Slowpoke (Feed the Beast creator) on the Technic pack

[spartanyanni]

This is getting dangerously close to an argument. Both of you cool it, especially you jakj, you know what Cheapshot said.

Also, this thread is about resolving issues between both "sides", not Sirseguir's past "war crimes", as some might put it.

[slowpoke101]

Actually right now I am completely cool. Surprisingly I think me and Jakj are a lot closer to not hating each other than we were yesterday its just a single bone of contention now and that is cool.

[spartanyanni]

Yes, YOU are cool, but jakj, as gotyaoi puts it "You do have a habit of saying what's on you mind without giving a proverbial fuck."

He is the one I am worried about :v:

[warpspeed10]

You guys are overshadowing the core argument here with unnecessary drama. That argument is based around copyright, perceived or otherwise. If it hasn't become clear to you already over the past few decades, the old notion of copyright law does not work anymore. In some cases it even hampers intrepid artists. Just look at Jonathan Coulton for example. He decided to release one song a week for free, and encouraged others to share his work. People would here the awesome notes and hilariously clever lyrics of his songs and be directed to the author who created them. After a year of this he started charging 1 dollar for most of his songs. Because people had spread his voice around the internet, instead of refusing to play works not downloaded from the original source, he gained a large cult following and is now hugely popular in nerd culture. I had absolutely no Idea who Coulton was when I first heard one of his most famous songs, Still Alive. So too did I not know who Sengir was when I first started playing his forestry mod. The key difference between those two is one embraced the mere fact that people were enjoying his songs, while the other insisted on being the sole distributor of his modification of the minecraft code.

This thread is becoming quite silly. Did we all suddenly forget that this is just a game? You know... have fun and all that? That was kind of the whole point of allowing your source to be modified freely. Just look at what it did for Valve.

[jakj]

Surprisingly I think me and Jakj are a lot closer to not hating each other than we were yesterday its just a single bone of contention now and that is cool.

The word "hate" is misused so rabidly on the Internet, but pedantry aside, yes, this is pretty much the case. It is not an easy thing, but I have to acknowledge the subjective nature of my dislike of the practices of many non-Sengir modders: I have not been proven wrong by anyone, and I cannot prove myself right, as it is just my personal view of how I think the world should work.

[slowpoke101]

Warpspeed I have to say this, but your entire thread falls down when you say

while the other insisted on being the sole distributor of his modification of the minecraft code.

You see Sengir never insisted on anything of the sort. I have had consent to distribute Forestry for quite a while now and I am not the only one. Also whilst for you the end user Minecraft is 'just' a game. For people like Sengir I can assure you it is not just some Game, Forestry is a project that he sinks a huge amount of his personal time into. Minecraft modding in general is something that he sinks a huge amount of personal time into. Remember as well as Forestry he is a co maintainer of Buildcraft amongst other things.

[Adlersch]

I think improving relations with the modders and whatnot is definitely in everyone's interests. But if the modders feel strongly enough about removing their mod from the pack, then they can come and request it. We won't bite their heads off - everyone who loves having their mod in the Technic Modpack will try to convince them to do otherwise - but their wishes in the end would be respected.

This has been stated before, and if any of the modders you personally talk to still don't know this, then you could easily inform them and point them to the various threads on our forums where it has been stated (Which I won't cite, because I'm lazy. They're really not that hard to find.). To me, this is the only solution that is realistic for everyone. The modders (I assume) are adults, and so are (I assume) the Technic Team.

The end users (Of both the Technic Pack and the individual mods) may or may not all be, which is why some don't make an effort to educate themselves. Those who aren't (Or simply choose to be ignorant) generally follow the example of whomever creates (Or in Technic Pack's case, puts together) the content they enjoy. If the modders and the Technic Pack team make a show of being mature and, while maybe not working together, at least respecting one another, acting like adults, then the majority of end users would (Eventually) follow.

That being said, these problems aren't going to go away quickly. And I doubt they'll ever disappear fully. However, that is the first logical step in my mind that allows modders some degree of control and what respect they desire, and doesn't have an immediate effect that largely hits the end-user.

[Air_Gamer]

CovertJaguar stated that it was more a matter of respect, but you point is still valid in a way.

On to the current sengir sabotage discussion, yes he asserted his desires in an childish manner (the only modder I've seen approve his actions was flower child and I've been told that sengir got some backlash from his own community) but nobody is helping themselves by holding past actions against each other. Along as there respective party knows they done wrong (I.e. not asking permissions is bad, attacking end users is also bad) we should move on.

