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VermillionX

EE and Tekkit

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Falling into lava isn't even a problem if you've got a Ring of Ignition. Or a Volcanite Amulet. Or Infernal Armor (gem armor chestplate).

Yeah but that is quite hard to get.

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Yeah but that is quite hard to get.

The problem I think is that it really isn't...

I mean, I love EE, I actually find it really cool and fun, but the reality of it is that it's crazy overpowered.

Those items he's talking about, I made the first time I was playing with EE in less than a few days following the "getting started" tutorial; once you get a small array of Collectors/Relays it really get's faster exponentially and then you just leave an anchor and that's it, you'll soon have full Tier 3 Flowers that replicate themselves crazy fast.

The problem I think, which I believe it has been said here a million times over, is that it makes the other mods completely irrelevant; I mean, why should I bother learning IndustrialCraft or BuildCraft, when with EE I can transmutate ANYTHING from my 40+ fully charged Omegas?

I'm actually just starting learning those mods, just for the fun of seeing machines do their thing, because I know in reality they actually offer me NOTHING of value in term of resources.

Really, when I started playing my first tekkit server, I spend a few hours playing with ComputerCraft, making a lua script so that my turtle could build some custom width/length bridges, and I enjoyed the hell out of it; I was planning to make some more scripts for mining and stuff, but again, now that I can fly and have practically inexhaustible resources, why should I bother?

And that's having in mind that I like to think as myself as a really respectful player, because I could go out with my destruction catalyst and destroy the hell out of everything underground just for the hell of it, but again, why should I bother when my flowers produces more EMC than what I could EVER spend?

But I can definitely see how that could be a problem for pretty much any server with more unruly players.

I don't really care if EE gets removed from Tekkit or not, I actually like the mod and you CAN disable it or restrict it in your servers, so, whatever floats your boat, but please don't say it's not overpowered, because it most certainly is.

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Ok, this is an old discussion, we've had a new thread on this every couple days since it was added. (roughly every couple days, dont quote me on that)

There's 2 things we are dealing with here.

1. Is EE OP?

2. Should it be removed from tekkit?

I'll deal with the second first, cause its simpler.

Lets assume it is totally OP.

Should it be removed? Not our problem.

The people who make this pack make all the decisions on adding and removing mods from the pack.

As long as some people want it, which includes them, it stays.

It is up to each player, or server operator, to decide whether to use/allow EE.

Back to the first, is EE OP?

Obviously there are different parts of EE, so i am going to break the mod up into 3 sections and look at each one.

Transmutation: The use of the tablet, condenser and gem of eternal density/void ring.

These things let you turn anything(ok, admittedly not every single item, but 99% of the building blocks for everything are covered) into a universal currency called EMC. You can then turn the EMC back into any other item.

Why is this OP? Cause it destroys the game. Not completely, that's taken care of by the second part of EE, but it undoubtedly throws a major spike in gameplay.

Here's how it does that. Want a blaze rod? Transmute some diamonds. Want some bonemeal? Transmute some diamonds. Need a stack of iron? Transmute some diamonds.

Not, build a blaze spawner trap. Not, a auto collecting mob trap. Not, a fancy redpower quarry.(not gonna discuss the opness of BC quarries)

If you want any item at all, transmute some diamonds for it. (cept uranium, Go IC2 Dev Team!)

Instead of building an automatic machine for each and every type of item you want, you just need diamonds.

And look at that, we've just defeated the entire point of most of the mods.

Now, normally i would say, fine, let people do what they want, if i don't want to use it, i wont.

For single player, this works, each person is his own master.

But for servers, this is game breaking.

Servers let people play together, one persons decisions affect everybody on the server.

If one person uses EE, he can get huge numbers of ghast tears and sell them to other people.

Ghast tears are now worth only their emc value.

Not that there is a big use for ghast tears, but they are supposed to be hard to get.

The one person using EE changes the entire server mechanics.

Collection: Doing some self sustaining operation that gains emc with no input.

Collecters, relays, and every other emc farm out there.

