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VermillionX

EE and Tekkit

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Hey, Been playing Tekkit for a few months now and like most pro players have noticed just how overpowering EE really is.

Why was EE even added to the Tekkit modpack? It just doesn't fit in any sense of the word.

IndustrialCraft, BuildCraft, RedPower, RailCraft and even (the now gone) Forestry all work together with each other, using cables, pipes and shared/converted power systems. However, Equivalent Exchange exists outside the close-knit group of interconnecting original mods as a standalone mod that defeats the purpose of the technological aspect of Tekkit. Which is... everything.

Why spend hours and countless stacks of materials to create a mechanical masterpice like a quarry, when 5 minutes with some random junk at the bottom of the "to bin" chest can let you craft a destruction catalyst that can flatten countless miles of farmland into bedrock-deep hole in another 5 minutes?

Why make Bronze, Quantum, Nano armor, Tools in general, When you can loop an Energy Condenser to produce infinite emc with nothing more than a couple of pipes and Automatic Crafting Tables to make a dark matter farm with nothing but junk found while getting a few chunks of coal?

Why use tools that break when you can have illogical dark matter that is indestructible and can mine a vein of ore without even looking?

Why have a tool that can do one thing, when you can have a ring that does 8 things at once?

What should be rare items become commonplace and cheap junk.

Any sort of Economy on a Tekkit Server goes out the window when everyone can create anything from nothing.

If End Game items like Red Matter is obtained within a few hours of playing, what more is there to do? You've got the rarest of the rare; Got armor that vaporizes mobs on sight (makes no sense btw); Can fly, walk on water, walk on lava, can make every item at once without denting your emc.

Many/Most Tekkit Servers heavily restrict EE already, so why leave it in the pack if it's not being used to it's potential for easily identifiable reasons?

EE cannot be used in creative mode, leaving it's only use in Survival, in which case it GIVES creative mode. So why have a mod that only works in survival to give creative?

I'm sure EE works fine on it's own, with Vanilla Minecraft. But when paired up with the automation and supply functions of Tekkit, it easily takes over a server and turns it into a mess of dug-up land, vast 15 high caves that stretch for thousands of blocks in every direction at bedrock, taking the diamonds that any & every new player needs to even start (Damaging to any and every server).

Tools are meant to be used then break.

Armor is meant to protect, not destroy.

Ores and Dust are meant to be smelted, not transmuted.

Mining is meant to be based on finding the right ores, not finding the most EMC.

Items and tools are meant to do just one thing. Not seven seperate things.

Tekkit was technology. Now it's magic.

Tekkit was balanced. Then came inequivalent exchange.

Now, I KNOW there are probably hundred of people raging at my hate of EE's existence in Tekkit. But they either don't play long-term on servers, can't play survival for sh!t, are just plainly lazy or they're new to Tekkit and haven't had to sit with EE being used to corrupt even the best servers over time. I've seen first-hand what happens when EE is left to run rampant on servers at the hands of excitable little kids with catalysts who just want to take what they can then leave. Resulting in a map reset every 2-3 months.

So... What do I want? Should be obvious. I personally want Equivalent Exchange removed from Tekkit for the sake of all worlds and all servers. To bring skill, patience and challenge back into Tekkit. But that's just what I want.

The usual response from those "excitable little kids" is: "If you don't like it. Don't use it."

Don't be a little kid. Look at a real server in the long-term, given months of abuse at the hands of Equivalent Exchange. Just "not using it" on a server won't work if competing players take out all the layers that hold diamonds before you even get there, or blow holes in the ground where you could've built a town, freeze the water around your island home or harvest your wheat for emc so you can starve. None of this used to happen. Now it happens on every server.

Now, will you all reply like excitable little kids, or sensible adults?

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Servers can block its use, either totally or partially, for everyone or for specific players. On single player, as us "excitable little kids(?)" say, if you don't like it, don't use it.

And if we're excitable little kids, you are far too dramatic. It's a single part part of a game, no need for this all or nothing campaign you seem to be trying to start.

I do however concede that it's crazy overpowered.

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I agree, i hosted a small-ish scale private server, 10 people. once someone makes one collector and a world anchor they are set for life. instant diamonds.

I love some of the rings in EE, maybe the ability to fly, MAN thats awesome, walk on water thats good to.