If we keep holding past actions against one another, we will get nowhere.

[noonespecial1]

i came to think of a thing.

the reason why technicpack exsist is to make modding easier right?

so if someone made an installer only for forge and those mods that goes into the jar should it not be pretty easy for the user to just download and then drag and drop all mods into the mod folder?

technic could just give out a list of mods and the config files.

would that not make everyone go away happy?

[slowpoke101]

Absolutely. The point I wanted to highlight when I spoke about Sengir, wasnt about what happened in the past, but more about what the future may hold. Maybe it might help to focus on the fact that he was happy for me to state that given the right circumstances it is not beyond the realms of imagination here that Sengir would change his mind.

Right I think for now I am going to drop out of this conversation. I will still be watching but I believe I have put across all the points I wanted to get across and I thank the people who have taken the time to read and respond to the points I have made. I have made it pretty clear what I would need to see if I was to get involved in this in any way shape or form. If the technic admins decide this is something they want to try and they take steps to make something like this happen, then I will be happy to do what I can to help out.

quick edit, that has been tried noonespecial. I know this sounds silly to a lot of you but there is a huge proportion of people that do not even know how to locate their minecraft folder, and they certainly dont want to go through the hassle of downloading individual mods. Mod packs are a good idea for a reason when they are done right.

[xxmikegigsxx]

If you believe Sengir can be forgiven for his past actions, why can't Kaker? Sengir broke the Technic pack for all of it's users. Kaker just upset mod develpers.

[Jay?]

If you believe Sengir can be forgiven for his past actions, why can't Kaker? Sengir broke the Technic pack for all of it's users. Kaker just upset mod develpers.

Can we get off of this train of thought? it really isn't a productive one. Also the difference between creators being upset and consumers being upset is a pretty vast difference. Not saying i necessarily agree, but if you're going to make an analogy, at least make it an accurate one.

[Cheap Shot]

Yeah, that analogy is way too complicated and when anaolgies get complicated they get useless.

I don't really wan't to talk about sengir though because that was a long time ago. I don't hate the guy. I never did, no one here did. I remember even when he put that code in and it was found, and a big fight erupted between the users, I was over at MCF trying to get people to calm down and leave Sengir alone and to respect his thread and not shit all over. My posts over there were of course deleted for who knows what reason, but I know Pahimar saw them. It's one of the things we chatted about when I ran into him on IRC.

I'm sure he is a nice guy irl. I don't doubt it. You could argue that he did nothing wrong because it was his mod and were were doing bad badguy things etc etc but no matter if you feel we were doing good or bad, he had a problem with us, but he punished the end user instead. He hurt, at that time, about 300-500 thousand people using and enjoying his mod instead of us. Were way againt that so it would be hard to mend that kind of burnt bridge.

No more about Sengir though. That is likely never to be resolved and Sengir said himself that everyone should just shut up about it. Forestry discussion isnt required for this thread. Now if youll excuse me, my bluetooth keyboard died on me and Ive had to finish this post via text messaging. Also kaker is still unreachable anyway so Ive got nothing to discuss yet.

[M-C]

Yeah, that analogy is way too complicated and when anaolgies get complicated they get useless.

I don't really wan't to talk about sengir though because that was a long time ago. I don't hate the guy. I never did, no one here did. I remember even when he put that code in and it was found, and a big fight erupted between the users, I was over at MCF trying to get people to calm down and leave Sengir alone and to respect his thread and not shit all over. My posts over there were of course deleted for who knows what reason, but I know Pahimar saw them. It's one of the things we chatted about when I ran into him on IRC.

I'm sure he is a nice guy irl. I don't doubt it. You could argue that he did nothing wrong because it was his mod and were were doing bad badguy things etc etc but no matter if you feel we were doing good or bad, he had a problem with us, but he punished the end user instead. He hurt, at that time, about 300-500 thousand people using and enjoying his mod instead of us. Were way againt that so it would be hard to mend that kind of burnt bridge.

No more about Sengir though. That is likely never to be resolved and Sengir said himself that everyone should just shut up about it. Forestry discussion isnt required for this thread. Now if youll excuse me, my bluetooth keyboard died on me and Ive had to finish this post via text messaging. Also kaker is still unreachable anyway so Ive got nothing to discuss yet.

