EE and Tekkit

[Danzarlo]

im sorry but i just have to say this first i love EE but with world anchors or what ever its called it can be op, yet i see no one has mentioned the fact you could set a wireless turtle to mine out huge area's or a couple of them and stick a world anchor down considering they cost a hell of alot less than a simple transmutation table, also quarry's are cheap and are automatic i don't see anyone complaing about them even though you can place a couple with world anchors and your set to go, all ive seen is people complaining about EE but in fact there are alot of op ways to find/make diamonds in tekkit and if you were a pro like some of you have been claiming then you would know this and to be honest quantum Armour pretty much trumps redmatter anyday

[Adlersch]

im sorry but i just have to say this first i love EE but with world anchors or what ever its called it can be op, yet i see no one has mentioned the fact you could set a wireless turtle to mine out huge area's or a couple of them and stick a world anchor down considering they cost a hell of alot less than a simple transmutation table, also quarry's are cheap and are automatic i don't see anyone complaing about them even though you can place a couple with world anchors and your set to go, all ive seen is people complaining about EE but in fact there are alot of op ways to find/make diamonds in tekkit and if you were a pro like some of you have been claiming then you would know this and to be honest quantum Armour pretty much trumps redmatter anyday

I appreciate that you're on-topic, but the topic has changed since then. I appreciate your input nonetheless, however. :)

[GreenWolf13]

I'm just gonna pop in jere real quick. If you watch Direwolf20's SMP let's play, where he plays with the mod authors, Pahimar, the developer of EE, admits that EE is overpowered, which is one of the reasons that it is not one of the mods installed on their server. He also says that EE3 will be focused mostly on balance. It is currently confirmed that SWRG (the flying ring) wil be removed, and the philosopher's stone will be MUCH harder to attain, and will be changed drastically.

Also, EE gives you Creative+ Mode. When Duncan was building his castle in his let's play, many people thought he was using creative mode.

Many powers granted by EE power items aren't available to server owners! you can summon lightning, deflect arrows, transmute mobs, launch mobs into the air, change the weather, fly, become immune to lava and drowning, and many more powers. without plugins, a server owner without EE power items can do only one thing players with EE power items, the /ban (or /kick) command.

[warpspeed10]

Many powers granted by EE power items aren't available to server owners! You can deflect arrows, launch mobs into the air, and many more powers. with the most basic plugins, a server owner without EE power items can do most things that players with EE power items can, including the /ban (or /kick) command.

I fixed it for you. Sorry, but a lot of these features come with the default server package, as well as Essentials.

[GreenWolf13]

we both know that I play on a sercer that doesn't use plugins. The fact remains that EE grants you powers above and beyond normal creative mode. Whenever I do a large build in my test world, I spawn myself in a SWRG, a mercurial eye, and a destruction catalyst, because they make building much easier. i use the SWRG instead of creative inventory because i can use my survival inventory (36 slots) instead of the 9 slot hotbar in creative mode. and you neglected the fact that the developer of EE says that his own mod is overpowered.

EE is overpowered. 'Nuff said.

[Adlersch]

we both know that I play on a sercer that doesn't use plugins. The fact remains that EE grants you powers above and beyond normal creative mode. Whenever I do a large build in my test world, I spawn myself in a SWRG, a mercurial eye, and a destruction catalyst, because they make building much easier. i use the SWRG instead of creative inventory because i can use my survival inventory (36 slots) instead of the 9 slot hotbar in creative mode. and you neglected the fact that the developer of EE says that his own mod is overpowered.

EE is overpowered. 'Nuff said.

Lemme just bullet list this...

• Even if he does know you don't use plugins (Although they come default with Tekkit), I don't.
  
• He wasn't saying EE isn't overpowered. He was just correcting your mistakes - as he said, a lot of those features do come with the default server package.
  
• He neglected to mention Pahimar said EE is overpowered because he wasn't disagreeing with you - just, as I said, and as he said, fixing it for you.
  

As for the hostility, I may not be a mod, or have any power whatsoever, but I find it distasteful. As a personal request, can we please have friendly discourse (Whether it's 'EE: OP or not?,' or any other subject)?

[Watchful11]

As for the hostility, I may not be a mod, or have any power whatsoever, but I find it distasteful. As a personal request, can we please have friendly discourse (Whether it's 'EE: OP or not?,' or any other subject)?