The best way, i can think of, to balance EE is to have people BUY the red matter and the EE fuels, then they can BASIC transmute (transmutation tablet & klien star) for more if you want to use up your diamonds. Then craft rings and armor, therefore not making it AS op but still god damn useful.

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I don't think EE should be taken off of Tekkit at all.

If people don't like it, there are tons of servers that disable EE.

And Tekkit is not about technology! Tekkit is a mix of Technic and Bukkit.

Technic refers to Technical stuff. If magic has pre-dertimined rules and numbers, it IS technical.

In my opinion the only overpowered item is the energy collector. But it costs like 10 diamonds and you can achieve the same thing with redpower cobblestone generators. Should the block breaker be disabled too? And the macerator DOUBLES the ores you get!

And it's much easier to get than a dark matter furnace. What about Mining laser? They can also point and click explosions and break through obsidian in contact. The elctrical tools in Industrial craft are industrictible and I would have a Quantum Armor over Red matter armor any day. The truth is: for 1 red matter armor you need 1440 diamonds. I wouldn't call that reallistic to get in a PVP server. And if you find someones base you can steal their energy collectors drop them in lava or use them yourself.

EE is only OP in endgame BECAUSE the other mod endgames aren't as late.

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I really have to agree with vitorsly. I don't play tekkit, so i have no idea if this has been implemented in it yet(it has in technic), but a few of the recipes have been changed in technic(probably to combat the claims that EE is overpowered). Red matter, which used to cost 1 dark matter and 8 Aeternalis Fuel, now costs 3 dark matter and 6 Aeternalis fuel(466,000 emc), that's nearly triple what it previous cost. Also the Quantum Armor has alot of special effects which the red matter armor(full set costs around 8.6 million EMC) simply doesnt have that. The gem armor(upgraded red matter armor) requires fully charged Omega Klein stars, Omega Klien Stars alone take forever to make(costing 25,165,824 emc), let alone charge. The full set comes out to 317,397,830 emc, i could make a full set of quantum armor in probably a third of the time it would take for a gem armor set. Is EE powerful and convenient, yeah, is it overpowered, any more so then industrial craft? Debatable, but I'm gonna say not really.

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Truth be told, all of these mods need to be decompiled by us and given a rebalance for the pack.

But that isn't likely to happen due to the stifling set of pseudo restrictions the major mods have.

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still, on a 24 hour server world anchors and a collector can do that in, well i haven't done the sums but its really quick. like 1 collector connected to a condenser over my weekend made 3 stacks of diamonds. and your trying to tell me it doesnt make things easy.

people on my server are making Automatic farms and stuff, EE collectors take 90% of the fun and pain you go through to set up a quarry or a blockbreaker/deployer setup.

But you know, everyone is entitled to what they want to think. even if its wrong in the eyes of someone else.

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But you know, everyone is entitled to what they want to think. even if its wrong in the eyes of someone else.

Problem is, while people are allowed to play the game how they want, having EE infringes the playstyle of every single player, as those like me who abhor it become very far behind.

Some people can find that frustrating and will just give up and condense everything evar for instadiamonds.

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my best mate is like that, i told him next tekkit update, i might ban collectors on my server and that he has to learn ic2 or something. He started to learn it, taking a bit of time, mainly copys me. just to make uu-matter into glowstone for high emc.

once a magician always a magician as he says. Atleast he is trying....

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I don't think EE should be taken off of Tekkit at all.

If people don't like it, there are tons of servers that disable EE.

And Tekkit is not about technology! Tekkit is a mix of Technic and Bukkit.

Technic refers to Technical stuff. If magic has pre-dertimined rules and numbers, it IS technical.

In my opinion the only overpowered item is the energy collector. But it costs like 10 diamonds and you can achieve the same thing with redpower cobblestone generators. Should the block breaker be disabled too? And the macerator DOUBLES the ores you get!

And it's much easier to get than a dark matter furnace. What about Mining laser? They can also point and click explosions and break through obsidian in contact. The elctrical tools in Industrial craft are industrictible and I would have a Quantum Armor over Red matter armor any day. The truth is: for 1 red matter armor you need 1440 diamonds. I wouldn't call that reallistic to get in a PVP server. And if you find someones base you can steal their energy collectors drop them in lava or use them yourself.