Now this is just ridiculous. I dont care how expensive a mk3 collector is. The idea that i can exponentially grow my emc income with no input at all completely breaks gameplay. Any kind of exponential growth is inherently game breaking.

Power items: everything else.

I think the single most useful thing about EE is the bags, just my opinion, but they are just so darn useful.

All the ring, amulets and whatnot are not game breaking. Some of them are definitely OP, and dangerous, but no exponential growth, and no new mechanics. Just doing things faster and better. Thats up to each player/server.

Notes: I am a server operator, I spend lots of time trying to create a balanced environment. I welcome any thoughts on this, its my opinion and experience, not the law.

All and all, its a moots point, the tekkit devs know our opinions and are leaving it in anyway.

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honestly, what i'd like to see more is thaumcraft and mystcraft to come along and up the magic anti for the technical side of bc/rp/ic within tekkit. If the rates of collectors and emc values could be tweaked it would more than balance out EE as a magic vs tech battleground.

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Like someone else had pointed out before, stuff like the macerator(and extractor), may double things, but only to meet the demands of the mod. EE is really no different, most of the recipes are very expensive if you try making them through normal methods. Without things like energy collectors, most of the EE recipes would take forever to create, on top of the fact that you'd pretty much need to strip the server bare of all its resources, just to craft them, which would definitely have a negative impact on the server.

You should also keep in mind, many of the mods in the technic/tekkit pack have parts which can be easily exploited for little or nothing past the initial building costs, not to mention a few which could be considered just plain overpowered by themselves.

Coal Coke Oven - Despite taking a while to gather the resources to construct a few, its very inexpensive to make(sand and clay bricks), and once you've got a couple running, you can double your coals effectiveness with no cost(other then time) to you(not to mention make charcoal). If you want to exploit ICs macerator, all you'd need to do is build a generator and macerator, and youve doubled your ingot production without having to build ICs more expensive EU generation machines(solar panels, water mill, wind mill, or nuclear reactor).

Redstone Engine - I know its weak, but they are pretty inexpensive to make, and have pretty much no cost to run. Hookup enough of these with conductive pipes, and you can run pretty much any buildcraft machine(or forestry) with no real cost to you.

Gem Tools(ruby, sapphire, emerald) - Part of redpowered, and as far as i know, it serves no real purpose for its mod, other than to make mining easier with easy to find resources which are only slightly less effective then diamond tools. When i play Technic, i only make one iron pick(all game), to mine my first few gems, and then never use iron tools again, cause there is no point, gem tools are more effective, and easy enough to find(if there had simply been only one gem type, it would be rarer, and less overpowered). Ontop of that, i only make one diamond pick all game, cause all i need it for is to mine obsidian, once i have enough, i never have to use a diamond pick again, because its simply cheaper to use gem tools. The Gem tools essentially make IC, BC, and EE easier because you don't waste diamonds and other resources to make tools from.

The World Anchor/Dimensional Anchor - I was quite surprised to find that despite it being mentioned a couple of times in this thread, no one has actually said that the world/dimensional Anchor is overpowered. It can be used to run many things(IC, BC, EE, RP, forestry) while your not around, weather that be offline, or off gathering resources far in the distance. Without them, most of the things that are being complained about would be significant diminished problems. You wouldn't be able to run stuff like Solar panels, Quarries, Energy collectors all night while you were offline, and reap all the benefits.

These are just the first few i could think of off the top of my head, i know there are more. As several people have said before, you can always disable it for your server(or play a server that already has it disabled), play technic and not use it(or disable it), or better yet, just play vanilla minecraft if your that worried about things being overpowered.

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If you don't like EE; don't use it. If you own a server and don't want EE; remove it. If you are not the server owner and hate other people using it; go cry about it. Yes, it is OP, but some people like it. Why should we ruin their fun? If we are taking out over powered things we might as well take out IC2, because it has a machine made of iron, rocks and flint that can double any ore and it has a machine that can generate superman armour off of scrap and the sun. Don't even get me started on Nukes.

