add features needed.

My assumption is that if what the technic people say has been true all along, then they would be in full support of this mod pack and what we are trying to achieve. After all we all want the same thing, we are just going about it in different ways.

Anyways this is already FAR to long. However I hope it is slightly informative to at least a few people.

Slowpoke.

So, what do you guys think?

[xxmikegigsxx]

Someone who doesn't like Technic doesn't like Technic. That isn't much of a surprise. You can debate all day if Technic is legal but in the end it doesn't matter. Some people will play it even if it isn't legal and others will avoid it like the plague.

[killerx09]

I'm actually more curious on what the FTB modpack means for Technic, to be honest.

[freakachu]

I'm actually more curious on what the FTB modpack means for Technic, to be honest.

if anything, it will may give a lot of modpack haters pause, due to the fact that the people behind the FTB pack are well known and cannot be cast as "illegal" or "not legit" nearly as easily as kaker and cheapshot can be. at that point, if modpack a is ok, why are modpacks b,c, d, and e not ok?

I'm not under any illusions though that the discontent and hate will simply refocus to some other aspect of the pack instead though most likely.

in the end, I think competition is always a good thing for the end user.

[killerx09]

What I'm about to say might be quite controversial , but if Kaker wanted to, he could possibly retire the whole Technic pack if FTB proves to be of superior quality while being as easy to install as Technic. He dreamt of a modpack that included the best quality mods in an easy to install launcher, and from the sounds of it FTB sounds to be like that. Heck, maybe the FTB may end up in the Technic launcher one day.

Who knows?

[Jay?]

I've had some interactions with the FTB guys here, although not slowpoke. They seem like pretty chill folks.

Considering the emphasis on "clearing up misconceptions", it makes me wonder whether or not he talked to kaker or chapshot about anything though.

[Skarovich]

It makes me wonder if the reason many of the mod authors agreed to the FTB mod pack simply as a way to, how do I say it. "Sticking it" to Kaker, spiting him? I don't know.

I guess I'm trying to say that if Technic hadn't come around in the first place to "rile up" the mod makers, would they have ever agreed to this new mod pack? Or would they still be stuck in their "No, it's mine! Mine mine mine!" ways as before?

I'm not trying to pull a conspiracy out of nowhere or something, I'm just musing really.

Guess in the end it's not really worth bothering to think about. As xxmikegigsxx said; just another person who dislikes Technic and Kaker & Co. who continues to dislike them.

Granted, slowpoke has made a bit of a name for himself with the authors to begin with, before ever asking to make a mod pack of their mods.

Where as Kakermix started Technic as a little thing between himself and friends, never intending it to get as big/popular as it is, so seeking permissions was never something that crossed his mind at the time.

That's how I've understood it, anyways. Feel free to correct me.

I also had a much more eloquent post written up in my head, but that got all garbled from the transition from brain to keyboard. :/ I blame my fingers. And boy this post is a lot longer than I intended. Oops. :O

[Xylord]

What I'm about to say might be quite controversial , but if Kaker wanted to, he could possibly retire the whole Technic pack if FTB proves to be of superior quality while being as easy to install as Technic. He dreamt of a modpack that included the best quality mods in an easy to install launcher, and from the sounds of it FTB sounds to be like that. Heck, maybe the FTB may end up in the Technic launcher one day.

Who knows?

Well, I checked the modlist of FTB, and, if you ask me...

Anyway. About Haters.

There are haters, there were haters, and there will be haters. Gandhi had haters. Martin Luther King had haters. Einstein had haters. Technic has haters. Everything post a certain cap of popularity gets haters. Jealousy, ignorance, for bad or good reasons, it doesn't matter. Technic has haters, and will continue to do so and I'm sure that if FTB modpack's gets popular enough it'll start to get some haters too. What makes the difference is how we handle haters, and our indifferent-ish position is one particularly appropriate if you ask me.

[Torezu]

OP: Did you follow up on that post, and read this entire thread here? It's rather enlightening.

[Cheap Shot]

Considering the emphasis on "clearing up misconceptions", it makes me wonder whether or not he talked to kaker or chapshot about anything though.

Nope. If he was really intending to clear up misconceptions, we would be a vital stop to make. He can dig up as much old forum drama as he wants but we're way legit now. You could say we're "turning a new leaf" but we've always actually been nice and reasonable people. We've just spent a little more time recently talking to modders directly so that they can see that. Mainly because after a lot of effort on our part and time for the community to settle down, we aren't turned away outright anymore when trying to contact people.

It's easy to point a finger at us and go "They didn't have permissions! Evil! They should have tried harder!" but you don't really understand our position for a while. We couldn't even ask without getting the text equivalent of getting spit on. All because the pack took off when we were just intending to keep it a small thing inside a community. It didn't take long for people to start burning our effigies. After that the atmosphere was so toxic we couldn't sneeze without modders scowling and fanatics calling for our blood. So many people wanted technic though that we felt personally the ends justified the means for the time being. We still feel that because of how much good Technic has done for modding community in general.

Now that we've worked so hard to make Technic really impressive, and the community has finally calmed down and the majority of modders have relaxed toward us, we can finally come out of our bomb shelters and do things a bit more professionally. Maybe he can quote this post if he doesn't want to talk to us before "clearing up misconceptions".

[Xylord]

OP: Did you follow up on that post, and read this entire thread here? It's rather enlightening.

God, Kaker is one of the most patient guys I've every seen. I would have long gone through the rage-ish and crude insults-ish road if I was in his place.

[Jorcer]

OP: Did you follow up on that post, and read this entire thread here? It's rather enlightening.