EE is only OP in endgame BECAUSE the other mod endgames aren't as late.

Cobblestone Generator: I assume you're referring to the Cobblestone Generator + Block Breaker > Alchemical Chest + Gem of Eternal Density combo?

Guess what? Equivalent Exchange is the one doing the changeover to diamonds.

Macerator: it's part of IC2. Almost every machine in IC2/BuildCraft and most of their components are made using iron, tin and copper. The amount mined manually doesn't cover the amounts necessary to build the primary machines. The Macerator assists by doubling the amount of ingots you get to match the demand. Fortunately, the dusts cannot be smelted into 2 ingots in a red/dark matter furnace as well. However, they can be transmuted directly from dust to ingot by a tablet or condenser not only removing the use IC2/RedPower furnaces but VANILLA furnaces as well. Btw, the Energy Condenser only costs 5 diamonds: A single vein.

A mining laser requires not only 2 diamonds (almost half a condenser) to create, it requires 2 glowstone dust for the advanced circuit (Nether travel), making it an expensive item. Easily lost on death, can drain huge amounts of power from an MFE/MFSU and exhausts its supply of EU in a matter of seconds on your oh-so loved explosive mode. For mining, the laser doesn't really stack up to it's own name. I use it for around-the-house chores on low-focus.

Electrical Tools: The name says it all. They must be charged, they expend EU to be used. They expend it fast. Sure, they don't break But they pay it in stored energy instead. They don't do anything much differently from their manual counterparts. Can you really compare a diamond drill, with extremely limited power and only a single function to a Dark Matter Pick that can do FIVE different things all at the same time, breaks most blocks instantly and NEVER breaks? Even worse, a Destruction Catalyst recovers it's own (minimal) fuel from what it mines and makes a perfect tunnel that would take 5-10 minutes of normal mining to make and it drops all the items in a convenient little ball at your feet. No diamonds falling into lava, no being careful, no challenge, no skill.

I totally agree with you that Quantum is also overpowered. It's an end game armor with some very nice functions. imo, it should have the defense of Nano, with the abilities of Quantum, with higher energy loss based on how much the armor's abilities are used. Helmet should reduce hunger consumption instead of nullifying it.

Note: Your view on EE is it's use on a PvP server. There are more non-PvP Tekkit servers than PvP and if a PvP server wants to manually add a mod like EE, they're welcome to. It might be more balanced in a PvP environment where you can lose a lot where griefing is allowed and from dying. But when it comes to the other mods and building/surviving in a normal environment, you gain too much from EE and expend too little.

EMC farms make that legendary goal of getting Gem Armor too easy and it's not even for defense. It attacks, not defends. The ability to fly, shoot lightning bolts, explode the landscape... Those are Mod/Admin/OP commands. No player should EVER get them in a survival setting.

A jetpack (Both versions) have height restrictions, set fuel consumption and you take damage from falling (as well you should!). Requiring both skill and precise timing to boost before you touch the ground to lower the distance fallen. With a tablet on hand, you can provide infinite fuel for a Swiftwolf which gives Creative Mode Flight, removes ALL fall damage, consumes minimal emc from a klein star and doesn't need to be equipped or even held. It can just sit in the corner of your hotbar.

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I think it should stay, I think giving people the ability to use these end-game items or spend time on Quantum. People like different things and give them the ability to use it.

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I think it should stay, I think giving people the ability to use these end-game items or spend time on Quantum. People like different things and give them the ability to use it.

That's the thing. Neither become end game items when they are achievable in a day.

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I honestly don't really have a problem with EE itself.

I do know, however, that when I do reset my server, I will *probably* disable things like energy collectors and relays. I think the transmuting is useful, but getting items out of thin air feels a bit cheaty and overpowered to me.

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I don’t think it should be removed, I don’t use it myself but I don’t think it should be removed from Tekkit. If you don’t like it find/make a server which has it or parts of it disabled, simple. I think the truly over powered items are chunk loaders on servers. With your chunks loaded, an overnight sleep will give you riches beyond your wildest dreams, exaggerating of course. This is true for collectors, solar arrays making UU, Red Power frame and buildcraft quarries. All of these are processes which are meant to take hours or days to complete yet with a chunk loader block all of these can be achieved in your sleep.