Lol, wired keyboards r like 10 bucks , its a 5 min walk to the electronics store where I am, dunno about you tho, btw a tablet is a great secondary cpu when youve got trouble :)

[Cheap Shot]

Lol, wired keyboards r like 10 bucks , its a 5 min walk to the electronics store where I am, dunno about you tho, btw a tablet is a great secondary cpu when youve got trouble

Im on an IPad atm. I'm not a fan of the on screen keyboard.

[M-C]

Im on an IPad atm. I'm not a fan of the on screen keyboard.

Lol, same, at least it works, im getting way off-topic here XD

[cpw]

Hello, I am just posting to support Slowpoke in his efforts here. I don't want to hold a grudge against Technic pack, heck seeing those early Yogs videos introduced me to MC modding.

But I think Technic pack needs to grow beyond their "F**k You" roots and start showing the people who create the content they share, the modders, some respect.

As an example, I just noticed that two of my "pure" mods are being distributed in Technic- Iron Chest, Compact Solars. As well, you are distributing my custom bukkit server build (I am responsible for the Forge+Bukkit integration, with help from others), and finally, I notice you're distributing Minecraft Forge which contains FML, authored by me as well. I have never been approached by anyone from Technic about distributing any of this.

To be clear, as a foundational mod author, I believe mod packs are an absolute necessity. I even added a hook into FML just for modpack authors to add additional branding to the MC client. (check out fmlbranding.properties . FML exists as it does today because of a mod pack request from slowpoke, to solve the "ModLoader problem".

However, as a developer, I have little respect for Technic at present, because they have made no effort to try and earn my respect, at all. Not even a "hello". Not even "we're using IronChest/FML/whatever". Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. That doesn't feel like respect to me. That feels like neglect, and I'm an easy modder. Everything I do is open source. I WILL not stop you. I cannot stop you. All I have ever asked for is "Hi, we're using X, Thanks!". That's about as low a barrier as it gets and so far Technic has failed to jump it.

My request to Technic: man up, demonstrate you want to change your ways. Put a public permissions post together, like slowpoke did. Reach out to all the developers, personally, 1 on 1 - a lot of us hang out on esper a lot of the time, most of us are not hard to contact. Make sure you don't avoid the easy ones like Forge and IronChest "just because they're open source" - we're your test cases to prove you want to change your ways. Make sure all of this is very public and don't bullshit us about secret conversations.

If you demonstrate you want to turn over a new leaf and get the modders' respect,then I see no reason why we can't start changing our opinions. We're all adults, or pretend to be anyway

Finally, I suggest you start now. Make 1.3 your "chance to change". It's gonna be another couple of weeks before modding 1.3 really starts to become mature enough for your end users anyway. Take the time NOW to show that 1.3 Technic Pack/Tekkit will be different.

By the way, if my identity is in doubt, just pop by esper, I am the real cpw, slowpoke can vouch for me (like I need vouching for).

[M-C]

Hello, I am just posting to support Slowpoke in his efforts here. I don't want to hold a grudge against Technic pack, heck seeing those early Yogs videos introduced me to MC modding.

But I think Technic pack needs to grow beyond their "F**k You" roots and start showing the people who create the content they share, the modders, some respect.

As an example, I just noticed that two of my "pure" mods are being distributed in Technic- Iron Chest, Compact Solars. As well, you are distributing my custom bukkit server build (I am responsible for the Forge+Bukkit integration, with help from others), and finally, I notice you're distributing Minecraft Forge which contains FML, authored by me as well. I have never been approached by anyone from Technic about distributing any of this.

To be clear, as a foundational mod author, I believe mod packs are an absolute necessity. I even added a hook into FML just for modpack authors to add additional branding to the MC client. (check out fmlbranding.properties . FML exists as it does today because of a mod pack request from slowpoke, to solve the "ModLoader problem".

However, as a developer, I have little respect for Technic at present, because they have made no effort to try and earn my respect, at all. Not even a "hello". Not even "we're using IronChest/FML/whatever". Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. That doesn't feel like respect to me. That feels like neglect, and I'm an easy modder. Everything I do is open source. I WILL not stop you. I cannot stop you. All I have ever asked for is "Hi, we're using X, Thanks!". That's about as low a barrier as it gets and so far Technic has failed to jump it.

My request to Technic: man up, demonstrate you want to change your ways. Put a public permissions post together, like slowpoke did. Reach out to all the developers, personally, 1 on 1 - a lot of us hang out on esper a lot of the time, most of us are not hard to contact. Make sure you don't avoid the easy ones like Forge and IronChest "just because they're open source" - we're your test cases to prove you want to change your ways. Make sure all of this is very public and don't bullshit us about secret conversations.