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If you don't like EE; don't use it. If you own a server and don't want EE; remove it. If you are not the server owner and hate other people using it; go cry about it. Yes, it is OP, but some people like it. Why should we ruin their fun? If we are taking out over powered things we might as well take out IC2, because it has a machine made of iron, rocks and flint that can double any ore and it has a machine that can generate superman armour off of scrap and the sun. Don't even get me started on Nukes.

The first excitable kid! Welcome. Go back to school, or better yet, read the rest of the thread before posting.

As Watchfull11 stated, if an entire server decides to not use EE, the one new guy who does ruins the game for the rest of the players.

Nukes are a waste of time, used for griefing and killing people. They're banned on most servers serving no point in a non-pvp environment.

As said, the Macerator doubles ingots to meet the demand of the Mod. EE generates items from nothing that aren't even related to the mod. Tin, Copper, Nicolite, silver, all of these aren't used in any part of EE except as fuel for transmutation. If EE was fair, it would limit transmutable items to blocks and some items, not everything. The ability to transmute lava buckets for example completely ignores the demand of it in IC2's geothermal generators. For little more than the cost of a bucket, you can create lava for a geothermal generator without the proper means of a pump, pipes and tanks. How many of you even knew those things existed in Tekkit before I said them? This defeats the purpose of the energy-hogging Lava Fabricator.

EE's transmutable item list should be limited to ingots (Not dust. Transmuting dust takes away Vanilla content.), the existing fuel items (except blaze rods) and building blocks. No tools, an alloy furnace can dismantle found tools and armor and being able to transmute whole tools removes the purpose of yet another vital item. Things like Ghast Tears, TNT, wool, wheat, bread, apples, porkchops, chickens, etc, are supposed to be worked for. Not say "Hey, i need some of those hard-to-get items right now." I'll turn nothing into them (< Creative Mode).

Can anyone here, opposing EE even give a proper answer to the following questions?

With EE, Why mine at all?

With EE, Why have a farm?

With EE, Why craft anything?

With EE, why gain levels?

With EE, why walk?

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The first excitable kid! Welcome. Go back to school, or better yet, read the rest of the thread before posting.

As Watchfull11 stated, if an entire server decides to not use EE, the one new guy who does ruins the game for the rest of the players.

Nukes are a waste of time, used for griefing and killing people. They're banned on most servers serving no point in a non-pvp environment.

As said, the Macerator doubles ingots to meet the demand of the Mod. EE generates items from nothing that aren't even related to the mod. Tin, Copper, Nicolite, silver, all of these aren't used in any part of EE except as fuel for transmutation. If EE was fair, it would limit transmutable items to blocks and some items, not everything. The ability to transmute lava buckets for example completely ignores the demand of it in IC2's geothermal generators. For little more than the cost of a bucket, you can create lava for a geothermal generator without the proper means of a pump, pipes and tanks. How many of you even knew those things existed in Tekkit before I said them? This defeats the purpose of the energy-hogging Lava Fabricator.

EE's transmutable item list should be limited to ingots (Not dust. Transmuting dust takes away Vanilla content.), the existing fuel items (except blaze rods) and building blocks. No tools, an alloy furnace can dismantle found tools and armor and being able to transmute whole tools removes the purpose of yet another vital item. Things like Ghast Tears, TNT, wool, wheat, bread, apples, porkchops, chickens, etc, are supposed to be worked for. Not say "Hey, i need some of those hard-to-get items right now." I'll turn nothing into them (< Creative Mode).

Can anyone here, opposing EE even give a proper answer to the following questions?

With EE, Why mine at all?

With EE, Why have a farm?

With EE, Why craft anything?

With EE, why gain levels?

With EE, why walk?

First of all, if an entire server decides not to use EE, then why doesn't the owner disable it? I mean if you can disable nukes, you can certainly disable most/all of EE. Some servers turn off the generators and machines and just allow people to craft the fuels and components for some of the magic items in EE. If you do not like it on the server and the owner agrees, that's fine,turn it off. If you want to keep it on and make sure nobody uses it, create rules on the server regarding EE. Asking the admins to Removing it from Tekkit just because some people don't like it, doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't like it. I personally do not use EE, but some people do. Why remove it when it could be there as an option? I find This thread is pretty much useless, EE is not going anywhere, sorry.