Mind you, I am not hating on chunk loaders, they are great things and essential for many aspects of he mods. I just feel they are easy to abuse.

Also remember Pahimar is working on EE3 and he said he will make it more balanced and not a kinda creative mode.

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The server I play on has Alchemical Chests, Energy Condensers, Relays and Collectors all banned. But that doesn't stop the existence of the rings, amulets, tools and armors.

Everything in the original mods have balance. They're mostly compatible with Vanilla in most aspects where you could integrate them into Vanilla Minecraft and Jeb or Notch wouldn't mind so much. They do Vanilla tasks in a better or more interesting way. The EE... everythings disregard Minecraft mechanics in exchange for "easy mode" bordering on Creative Mode. Right click any ore with your pick to mine the entire vein, right click with your Catalytic Lens to basically WorldEdit a hole, jump twice to turn on creative flight, etc...

Is there a point in IC2 and RedPower with EE, when there's a single item or tool that does everything that 12 machines are needed to do with no cost?

What's left to do once you've set up an automatic EMC farm? You get everything, flight, invincibility, all items. Is there really a difference between EE and a creative server? 2 hours of work, then fun time?

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They're mostly compatible with Vanilla in most aspects where you could integrate them into Vanilla Minecraft and Jeb or Notch wouldn't mind so much.

Errm, what? Do you have basis for this claim? Quotes, videos, evidence?

Anyways, I don't know why you're so dead set on eliminating Equivalent Exchange forever. If you host a server, disable it (Or the parts you dislike). If there are like-minded people out there, they'll join your server and you'll gain popularity. If enough people think like you do and are on your server because of the lack of EE, then maybe the Technic Team will see a common denominator.

However everyone has their own style of play, their own goals, and their own talents. Because my style of play is different from yours, I don't think your style should infringe upon mine either (And upon my private server). If EE on servers infringes upon your style of play, disable it on your server, or play on others that do not have it enabled. But don't claim that it infringes upon how others play the game, then try to change how I play Minecraft.

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Cobblestone Generator: I assume you're referring to the Cobblestone Generator + Block Breaker > Alchemical Chest + Gem of Eternal Density combo?

Guess what? Equivalent Exchange is the one doing the changeover to diamonds.

Of course it is costing you OVER 8000 Blocks for each diamond right?

Macerator: it's part of IC2. Almost every machine in IC2/BuildCraft and most of their components are made using iron, tin and copper. The amount mined manually doesn't cover the amounts necessary to build the primary machines. The Macerator assists by doubling the amount of ingots you get to match the demand. Fortunately, the dusts cannot be smelted into 2 ingots in a red/dark matter furnace as well. However, they can be transmuted directly from dust to ingot by a tablet or condenser not only removing the use IC2/RedPower furnaces but VANILLA furnaces as well.

So doubling you materials for a measly energy cost that you can get free ( water, solar and wind generators (though to be fair wind generators are UP) is balanced but smelting those dusts for free isn't? And I agree dusts should not be able to be doubled in a DM/RM furnace. THAT would be OP.

[ Btw, the Energy Condenser only costs 5 diamonds: A single vein.

A mining laser requires not only 2 diamonds (almost half a condenser) to create, it requires 2 glowstone dust for the advanced circuit (Nether travel), making it an expensive item.

1 diamond for the high covalence dust + 1 for the alchemical chest + 3 for the diamond pick to get obsidian + 4 for the enrgy condenser = 9 diamonds. Mining laser is 5 diamonds only.

Easily lost on death, can drain huge amounts of power from an MFE/MFSU and exhausts its supply of EU in a matter of seconds on your oh-so loved explosive mode. For mining, the laser doesn't really stack up to it's own name. I use it for around-the-house chores on low-focus.

Unless you are very carelees, you should be fine with that midgame armor that protects 90% damage. And by exhausting your EU suply do you mean that thing that is a easy to get as your oh so dreaded EMC? And explosive mode is for destruction. Mining mode is for mining.

Electrical Tools: The name says it all. They must be charged, they expend EU to be used. They expend it fast. Sure, they don't break But they pay it in stored energy instead. They don't do anything much differently from their manual counterparts. Can you really compare a diamond drill, with extremely limited power and only a single function to a Dark Matter Pick that can do FIVE different things all at the same time, breaks most blocks instantly and NEVER breaks?

