EE and Tekkit

[Adlersch]

Pahimar, the maintainer of EE2 and creator of EE3 knows how unblanced EE2 is. That is why hes changing the EMC system greatly for EE3 (And my source for this is him directly, from his livestream the other night). He said (may not be 100% correct) that he is having the recipe items and such have a dynamic EMC value based on what is contained within the recipe. So while, say, a sticky piston crafted with a slimeball may be worth x EMC, a sticky piston crafted with sticky resin will be worth y EMC. Thats about as much as I remember/know. Go check out his twitch livestreams if you want to hear more directly from him.

I'm not sure how this will fix things too much, to be honest.

I'd just find out which is worth the least EMC, make one, then transmute things into the cheapest sticky piston so as to save EMC (When I need a sticky piston). It won't fix the system (And I know he's not done or near done, obviously), so he has his work cut out for him.

[racingpro]

I'm not sure how this will fix things too much, to be honest.

I'd just find out which is worth the least EMC, make one, then transmute things into the cheapest sticky piston so as to save EMC (When I need a sticky piston). It won't fix the system (And I know he's not done or near done, obviously), so he has his work cut out for him.

Like I said, there's a lot more to it. And no, it won't be perfect, but his aim is to decrease that unbalanced part of it. That's also part of why he removed Red Matter, and made it more difficult to actually get a P Stone and really get going with EE3

[Watchful11]

I remember hearing in direwolfs server play series something about completely removing EMC.

Instead, he will have different types of, something, that correspond to different attributes in a material.

For example, iron has so much, say, hardness and so much shiny. I'm making those names up.

Pumpkins don't have any hardness or shiny, so you cant make them from iron.

But maybe gold does use hardness and shiny, and glitter as well, so you have to go find all those attributes, in the correct amounts to make gold.

And I'm pretty sure that pahimar knows very well the reputation that his mod has and is seeking to rectify the problems.

note: I'm extrapolating the above from a few offhand comments, so it is surely far from correct, but you get the idea.

[Made_You_Look]

^I really hope you heard wrong, because that system sounds ridiculous. I think he does need to revamp the system, but "shininess" and "hardness", wth?

[Watchful11]

No no, i made the names up.

Its just the concept that different types of items have different attributes.

And you have to have the right attributes to make an item.

[gotyaoi]

Yeah, doesn't sound that crazy. Sort of, you have to transmute something from something like itself. Interesting possibility.

[warpspeed10]

Still, don't try human transmutation. Things could end... badly.

[gotyaoi]

Water, 35 liters. Carbon, 20 kilograms. Ammonia, 4 liters. Lime, 1.5 kilograms. Phosphorous, 800 grams. Salt, 250 grams. Saltpeter, 100 grams. Sulfur, 80 grams. Fluorine, 7.5 grams. iron, 5 grams. silicon, 3 grams, and 15 other elements in trace amounts. That doesn't seem too difficult...

[Watchful11]

Plus one hefty lighting strike

[warpspeed10]

But what could equal a human soul?

*Begin epic saga*

[Made_You_Look]

But what could equal a human soul?

I'm sure Thaumcraft has something to that end.

[Sacrieur]

I question whether EE even belongs in Tekkit at all. It doesn't mesh well with the machine/tech theme going on. It's trying to fill a big chemistry gap that should be chemistry and not alchemy. It belongs in a magic modpack not a tech one.

Even at the lower levels of its use, EE becomes game breaking. With covalence dust, it's already too easy to repair equipment for very few resources. It isn't necessarily game breaking as it is just making it too easy, since it also removes enchantments. But that's until the talisman, which allows you to keep enchantments. It eventually breaches the game breaking level with an alchemical chest.

The entire benefit of using electric tools were that they don't wear out, they just expend electricity. With enchantments you can get better gear (except armor), but electric tools are far easier to maintain. EE breaks this, because why use a diamond drill when you have a diamond pickaxe with high level enchantments that you can repair just by putting in a chest for minute or two?

The philosopher's stone in conjunction with IC makes gold and iron renewable resources, since now charcoal can be turned into coal, and coal into diamonds (obsidian is renewable).

IC, at least, takes a lot of time to get on your feet and a lot of work, so you definitely feel like you've earned what you make. And at the end levels you can pretty much generate all sorts of cool stuff, but it isn't cheap, so it isn't game breaking.

And all this, before you even start leveling everything with a single click of a button.

--

Don't get me wrong, there should be a way to repair items, and even enchanted items, but EE isn't the answer to that and the content it adds doesn't sync with anything else.

[NightKev]

Once again, server admins can (and do) restrict EE in any way they wish, all the way to outright banning it entirely. Removing it from the modpack does nothing to affect those servers that have already effectively removed it, only the ones that have parts of it active. It only causes problems by removing it from base Tekkit.