Second this. There is nothing at all to be gained by hostility on an internet forum. Everybody benefits from reasonable discussion.

we both know that I play on a sercer that doesn't use plugins. The fact remains that EE grants you powers above and beyond normal creative mode. Whenever I do a large build in my test world, I spawn myself in a SWRG, a mercurial eye, and a destruction catalyst, because they make building much easier. i use the SWRG instead of creative inventory because i can use my survival inventory (36 slots) instead of the 9 slot hotbar in creative mode. and you neglected the fact that the developer of EE says that his own mod is overpowered.

EE is overpowered. 'Nuff said.

See, here's the problem with what you said. You use hardly any accepted facts. Actually, the only relevant fact is that "the developer of EE says that his own mod is overpowered." Everything else is either your opinion or a fact about your opinion.

You simply say all these things, then state your conclusion.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do agree with you, EE is overpowered, but some logical statements about how it is overpowered would go a long way to proving your point.

[GreenWolf13]

I didn't intend my comments to be hostile. I was stating my opinion about why I don't like EE (on a survival server). I was also stating that the mod is overpowered. If you want facts, here they are:

•Pahimar, the developer of Equivalent Exchange 2 has stated that Equivalent Exchange 2 is overpowered

•Pahimar has stated that Equivalent Exchange 3 will mostly be about balance

•Equivalent Exchange 2 power items grant abilities above and beyond Creative Mode

•Equivalent Exchange 2 Energy Collectors and "Power Flowers" create EMC out of nothing, and create EMC faster depending on light level

•A "Power Flower" can replicate itself at an exponetial rate

•Equivalent Exchange 2 power items can be used for griefing, as they bypass protection plugins (and require another plugin or a patch to the existing plugin to counteract)

•Equivalent Exchange 2 tools never break and require no recharging or fuel (some special features of tools do require fuel, but the defualt behavior [a pickaxe breaking one block of stone for example] does not)

In closing, my assement of Equivalent Exchange 2 is this:

The core idea of Equivalent Exchange 2 (transmuting items into other items of equal value) is great, but it us poorly implemented, and the power items make finding and obtaining high value items too easy, while collectors make it possible to generate items out of nothing. On its own, Equivalent Exchange 2 is a great mod, but when inplemented into a modpack "as is" (without changing EMC values, no items disabled [all things that can be done in the configuration files, requiring no tinkering with the source]) Equivalent Exchange 2 becomes game breaking, rendering aspects of many mods obsolete or pointless. Why build a computer controlled flying quarry using Red Power 2 if you can make items out of nothing? In short, Equivalent Exchange 2 does not belong in a modpack unless it undergoes massive changes (which may be coming in Equivalent Exchange 3) by either the developer or by modpack makers.

[Mageleon3860]

i will 100% agree with the Original post

EE is live the most over powered mod in tekkit and should be removed but i think we should wait till EE3 and see what happens because Pahima did say it will be balanced which i hope but i doubt.

EVERYTHING is overpowered in the mod in my opinion only thing i do use is the Stone but just for the crafting table.

in the next update, if it is still stupidly overpowered im gonna switch EE for forestry like i have atm because forestry has so much more to offer instead of just condensing or transmuting everything.

Edit: i just saw someone moaning about Thaumcraft saying its OP.

its not OP what so ever, the only thing you can duplicate is raw materials which is barely worth anything and if you did do something wrong in the mod it will create taint witch is kinda tricky to fight of :S

[Watchful11]

I didn't intend my comments to be hostile. I was stating my opinion about why I don't like EE (on a survival server).

Well, I don't know about Adlersch, but I didn't think your comments were hostile. I was merely agreeing with Adlersch.

Ok, I'm using "facts" a bit loosely here to imply facts that prove EE is OP. I am human is a fact, but its not relevant to the discussion.

I was also stating that the mod is overpowered. If you want facts, here they are:

•Pahimar, the developer of Equivalent Exchange 2 has stated that Equivalent Exchange 2 is overpowered

While this doesn't actually prove anything, we can consider Pahimar an expert on the mod and accept his opinion.

However, this does nothing to say how it is overpowered.

•Pahimar has stated that Equivalent Exchange 3 will mostly be about balance

This doesn't prove anything and at most is a restatement of the above.

•Equivalent Exchange 2 power items grant abilities above and beyond Creative Mode

This is not a fact. This is your opinion.

EE does allow access to many powers that are different than creative. Some could be considered above and beyond creative.