And you thing the special functions are cheap? Also a drill and a chainsaw act as 2 in 1 tools. And if you want the DM pick and shovel it is ~80 diamonds. A diamond drill is less the 4. 20 Diamond drills VS 1 DM pickaxe...

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No, Vitorsly, I am not insulted. Adlersch is closer to being insulting.

So far all i've seen from your opposing side in this debate is dependence on EE. Can you give any real reason why EE should stay? This game IS called Minecraft, and as far as EE is concerned, you only need to mine once, then sit back and watch the resources pour in, then... quit having achieved all that is possible.

btw, there are countless EMC farms and abusable functions in EE that are more than just a "trickle" of emc.

A cheap and simple method involves 2 Converters, 1 Automatic Crafting Table and some pipes + a redstone engine. Cobblestone = 1 EMC, Cobblestone slab = 1 EMC. 3 cobblestone = 6 slabs. See where it's going? simply loop the crafting table with the condenser to take cobble, turn it into slabs and feed it back to double your emc each round. This is a trickle, but can be done while you're out doing something else. Adding distribution pipes and stronger engines with more crafting tables will increase the speed.

If you're using the Forestry Mod, it has it's own Bronze Ingot worth 128 EMC that with autocrafting tables can be made into a buildcraft bronze block, then dismantled again into 9 BC bronze ingots worth 256 EMC each. Cycle them. Infinite emc, no work, no effort and this is no trickle...

Those are just some autocrafting table examples. Now, you don't even need to work to get items to feed a condenser. It feeds itself.

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i find it funny that people find different parts of EE bad and others good.

Condensers- even hard core EE haters seem to use this as a means of dealing with massive quarry waste. Diamonds from "nothing" just as bad as the collector flower powering it.

Collectors - money for nothing essentially. Even 1 collector is bad when paired with a condenser. Infinite lava generators for Geothermal?

Catalyst ( and later that mace ) - simply lead to wanton destruction. Yes, you can do the same with the mining laser but not as effortlessly.

Klein stars - credit card really. removing this solves alot of EE liberalness. It should have an inherent degradation in stored charge really. Coupled with say an emc loss of storing emc as you go up in level.

Equipment - the ring/flying is probably the worst as it makes it simply "creative" mode.

Relays/transmutations - this is honestly the lowest threat of the whole mod.

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No, Vitorsly, I am not insulted. Adlersch is closer to being insulting.

So far all i've seen from your opposing side in this debate is dependence on EE. Can you give any real reason why EE should stay? This game IS called Minecraft, and as far as EE is concerned, you only need to mine once, then sit back and watch the resources pour in, then... quit having achieved all that is possible.

btw, there are countless EMC farms and abusable functions in EE that are more than just a "trickle" of emc.

A cheap and simple method involves 2 Converters, 1 Automatic Crafting Table and some pipes + a redstone engine. Cobblestone = 1 EMC, Cobblestone slab = 1 EMC. 3 cobblestone = 6 slabs. See where it's going? simply loop the crafting table with the condenser to take cobble, turn it into slabs and feed it back to double your emc each round. This is a trickle, but can be done while you're out doing something else. Adding distribution pipes and stronger engines with more crafting tables will increase the speed.

If you're using the Forestry Mod, it has it's own Bronze Ingot worth 128 EMC that with autocrafting tables can be made into a buildcraft bronze block, then dismantled again into 9 BC bronze ingots worth 256 EMC each. Cycle them. Infinite emc, no work, no effort and this is no trickle...

Those are just some autocrafting table examples. Now, you don't even need to work to get items to feed a condenser. It feeds itself.

Reasons for EE to stay?

It is very fun ( in my opinion anyway), is useful to dispose of all that cobblestone from the quarries, gives a use to gold,has a nice system and one of my favourite features as a builder: Let's you choose different wood colors.

The cobblestone slab can only be reallisticaly used with buildcraft. Should we remove buildcraft?

I don't use forrestry so can't say anything there.

Besides that I agree it has some problems but they are small enough to not warrant removal from the game.

And I think I heard somewhere that EE3 is gonna be released a in few months and it's going to be much more balanced.