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With EE, Why mine at all?

With EE, Why have a farm?

With EE, Why craft anything?

With EE, why gain levels?

With EE, why walk?

Fine, I'll take the bait.

First question, With EE, why mine at all? Mining is the only way of getting the materials necessary for many parts of the game. With EE or without, you still need to make tools to get the ores necessary for many items. Once you have them, then you can start making things from the mods. Once you have EE mining tools like the destruction catalyst, it is an easier way to mine. It's also an easier way to collect items while mining. Ores need to be mined to make things, and if you think EE hinders or impedes mining, you are insane.

Second question, With EE, why have a farm? Well, having a farm is an easy to make and use resource of getting wheat for bread. Melons, pumpkins and sugarcane all have their uses, and are good sources of EMC. So for having a farm, you can and should still have one, because it is vital to grow crops for food or other things. You can also cross-breed using IC2, which makes farming all the more fun. With EE, you can make wheat, melons, etc., but it is easier and better to have an actual farm.

Third question, With EE, why craft anything? Part of the Minecraft's title is Craft, and it is a vital part of the game. Without it, you wouldn't be able to do anything besides chop wood, or dig dirt with your fists. If you want a detailed explanation of how crafting works, you can check here. You use crafting to make all of the items in the game and the mods. With or without EE, crafting would still be necessary. Yes, you can teach vanilla blocks and tools and some mod items to the transmutation table after you craft them. With this, you can just gather enough EMC to make one. Again, not everything has an EMC value, and not everything is able to be obtained in a transmutation table. And again, crafting is important, so you can take that argument and shove it back into your arse.

Fourth question, With EE, why gain levels? Alright then, I'll answer your question with another. With Tekkit, why gain levels? Tools and armors added by mods aren't enchantable. Once you have iron, you effectively move straight to gem tools. These can't be enchanted. When you reach diamonds, you should already have a chainsaw, or a mining drill, both of which can't be enchanted. Your question has no basis, as all tools and armors in Tekkit are not enchantable.

Fifth question, With EE, why walk? Well when you start, you have to walk to get around. With IC2, you can fly around, but not like the flying that SWRG gives you. Once you have SWRG, it is still essential to walk around, as flying can often lead to mishaps with lava. Once you have nano, you are essentially invincible to all natural forces. Flying would just be an easier way of moving around, as it is faster than walking on foot, because you can fly over all the hilly terrain. Sure you might not like that SWRG gives creative like flying, but some people like to have the ability to fly and not die, as is the case with buggy jetpacks. The ring also sucks up EMC, so if you don't have a klein star, or coal, or any other type of fuel then you won't be able to use it.

I have also noted that the OP seems pissy because they probably went on a PVP server and were killed by someone having some EE tools. They then went on to rage about it and tell you why it should be removed. He then tries to tell you that it infringes on other players, while in reality, forcing other people to not use EE infringes on other people's playstyles. He also calls everyone who disagrees with him an "excitable little kid," as that is probably what killed him on the aforementioned server. Getting rid of EE would not benefit anybody, as you can always remove it if you don't like to use it. Other people like to use the mod, and they have every right to.

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Snip Snip Snip and what above is snipped.

Tools are meant to be used then break.

Armor is meant to protect, not destroy.

Ores and Dust are meant to be smelted, not transmuted.

Mining is meant to be based on finding the right ores, not finding the most EMC.

Items and tools are meant to do just one thing. Not seven seperate things.

Tekkit was technology. Now it's magic.

Tekkit was balanced. Then came inequivalent exchange.

Snip Snip Snip and what below is snipped.

The quote above shocked me the most.

Tools are meant to be used then break?
I see, so why aren't you complaining about a diamond drill or a drill or any electric items from the IC2 mod.