However, creative mode grants instant and unlimited access to all(well, most) items and blocks. Even with huge amounts of EMC you cant just pull out 30 Morningstars in 5 seconds with no effort.

EE allows you to get powers that you cant get just in creative.

•Equivalent Exchange 2 Energy Collectors and "Power Flowers" create EMC out of nothing, and create EMC faster depending on light level

Here is a good fact. Energy collectors and "Power Flowers" do create EMC out of nothing. I completely agree with you on this one.

This is one of the things I consider OP in EE.(Note, this is my opinion, but I believe I could prove the point)

•A "Power Flower" can replicate itself at an exponetial rate

Technically not. The player can use the EMC to replicate the power flower at an exponential rate. But close enough.

This is kind of a sub point to the above. You could use a sugar cane farm and condensers to exponentially expand the sugar cane farm.

•Equivalent Exchange 2 power items can be used for griefing, as they bypass protection plugins (and require another plugin or a patch to the existing plugin to counteract)

While this is a fact, it is not really relevant to whether EE is OP.

Until recently the mining laser's explosive mode bypassed protection plugins. But that doesn't make IC2 OP.

This is actually not even EE's fault. It is due to improper porting by cpw that he hasn't had time to fix.

•Equivalent Exchange 2 tools never break and require no recharging or fuel (some special features of tools do require fuel, but the defualt behavior [a pickaxe breaking one block of stone for example] does not)

Fact. However, I consider this minor and actually more useful than unbalancing.(Again, my opinion. But making them take a bit of klien star fuel would hardly change the balance at all)

In closing, my assement of Equivalent Exchange 2 is this:

The core idea of Equivalent Exchange 2 (transmuting items into other items of equal value) is great, but it us poory imemented,

I don't have any facts on this, but I think transmuting is completely game breaking. See my posts on the topic earlier in this thread. Also on what Pahimar is doing about it.

and the power items make finding and obtaining high value items too easy, while collectors make it possible to generate items out of nothing. On its own, Equivalent Exchange 2 is a great mod, but when inplemented into a modpack "as is" (without changing EMC values, no items disabled [all things that can be done in the configuration files, requiring no tinkering with the source]) Equivalent Exchange 2 becomes game breaking,

First, last i checked you can't change EMC values in the config.

Second, most of this is your opinion. My opinion says that EE is OP on its own.

rendering aspects of many mods obsolete or pointless. Why build a conputer controlled flying quarry using Red Power 2 if you can make items out of nothing?

While you didn't exactly back this up with facts, I completely agree. EE completely nullifies the helpfulness of many many cleverly implemented machines/techniques in the other mods.

In short, Equivalent Exchange 2 does not belong in a modpack unless it undergoes massive changes (which may be coming in Equivalent Exchange 3) by either the developer or by modpack makers.

I know you're saying this as a summary to your whole post, but you didn't say any facts about why it doesn't belong. For instance, you could have given some examples on how it breaks multiplayer economies, or you could have given some statistics on how people get bored to easily compared to when EE isn't on a server.

Note: Grammar and spelling go a long way towards credibility. I'm no grammar nazi, I'm not complaining. But if you take the time to use proper grammar and spelling it makes you seem like you know what your talking about.

[GreenWolf13]

Where did i not use proper spelling and grammar? Also, the last paragraph was meant to be my opinion, based on the facts provided above. It was not meant to be taken as fact. As for statistics, I didn't have any available (I'm also on a phone, so tabbing out to pull up statistics is impractical/impossible, depending on whether the page decides to reload or not while I'm tabbed out). When I'm back home (I'm currently traveling) at my computer, I'll post a long list of reasons, supported by facts and expert opinion, about Equivalent Exchange 2 and why it is over powered, and give an opinion on what should be done about that. I enjoyed reading your counter-arguement, as it is always enjoyable to engage in an intelligent debate with intelligent, civilised people.

[thevortex]

Another problem I have is that people I meet have next to no knowledge of anything other than basic IC2 machines and the obvious : Equivalent Exchange.

Yes, people are entitled to play the game how they want.

Yes, server owners can just disable the damn thing.

But too many people just aren't experiencing what Tekkit has to offer, and that annoys me.

To not have built any RedPower logic is one thing, to not have even build any RedPower machines is beyond me.