If you demonstrate you want to turn over a new leaf and get the modders' respect,then I see no reason why we can't start changing our opinions. We're all adults, or pretend to be anyway

Finally, I suggest you start now. Make 1.3 your "chance to change". It's gonna be another couple of weeks before modding 1.3 really starts to become mature enough for your end users anyway. Take the time NOW to show that 1.3 Technic Pack/Tekkit will be different.

By the way, if my identity is in doubt, just pop by esper, I am the real cpw, slowpoke can vouch for me (like I need vouching for).

Whats the esper address?

[gotyaoi]

So onto the wall of text, it is great to see this conversation carry on overnight. So take it as confirmed CovertJaguar is the real CovertJaguar. So gotyaoi, this is kind of backwards considering the technic guys said dont start shit but personally I think you have a legit question. Hold on, I will ask a mod developer right now. OK so spoke to a developer who has a closed source mod, from his point of view keeping his mod closed source has allowed him to maintain a greater degree of control over the way his mod has evolved and this has helped to keep him motivated on the development of his mod. The feeling was that going open source may remove some of that control and the motivation to continue development would disappear.

So, two more pages... Sleep is awesome, by the way.

Now, even aside from the idea of closed source in java being as fragile a concept as it is, I can accept that point of view. However, putting aside even the right to study, copy and modify(the first, second and third bits of copyleft), there's the right to use the software(the zero-th bit), which is more what I was asking about.

Put another way, how does this developer differentiate between someone downloading from his site or thread and installing his mod themselves vs using the technic launcher to install?

[SPARKST3R]

Whats the esper address?

Most devs hang about on #direwolf20

and im pretty sure you can find cpw on #minecraftforge

Others of interest are

#redpower ( occasionally Eloraam)

#ftb (Slowpoke)

#buildcraft (Sengir and Krapht)

[Redm00n1]

People make mistakes. My post earlier mentioning Sengir wasn't meant to be an attack (I apologize if it appeared that way). It is his own right to do what he wishes with his mod, even if people don't like it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just forgive someone. This is one of those cases in my opinion.

Also, as for how we keep talking about the future relationship between the modders and the Dev community, perhaps Technic can acquire a few people who will solely work with modders and the community? They could keep the social interactions and permissions all neat and tidy, and make sure the modders are alright with what is going on. And when all is said and done they could talk to the other Technic Devs. and tell them how things are going or conglomerate their ideas into a solution for problems? Just an idea of course.

[slowpoke101]

Just to confirm that is the real CPW.

[Cheap Shot]

Also, as for how we keep talking about the future relationship between the modders and the Dev community, perhaps Technic can acquire a few people who will solely work with modders and the community? They could keep the social interactions and permissions all neat and tidy, and make sure the modders are alright with what is going on. And when all is said and done they could talk to the other Technic Devs. and tell them how things are going or conglomerate their ideas into a solution for problems? Just an idea of course.

There's no reason to outsource that job. We just need to get to know each other better and open better lines of communication, and I think the modders may even come to like us over time.

As for this thread. I've managed to get in short contact with KakerMix but he wont be back from across the country for another week or two. I am not prepared to act on my own any further because I don't have all the information on my own and my technical knowledge is limited (I'm Technics artist primarily) and it's gotten to the point where everyone needs to be able to give input. I won't be able to discuss much anymore until a later date. If the conversation continues I'll stay to moderate and keep the peace, but nothing substantial can happen until then. I'd like to thank people for putting forward their best behaviour in here and showing that the Technic community is a positive one. You've done me proud.

As you said slowpoke, the ball is generally in our court so you and of course the modders will have to allow us to get our team together before we play. This discussion is pretty much exhausted and has covered most of what needs to be covered. While we wait for all the technic devs to get together, understand that we've heard the concerns and understand where everyone is coming from. We're very serious about turning over a new leaf and we'll be discussing how we intend to do so. We're not going to make moves without careful consideration of the situation or the expectations of the modders.

[Deimos56]

So... Just as a suggestion, and I'm not going to pretend to pretend to know what I'm talking about, but would it possibly be reasonable for Cheap or Slowpoke or whoever to get ahold of a few more of the modders whose work is in the mod pack over the next week or two, and then when more of the Technic team is available have a meeting of some sort? Would that be a thing that could potentially be productive in this situation?

[spartanyanni]

Bottom line: Make the f*cking permissions thread. Already 2 developers have asked in this thread alone, and a friend of the majority of them was here for basically the whole discussion.