Ore and Dust are meant to be smelted, not transmuted.
Transmuted not with magic, with science!

Mining is meant to be based on finding the right ores, not finding the most EMC.
I find this quote incorrect. You don't have the find the most EMC, you just have to find an ore that has a good value of EMC and is common to find.

Item and tools are meant to do just one thing. Not seven seperate things.
I see, so every armor is meant to make you look badass, instead of protecting you? Sounds legit.

Tekkit was technology. Now it's magic.
Science is magic, you cannot destroy a mass, you can only convert it. For example, you cannot destroy dirt, but you can convert it into EMC with a tranmutsionwhateveritspelled tablet or throw it in the lava to produce smoke.

Tekkit was balanced. Then came inequivalent exchange.
Uhh, how was it balanced? That is the question.

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As to Mooseman, I have never and will never play a PvP server. All your examples of my queries point to the first few days of any world (2 hours). It only takes 8 tin, 4 redstone, 4 glowstone dust and 1 diamond to change the game to easy mode/creative mode in that short time. If you don't know how to make easy mode with those items and EE, you aren't pro and don't use the original Tekkit mods as much as you should.

Also, in response to this thread, a certain person here (not naming names), took a destruction catalyst to the spawn town and my own personal town on the server I play a couple of hours ago. There's your excitable little kids. Pathetic and childish. In response, the majority of previously unbanned EE items are now banned there. If they were trying to prove a point, they proved mine.

Alchemy is not science. Not in the sense that it is in the real world. Alchemy is magic defined by science. Going under the assumption that trading one thing for another of equal value is fair. But is 8100 cobble really worth 1 diamond? Cobble is worth nothing to you and a diamond is worth everything. What about the energy needed to perform the transmutation? Changing mass to energy requires the expenditure of energy from a different source to fuel the change. (e.g. A man trading a melon for a pumpkin, the man must still stand in the freezing cold and haggle with the merchant for the price of the pumpkin)

I see, so every armor is meant to make you look badass, instead of protecting you? Sounds legit.

Armor's purpose isn't to make you look badass. That's it's physical appearance and what it's made of and has no value on it's defensive value. Otherwise armor would cost more depending on your texture pack.

I find this quote incorrect. You don't have the find the most EMC, you just have to find an ore that has a good value of EMC and is common to find.

That's the same thing.

I see, so why aren't you complaining about a diamond drill or a drill or any electric items from the IC2 mod.

They expend energy. Once they run out, they must be recharged, involving a long trek to the surface, they don't just disappear like a broken tool, they take up inventory space, which could be worse than breaking. Especially since they consume huge amounts of power, you'll need to travel between mine and surface continuously without a batpack/lap pack, taking up an armor slot where you'd wear your nano/quantum armor if you were to wear one. Reducing your defensive value and leaving you open to damage should you break into a lava chamber.

Uhh, how was it balanced? That is the question.

The demand of items matched the acquirement rate. Where rare items were rare and diamonds were worth something. You had to work to obtain items, instead of rigging up a simple machine to make them for you.

Is there a difference between Creative Mode and an EMC generator creating every item in infinite amounts?

Even those without emc values can be made by cycling the materials out of a condenser into automatic crafting tables to craft them.

This is no troll. I'm serious.

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VermilionX is obviously just a troll, I say let this thread die.

Well, after reading VermillionX's latest post, I have to say I agree. He is obviously just a massive troll, ignoring most points of everyone's arguments. Well, my argument really. Let the thread die, and don't feed the troll any longer.

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I'm no troll. I won't let this thread die.

So what are you gonna do about it? Cry about it like someone above suggested?

Better yet, Follow your own advice: If you don't like it, don't read it.

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HEY MOM, COME HERE! LOOK WHAT HE WROTE! THEY'RE SAYING MEAN WORDS TO ME ON THE INTERNET! MY VIRTUAL LEGOS ARE BEING DESTROYED!!! MOM?! Where are you?