And you are forgeting that IC2 can also make diamonds from nothing.

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Reasons for EE to stay?

gives a use to gold

What. Really? This is also one of my main arguments. EE makes users skip straight past the good stuff and throw everything into the condenser for moar diamonds. Your knowledge of the other mods is cut short because you have zero need for them.

Granted, I have no say in how you should play the game, but comments like these annoy me.

Plus, the rest of your post indicates you are primarily there to build pretty things (yes, I build pretty things too)

But that's the sort of thing that belongs in creative, not on a Tekkit server.

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i find it funny that people find different parts of EE bad and others good.

Condensers- even hard core EE haters seem to use this as a means of dealing with massive quarry waste. Diamonds from "nothing" just as bad as the collector flower powering it.

Collectors - money for nothing essentially. Even 1 collector is bad when paired with a condenser. Infinite lava generators for Geothermal?

Catalyst ( and later that mace ) - simply lead to wanton destruction. Yes, you can do the same with the mining laser but not as effortlessly.

Klein stars - credit card really. removing this solves alot of EE liberalness. It should have an inherent degradation in stored charge really. Coupled with say an emc loss of storing emc as you go up in level.

Equipment - the ring/flying is probably the worst as it makes it simply "creative" mode.

Relays/transmutations - this is honestly the lowest threat of the whole mod.

Indeed, some parts are good. The Interdiction Torches are handy as hell, but have an expensive cost to match. The repair Talismans are nice too.

I personally use a Recycler or two with overclockers for disposing of cobble and dirt from a quarry.

Anything that can make something from nothing is bad. The fact that collectors turn energy into mass is absolutely obsurred and impossible to begin with.

The biggest problem I have with the tools and rings is the sheer number of abilities they have. Every machine, every tool, every block in the game has one main use. Why should this one mod have tools that not only use 5 extremely powerful abilities in one tool, but are unbreakable. It's just TOO much. 2 abilities and the durability of Unbreaking 3 Diamond Pick would be fair.

IC2 can make diamonds, yes. But it's end game. Even with EE, it's a shit to get the power to run a single mass fabricator (2 HV panels. Is that 4m emc or 8?)long enough to make those diamonds. Consuming 9 UU matter for 1 diamond. Although, with EE the most efficient way to to make 6 UU matter into 8 glowstone then transmute it into Diamonds (Not equivalent).

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EE takes self control on the user's part. I avoid Equivalent Exchange like the plague for everything other than building. By that, I mean every item I craft is achieved without EE. However, in order to build the large, complex bases I prefer I require the building materials from EE. It is indeed possible to not use it at all, however, it is more fun to just build big structures, than to farm marble for 2 hours.

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What. Really? This is also one of my main arguments. EE makes users skip straight past the good stuff and throw everything into the condenser for moar diamonds. Your knowledge of the other mods is cut short because you have zero need for them.

Granted, I have no say in how you should play the game, but comments like these annoy me.

Plus, the rest of your post indicates you are primarily there to build pretty things (yes, I build pretty things too)

But that's the sort of thing that belongs in creative, not on a Tekkit server.

In case you are referring to me in the last phrase of the first paragraph: I do know quite a bit about the 4 major mods ( maybe not so much for Redpower but I don't really use complex restone circuits)

It is nice you understand that some people like to use EE. I don't want to make it so that everyone uses it either.

I like building stuff. But getting everything from thin air is boring.

BUT VITORSLY! YOU CAN GET EVERYTHING WITH EE. IT'S LIKE CREATIVE IN HARD MODE!

And I don't agree. When I play survival mode, I feel MUCH more attached to the world. I dump creative worlds like a monkey with bowel problems, but I only have one active survival mode world and/or server. And when I feel I finished or died and rage-quit, I still wait to start a new one.

Give a man a catle and he will be entertainned for 20~30 minutes.

Give him a magic backpack and the ability to punch down trees and he will be entertainned for 3~4 days or when he falls into lava, whatever comes sooner.

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Give him a magic backpack and the ability to punch down trees and he will be entertainned for 3~4 days or when he falls into lava, whatever comes sooner.

Falling into lava isn't even a problem if you've got a Ring of Ignition. Or a Volcanite Amulet. Or Infernal Armor (gem armor chestplate).

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