Also, there most likely will not be another Technic/Tekkit update for 1.2.5, and EE2 is not going to be updated for 1.3.2 until after he releases EE3 (if at all), which is pretty much a balance-focused rewrite. Therefore, this is a moot issue and people should shut up about it. Please lock the thread, mods.

[Torezu]

I question whether EE even belongs in Tekkit at all. It doesn't mesh well with the machine/tech theme going on. It's trying to fill a big chemistry gap that should be chemistry and not alchemy. It belongs in a magic modpack not a tech one.

This has been discussed before. Technic and Tekkit, other than the name, do not have a machine/technological theme. They simply combine a bunch of cool mods. That's it.

Once again, server admins can (and do) restrict EE in any way they wish, all the way to outright banning it entirely. Removing it from the modpack does nothing to affect those servers that have already effectively removed it, only the ones that have parts of it active. It only causes problems by removing it from base Tekkit. *stuff* Please lock the thread, mods.

This is not your thread to request a lock. If you don't like it, don't look at it. For everyone else: this argument has been done to death. I highly recommend not posting if you're going to spout the same old tripe about it being unbalanced. NightKev said what's been said several times: servers can lock/limit/ban EE to whatever degree they choose. It will not be getting removed from Tekkit 3.1, unless there's a huge technical problem, like it starts crashing servers all over the place. Since that's really unlikely to happen, this entire thread means jack until the next huge mod pack update.

[SimpleGuy]

Don't get me wrong, there should be a way to repair items, and even enchanted items, but EE isn't the answer to that and the content it adds doesn't sync with anything else.

Just to elaborate on what Torezu said, and to pull an old quote out of my ass: "The theme of the pack has reflected a certain level of technicality. This should not be equated to technological."

[Neowulf]

I don't use EE, and the only problem I have with it is the sheer number of whiners it creates.

Left in the pack: "I don't like it, take it out! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"

Taken out of the pack: "I liked it, give it back! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"

Fully enabled on a server: "It's impossible for me to force the server to have an economy, OP must remove it! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"

Partially enabled on a server: "But I NEED <disabled item> to play, give it back! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"/"You left in too much, take it all out! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"

Fully disabled on a server: "OMFGWTF?!? Gimme EE now OP or I'll hack/sue/report/kill you! WAAAAAHHHH!!!"

[Sacrieur]

Well I didn't feel the need to respond, but if we want to play it this way.

The issues I brought to the table haven't been discussed yet in the thread. Previous complaints were about EMC and various high level combinations -- no one really seemed to deal with the low-mid level stuff.

Further, I said it doesn't mesh well with the theme it had going on, I never said anything about an intended theme. IC, Redstone Power, Build Craft, and Computer Craft bring almost all of the new content to the table, and they're all machine/technology themed -- whether you like to admit it or not.

I even made the point that EE was actually trying to fill a gap in tekkit; a chemistry gap, which also had not be mentioned previously. Are my apparently unique insights not worth sharing? I see that there's some defensiveness going on. Will EE³ be able to remedy the situation? I don't know, maybe. Give it a shot at least.

The modders and developers can do whatever they wish, I'm certainly not demanding anything of them. So don't get the wrong impression.

[SimpleGuy]

It seems you have stumbled upon one of the oldest topics that has ever been rehashed on the forums ever, so if it seems like the moderators and some members here seem tired of discussing it, that's probably why. Maybe not in this particular thread, but I've seen some great number-evidence based and logically based EE arguments and some utter crap arguments surrounding EE over the past 9+ months.

Just be careful and don't get too soft-mushy-idealistic on me. The cold steel of reality really kicks in when you realize no matter what is said here, EE will be in the pack as long as KakerMix is making mad cash (off the collectors) and throwing all the parties* in his Equivalent Fortress of Industrial Thaumsomeness.

Also, EE doesn't feel like chemistry to me, more like alchemy.

*Cheap Shot hogs the attention of all the women.

[warpspeed10]

*Cheap Shot hogs the attention of all the women.

There's always alchemy...

[Watchful11]

Further, I said it doesn't mesh well with the theme it had going on, I never said anything about an intended theme. IC, Redstone Power, Build Craft, and Computer Craft bring almost all of the new content to the table, and they're all machine/technology themed -- whether you like to admit it or not.

I even made the point that EE was actually trying to fill a gap in tekkit; a chemistry gap, which also had not be mentioned previously. Are my apparently unique insights not worth sharing? I see that there's some defensiveness going on. Will EE³ be able to remedy the situation? I don't know, maybe. Give it a shot at least.

Lets go over a couple things here.

There is deliberately no theme to tekkit. It is a collection of well built mods.

Why is no one complaining about the thaumcraft in technic? (incidentally it's mostly because its not op)

Those mods do bring new content to the game, but they are machine/technology based only in appearance.