Well, I have to say, great effort on the troll post, but virtual legos are not something to cry over. Please VermillionX, wipe your sweaty tears off the computer and go play some virtual legos with your virtual 'friends.' Be sure to get some sleep soon, you're starting 6th 8th grade tomorrow.

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Actually, i'm 23 and i'm a concept designer for WETA Digital. Your insults and trolling are in direct violation of the Tekkit Board rules, expect punitive action.

:o, I'm 23! Instead of getting a job and making good money! I'm just being a retarded person trolling on the internet WHILE BEING ANNOYMOUS. MAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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woah woah woah, i thought most of this thread was good reading, till everybody started yelling.

The topic of balance in a game is always worthy of discussion. That's what a forum is for, discussing things, and yelling at newbs.

If you don't want to discuss balance in a game, then don't, don't go and tell other people not to.

On topic,

Looking at EE from a high level, i see this.

EE adds complete elements to the game that no other mod does.

Macerating is very very different from transmuting. One ore gets you 2 bars, instead of 1. Nothing about turning pumpkins into iron. The concept of transmuting is found in a few other mods, ic2's uu matter for example, but no where near as powerfully.

EE's transmuting allows anything to be turned into anything, and back and forth however much you want.

Collectors let you get energy from nothing, with no effort, and take up very little space.

I guess this is the important thing with this. It is possible to make a sugar cane farm that takes no effort to run. But for each block, how much emc do you get per hour? a fraction the amount of a collector flower. If you want you can make a bigger cane farm, but there are limits. You will lag the server out before you get the emc rate of a few mk3 flowers.

And the problem is, you can use the emc you make with the flower to directly make more flowers.

Thoughts?

Are there any reasonable people left here who want to discuss?

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Personally, I really enjoy my EE. My arguments for it being useful have already been said by others, and I honestly cannot think of any other way to explain it. I am actually opposed to collectors and such, because honestly they turn the game into Farmville, simply set up the system and wait. Now, something that I think may work for balancing, is perhaps an energy loss on transmuting. For example, a diamond will still cost 8,192 EMC to create, but burning it in the tablet will only net you, say, 6,000 or 7,000. Maybe you need to splurge a bit and spend more that obsidian to create more efficient tablets, much like crucibles from thaumcraft. Sure, it's unlikely that this will ever be implemented, but just putting it out there.

Now, earlier in the thread somebody said that building pretty things belongs not on survival, but on creative. I disagree, simply because at some point, building pretty things is all there is to do. Once you have created your reactor and are pumping out UU-Matter like crazy, what do you do? Either you get bored, or you begin creating your massive laboratory. Once you have researched everything there is to research in Thaumcraft, what do you do? You build something pretty. Once you have tamed all the animals, explored every dimension, quarried the oceans and used oceans of fuel, what do you do? Once you have slaved away in the mines, created your eye of enders, found a stronghold, and brought the dragon to its heels in vanilla, what do you do? You either abandon the world, or you build something pretty.

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This was intended as a discussion/debate. Not a flamefest or a demand for the tekkit devs. It's those excitable kids that always have to make it personal whenever something threatens to disrupt their routine.

^ In any case, that's the problem right there. The collector flowers. Turning matter into energy is fair to a degree, but turning free energy into matter, then into energy-making matter is just a no-no.

By itself, without Tekkit, EE is a self-contained mod that IS relatively balanced in a vanilla environment. But when you add BuildCraft's/RedPower's automation and pipes, it instantly becomes a compact gamebreaking machine with a recipe for creative mode. (Note: I expect some trolls to yell "Remove BuildCraft then! Leave EE alone!" shortly after reading this statement. As they always do.)

Macerating is very very different from transmuting. One ore gets you 2 bars, instead of 1. Nothing about turning pumpkins into iron. The concept of transmuting is found in a few other mods, ic2's uu matter for example, but no where near as powerfully.

EE's transmuting allows anything to be turned into anything, and back and forth however much you want.