Many have not built any pipes from any mod whatsoever.

i was in this boat, marvelling at the incredibly complicated sorting setup i had created using buildcraft, watched a few yogscast vids and realized i was .... doing. .... it.... wrong.... redpower is so much more powerful for the setup i was going for, required a complete teardown and do-over , but i learned a lot about another part of the pack, and am happier for it, (P.S. i have EE disabled on my server) there is so much to tekkit that getting immersed in just one aspect of it is entirely too easy , I would like to have EE back to placate some players, but on the other hand, i would like to see it more balanced before i do so , just my $0.02 thanks for listening

[Watchful11]

Where did i not use proper spelling and grammar?

Exponential, default, assessment, implemented. But I didn't know you were on your phone, so spelling mistakes are to be expected.

Also, the last paragraph was meant to be my opinion, based on the facts provided above. It was not meant to be taken as fact.

Yeah, but i didn't see any facts that backed up what you said in the last paragraph. You gave some arguments on how it was OP, then concluded that it didn't belong in a modpack.

As for statistics, I didn't have any available

Well, not just statistics, but references to other people's experiences and arguments.

(I'm also on a phone, so tabbing out to pull up statistics is impractical/impossible, depending on whether the page decides to reload or not while I'm tabbed out). When I'm back home (I'm currently traveling) at my computer, I'll post a long list of reasons, supported by facts and expert opinion, about Equivalent Exchange 2 and why it is over powered, and give an opinion on what should be done about that.

I look forward to it.

I enjoyed reading your counter-arguement, as it is always enjoyable to engage in an intelligent debate with intelligent, civilised people.

Same.

[Riney]

I saw this thread and I am jumping in on this immediately.

When trying to run a server, EE has to be removed entirely or edited to be fair with the other mods, SO THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PLAY THE OTHER MODS.

Key point: You leave EE in the game, endgame IS EE. Not Industrial Craft, not Railcraft, not Buildcraft, just lolEEasymode. EE is currently ruining other servers because players are forced to use the mod in the end if they expect to get anything done. Else they become a laughing stock by the others who actively pursue EE devices, and general trash talking occurs. Honestly, its mostly the fact that EE attracts idiots and assholes to it makes it the mod I NEVER want to touch.

If the creative mode ring actually used some sort of energy, Im sure things would be fine. If the 'gem' armor didnt have absurd godmode powers, things also probably would be fine. But unless you completely remove them as stated, any style PvP server is ruined, and anyone who wants to pursue other mods quickly gets overshadowed by EE. I understand that EE3 is supposedly coming, and offers much needed balances, but how do we even know they'll be good for Tekkit still?

Im not saying remove it, sure its nice to bridge the gap between science and creation with a little magic. A little. Something needs to be done to make sure EE doesnt become the Endgame, only an option.

[thevortex]

I saw this thread and I am jumping in on this immediately.

When trying to run a server, EE has to be removed entirely or edited to be fair with the other mods, SO THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PLAY THE OTHER MODS.

Key point: You leave EE in the game, endgame IS EE. Not Industrial Craft, not Railcraft, not Buildcraft, just lolEEasymode. EE is currently ruining other servers because players are forced to use the mod in the end if they expect to get anything done. Else they become a laughing stock by the others who actively pursue EE devices, and general trash talking occurs. Honestly, its mostly the fact that EE attracts idiots and assholes to it makes it the mod I NEVER want to touch.

If the creative mode ring actually used some sort of energy, Im sure things would be fine. If the 'gem' armor didnt have absurd godmode powers, things also probably would be fine. But unless you completely remove them as stated, any style PvP server is ruined, and anyone who wants to pursue other mods quickly gets overshadowed by EE. I understand that EE3 is supposedly coming, and offers much needed balances, but how do we even know they'll be good for Tekkit still?

Im not saying remove it, sure its nice to bridge the gap between science and creation with a little magic. A little. Something needs to be done to make sure EE doesnt become the Endgame, only an option.

well said, the prescence of one asshat on the server causes it to become an arms race just to keep things balanced. doesnt make it fun for anyone interested in just playing :)

[Watchful11]

I'm going to give this the same treatment i gave Greenwolf13's post, lets see if you can respond as well as he did.

I saw this thread and I am jumping in on this immediately.

Bad idea. There are a number of reasonable, and unreasonable, arguments in this thread. Jumping in without reading all of it just means you will repeat all the same arguments that previous people did.

When trying to run a server, EE has to be removed entirely or edited to be fair with the other mods, SO THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PLAY THE OTHER MODS.

This is your opinion. We have plenty of people offering their opinions. We know some people don't like it and some people do.