Wow some of those posts *almost* restored a bit of my faith in humanity... Cheapshot and Kaker were especially eloquent.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

I am curious to see how they handle the launcher. I doubt the flames will ever die down though, but to be fair, I don't want them to. Although the idiot modders are disheartening, the rabid fans are hilarious drama.

[Jay?]

I'm actually more curious on what the FTB modpack means for Technic, to be honest.

I see two possibilities being likely, both of which are good for the end user.

A) FTB and technic end up in a "quality arms race", trying to outdo one another, and it just ends up with two great packs.

FTB and Technic start specializing more, trying to do things that the other doesnt, leading to more variety to choose from in modpacks.

[Adlersch]

I am curious to see how they handle the launcher. I doubt the flames will ever die down though, but to be fair, I don't want them to. Although the idiot modders are disheartening, the rabid fans are hilarious drama.

The only thing about this that has the potential to frustrate me (And that's saying a lot. A lot of stuff pisses me off.) is that this sort of attitude will never help the Minecraft modding community or indeed the Minecraft community in general.

Keeping too many 'rights' and preventing any and all user input on your work (Or someone else's work they are a fan of, in most cases) doesn't help the modders' or the community's creativity and ability to create good mods. It stifles it, and hurts the community as a whole.

If a new modder to create a great, completely revolutionary mod sees this sort of attitude in the community, he or she may turn away and never create it. If a new modder has an idea to add to any of these mods and sees this attitude or gets it from the modmakers, then that add-on, that little creative tidbit to make it actually better will be lost forever, and we'll never know it.

This attitude stifles creativity and ruins co-operation, all of which are necessary for a healthy community as well as a happier end-user.

[Torezu]

I see two possibilities being likely, both of which are good for the end user.

A) FTB and technic end up in a "quality arms race", trying to outdo one another, and it just ends up with two great packs.

FTB and Technic start specializing more, trying to do things that the other doesnt, leading to more variety to choose from in modpacks.

Either way...it's not like this is commercial/consumer competition, so the only possible results will be positive in one way or another, as far as I can tell.

[Air_Gamer]

It may also depend on how quickly FTB gets updated.

If FTB updates it's mods 10 or so times between Minecraft updates while Technic only updates it's mods 2 or 3, players who want to use the latest mods will chose FTB.

Granted, if FTB goes the way of "update it now, fix it later" then players may prefer a mod pack that goes though more testing like Technic.

[jakj]

Can't be bothered to read past the nonsense about respect. Disrespectful to use the mod in the pack? How about disrespectful to your mod's users to the point you want to deny them a convenient and easy way to play your mod?The "holdout" modders don't give a fuck about their players and just want the status. Hypocrisy, double-dealing, and underhanded tactics, and to blazes with the people who just want to play.As far as I'm concerned, if you want to be a dick about your mod, just take it and leave. We don't want you.

[slowpoke101]

Hey, If this is the only post I make here thats cool, but just to clear things up

Cheap Shot, I did get in touch via PM on these forums with Kakermix (the pms are still there if you want to see em) with regards to technic going legit and well he did the usual hide behind the veil of I do not need to prove anything to you blah blah blah. Its a shame really, because my life would have been so much easier if I could have just built FTB maps using technic pack as a base.

[jakj]

You're the one being uptight about a bloody modpack and launcher system that exists only to make life easier for people to play these mods. It's your decision, not Technic's, for you to not use it for your project.

[Cheap Shot]

Hey, If this is the only post I make here thats cool, but just to clear things up

Cheap Shot, I did get in touch via PM on these forums with Kakermix (the pms are still there if you want to see em) with regards to technic going legit and well he did the usual hide behind the veil of I do not need to prove anything to you blah blah blah. Its a shame really, because my life would have been so much easier if I could have just built FTB maps using technic pack as a base.

I'm not sure why you can't. None of the modders in the pack are asking for the mods to be removed. He honestly doesn't need to prove anything because that's 100% between him (or us) and the modders. We have permissions now but we're not going to jump through hoops for anyone because honestly there are people who will never be satisfied. I still don't understand why everyone thinks they need to fight battles for modders who have never tried to rally the troops. The modders as far as I know are all adults, and so are we, and adults can handle things on their own.

And have infact. We've had many private discussions with modders and things are much more satisfactory now. If you don't want to use technic to make your life easier, It sounds like the only thing in the way still is needless hostility. You are very welcome to use Technic. It's not worth it to keep holding other peoples grudges.

[freakachu]

Hey, If this is the only post I make here thats cool

that's not how we roll around here. perhaps you were thinking of the IC2 forums or MCF? you have no reason to fear bans or anything around here as long as you post intelligently, no matter your viewpoint.

for the record, you post intelligently.

[killerx09]

Just woke up, and god did this thread inflate rather quickly. I'll look at the comments after I come back from ROTC.

EDIT: Just dropping this off before I go, CovertJaguar did stop caring about the Technic Pack.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=45TOdV8MqvM (I know)

[Jay?]

Just woke up, and god did this thread inflate rather quickly. I'll look at the comments after I come back from ROTC.

EDIT: Just dropping this off before I go, CovertJaguar did stop caring about the Technic Pack.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=45TOdV8MqvM (I know)

You realize you just linked to a huge fuckall thread of youtube comments right? Can't see shit in there.

[Adlersch]

You realize you just linked to a huge fuckall thread of youtube comments right? Can't see shit in there.

Yeah... Me neither. I only saw three of CovertJaguar's posts, and those were in the very beginning.

Call me lazy, but I simply don't care enough about it to read all of that for one or two posts. If someone isn't lazy and does find it, I'd appreciate you posting the quote here I guess.