Exactly. Who decided the EMC value of a pumpkin? It's self-replenishing, easily harvested and easily mass-planted into vanilla autofarms, yet was give an EMC value more than half that of an iron ingot. As far as i've seen, the existing emc values were intended to work with Vanilla Minecraft and have not been adjusted to compensate with the items and blocks added by Tekkit.

The values themselves are a serious problem, as well as the speed at which a transmutation between matter and energy occurs. Why does a condenser use no fuel to operate and dismantles/constructs objects instantly? It would be nice if a compatibility mod was created to smooth over the inconsistencies between Tekkit's existing mods and EE, but that would be wishful thinking. Something along the lines of a condenser creating/dismantling extremely slowly, but can be accelerated by connecting up IC2 cables and supplying EU at a similar rate as one would a mass fabricator. That alone would reduce EE's OPness in concert with Tekkit's other primary mods. A similar function occuring with transmuting with a tablet, where EMC penalties are applied as an unpowered tablet doubles the cost to create, with additional EU charge applied to the tablet reduces the EMC penalty. Where the tablet and condenser GUI has an EU meter on the side and sticking in batteries will charge them.

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woah woah woah, i thought most of this thread was good reading, till everybody started yelling.

RANDOM ARGUMENT HERE THAT IS SEMI UNINPORTANT FOR THIS QUOTE!

Thoughts?

Are there any reasonable people left here who want to discuss?

i am reasonable, well semi reasonable. (add evil face here)

the only reason i dont like collectors is how god dam fast they are. i know i have said this before but i am just restating me point but i think it went under the radar.

Single player collectors are good and damn helpful, they are not on for 24hours when they make like 25million (charge an omega star) but public servers they are just as good as asking a moderator for a stack of 20 diamonds, one for each hour this server was online....

I am making (just finished) a cake farm, all without EE or EMC in anyway, one of the other players on my server finished it in 1 hour mine took 1 day (if i put in hard work to it) EE can make mass production too easy.

I Really love the rings, they can make stuff ALL the more fun, the harvest band in my farm works wonders! SWIFT WOLF I LOVE THE.

and the black hole dupe glitch :P

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It's actually very likely that the values were meant for vanilla, and the values of things such as tin, silver, and other mod items were added as an afterthought. After all, if EE was made to be balanced with Technic, slime balls would probably be more expensive for thaumcraft, blazes would be more expensive for IE (Uranium too), coal would be more expensive for everything that uses coal, you get the idea. If some talented modder spent some of his own hard earned time, they could probably balance it well. However, I don't mod, I assume you don't mod, so somebody else would have to be dedicated enough to do it.

Your thought of using EU to power EE things to make them work better is interesting, but it doesn't really work for me, mostly because of solar panels, water mills, hell even a normal generator would be able to turn a profit if the eu consumption was low enough.

Honestly, the problem lies in the very name, equivalent exchange. Minecraft and, more on subject, Technic, aren't truly about equivalent exchange. Not truly equivalent, anyway. The problem lies in that every other mod requires a lot, or at least a fair amount, of effort when trying to make something into something else. Industrial craft lets you change items into scrap, with a low loss rate, to make it easier to get UU Matter, which still has a high cost, to get diamonds eventually. Thaumcraft lets you burn items in a crucible to create vis, which almost always results in you losing part of the value of the item in taint. Then, you can use that magic pink liquid to create a diamond for 5 times the amount you will get if you burn it again. Quarries let you change one thing into another, in a way. Changing fuel/coal/emc/vis into an unstoppable mining force. The point is, Technic is based a lot on in-equivalent exchange, throwing EE into the mixing pot as it is messes that up. Does it have its place in the pack? Yes. Do I think it should be tweaked? Definitely.

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Another problem I have is that people I meet have next to no knowledge of anything other than basic IC2 machines and the obvious : Equivalent Exchange.

Yes, people are entitled to play the game how they want.

Yes, server owners can just disable the damn thing.

But too many people just aren't experiencing what Tekkit has to offer, and that annoys me.

To not have built any RedPower logic is one thing, to not have even build any RedPower machines is beyond me.

Many have not built any pipes from any mod whatsoever.

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