How in the world does some stone, redstone and a bit of glass get you a computer? And you only have to add a couple diamonds and some iron to make a mining turtle. Logically the complexity of such a device should necessitate a complex tech tree to acquire it.

And a quarry? If there is any magic in tekkit aside from EE its the quarry. It can somehow magically build a frame, clear out an area, and teleport blocks to a nearby chest.

Now, EE does bring several new innovative features to the game that no other mod does in the same way. I mean, how is the principle of EMC not innovative? It is op, but that's beside the point at the moment.

As for filling a gap, that is kind of hard to quantify. Is the lack of a space ship mod a gap? Certainly not a chemistry gap. What part of EE is chemistry?

Unique insights are always worth sharing, the question is whether you can respond logically when someone says they aren't right.

Fortunately, none of this matters.

EE will stay in the pack regardless what anyone says.

EE3 will be different enough that most of what we are arguing about will be moot.

[Sacrieur]

Lets go over a couple things here.

There is deliberately no theme to tekkit. It is a collection of well built mods.

Never said it wasn't. I said it has a theme, regardless of whether that was deliberate or not.

Why is no one complaining about the thaumcraft in technic? (incidentally it's mostly because its not op)

Because this is about Tekkit.

Those mods do bring new content to the game, but they are machine/technology based only in appearance.

How in the world does some stone, redstone and a bit of glass get you a computer? And you only have to add a couple diamonds and some iron to make a mining turtle. Logically the complexity of such a device should necessitate a complex tech tree to acquire it.

And a quarry? If there is any magic in tekkit aside from EE its the quarry. It can somehow magically build a frame, clear out an area, and teleport blocks to a nearby chest.

It's a video game, not a simulator. The mods are just keeping with the spirit of its design.

Now, EE does bring several new innovative features to the game that no other mod does in the same way. I mean, how is the principle of EMC not innovative? It is op, but that's beside the point at the moment.

As for filling a gap, that is kind of hard to quantify. Is the lack of a space ship mod a gap? Certainly not a chemistry gap. What part of EE is chemistry?

EE is based on alchemy, the precursor to modern chemistry. We already have electricity, engines, pumps, and machines that all are based off of modern science. The only piece of modern science missing is chemistry. Making C4, for example, would be chemistry.

[Watchful11]

Never said it wasn't. I said it has a theme, regardless of whether that was deliberate or not.

Um, i think you misread that. I said it deliberately does not have a specific theme.

Because this is about Tekkit.

So when tekkit for 1.3 comes around you wont mind it being in there?

It's a video game, not a simulator. The mods are just keeping with the spirit of its design.

Um, whats the difference?

If this is a direct reference to the fact that minecraft is written in java and can easily be modded then yes, mods are keeping with the spirit of its design. If it has something to do with the spirit of the modpack, that's the same thing as the theme of the pack, of which there isn't one.

EE is based on alchemy, the precursor to modern chemistry. We already have electricity, engines, pumps, and machines that all are based off of modern science. The only piece of modern science missing is chemistry. Making C4, for example, would be chemistry.

I don't really disagree with this, but like i said at the top, tekkit is a pack of well made mods. Not an attempt to recreate modern reality.

[VermillionX]

EE: we be haxing when you're not looking

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8988751/Game%20stuff/5345q3yy5e.gif

[Adlersch]

I said it deliberately does not have a specific theme.

Just gonna scooch this in here...

The theme of the pack has reflected a certain level of technicality. This should not be equated to technological.

Emphasis mine. The goal of the pack is to find quality mods that mesh well with the others - while this has, incidentally, equated to mods that are technical, it does not mean they are the theme on purpose. Regardless, technicality is the theme now, on purpose or not.

On-topic, this thread isn't really going anywhere. For EE, against EE, I don't care - rant and feel better I guess. No real solutions will be found here that haven't been discussed and turned down, so I fail to see the point of continuing with this thread.

Also, Sacrieur, your idea of a 'modern chemistry' mod fascinates me. I would love to see a modern chemistry-themed mod in Technic (Or just see one I could manually install), as long as it isn't too complex (As in, you can't use the real-world periodic table and minute measurements or I'm out). However, a (Somewhat) basic chemistry mod that can make unique items (Or simplify creation/make available creation of certain items, ie. mob drop only items) and break down created items into base forms would absolutely fascinate me!

Plus, if I could create vanilla (And new, from the chemistry mod maybe?) potions more easily without having to learn the (Vanilla) reagents and figure out the silly brewing stand, I would have a much more easy (And interesting) time - for some reason, memorizing elements and measurements is easier than memorizing reagents (ie. I can remember 3 mL of whatever, 5 mL of something else, and 2 grams of a third thing, but 2 spider eyes and a mushroom baffles me).

[Sacrieur]

Nothing so complicated as actual chemistry, that would just break the simple spirit of the game.

Potions, yes. But other things too, like fertilizers or even mob repellent.