Try to prove why it should be removed or not.

Key point: You leave EE in the game, endgame IS EE. Not Industrial Craft, not Railcraft, not Buildcraft, just lolEEasymode.

Opinion. My opinion disagrees, can you prove that?

EE is currently ruining other servers because players are forced to use the mod in the end if they expect to get anything done.

What servers? Do you have any sources? Other than your opinion.

Else they become a laughing stock by the others who actively pursue EE devices, and general trash talking occurs. Honestly, its mostly the fact that EE attracts idiots and assholes to it makes it the mod I NEVER want to touch.

Opinion again. How do you know this? Prove it.

If the creative mode ring actually used some sort of energy, Im sure things would be fine.

Actually, it does use energy, and it isn't fine. Do your research.

If the 'gem' armor didnt have absurd godmode powers, things also probably would be fine. But unless you completely remove them as stated, any style PvP server is ruined, and anyone who wants to pursue other mods quickly gets overshadowed by EE.

It is my opinion that none of the major mods are intended for PvP. If you want a PvP server you will have to do a fair amount of balancing.(my opinion, not fact. I welcome counter arguments to this)

I understand that EE3 is supposedly coming, and offers much needed balances, but how do we even know they'll be good for Tekkit still?

EE3 is coming, that's a fact. Unless pahimar dies or something.

I really have no idea exactly what changes it will have. We will see how it fits in.

Im not saying remove it, sure its nice to bridge the gap between science and creation with a little magic. A little. Something needs to be done to make sure EE doesnt become the Endgame, only an option.

Ah, here is a correct application of opinion. The only statement in there is that something needs to be done, which I think we all agree on.

Note: None of what i said means I specifically disagree with you. I'm just saying you proved absolutely nothing.

[GreenWolf13]

In fact, even if Pahimar dies, Equivalent Exchange development would continue, as the original developer of the mod (x3n0ph0b3 [think I spelled it right, but I could be wrong, as he spells it weird]) would take over developement. Developement would be significantly delayed though.

[Sacrieur]

I just thought of a use for a Chemistry mod that would work as an add-in for IC and replace existing functionality. The whole charcoal into coal thing is mildly important because it turns coal into a renewable resource, but at the same time, current EE functionality makes it tad too easy.

Instead consider a way to create your own coal. After all, coal is a fossil fuel and is created from plants, originally.

Consider first how coal is made. Decaying plant matter is turned into peat, which is then compressed and over time turned into ignite; finally, further compression turns it into anthracite, or as we know it, coal. These functions can be replicated by IC.

First, plant matter would have to be broken down using a macerator into biomass (this is similar to forestry, I know), and then this biomass would have to be put in some machine, possibly a new one, or something, to be turned into peat. Peat can be put into a compressor to be turned into ignite (a brown coal, replace coal ore closer to the surface with this?). And then run it through the compressor once more to become coal (alternatively mined ignite could be compressed into coal -- consider it a lower grade coal).

I think maybe the peat process would be fixed with Forestry, and it's a damn shame it's not apart of the modpack anymore. But this could work.

[The_DarthMoogle]

I think maybe the peat process would be fixed with Forestry, and it's a damn shame it's not apart of the modpack anymore. But this could work.

While that is true, your idea is pretty cool. To the mod request forum!

As for everyone else, can't we agree to disagree that EE2 will never be removed from the pack?

People can play the game how they damn want.

And if server owners find it a problem (like me), then they can consult their playerbase and have it removed if necessary.

As for EE3, if it is found to be of enough of a standard (as if it could ever be anything else), then we'll see that in the pack instead.

Stop whining, people.

Moogle out.

[Adlersch]

While that is true, your idea is pretty cool. To the mod request forum!

As for everyone else, can't we agree to disagree that EE2 will never be removed from the pack?

People can play the game how they damn want.

And if server owners find it a problem (like me), then they can consult their playerbase and have it removed if necessary.

As for EE3, if it is found to be of enough of a standard (as if it could ever be anything else), then we'll see that in the pack instead.

Stop whining, people.

Moogle out.

Hurrah, someone puts an end to the childish argument and shows some maturity.

Sacrieur, a good bit of what I'd like to see is a macerator using charcoal to make coal dust - sure, they're not the same. Nor do they have the same properties in reality - but in Minecraft charcoal is a clone of coal except in name. I'd love to be able to make my solar panels out of it.

[Xylord]

Hurrah, someone puts an end to the childish argument and shows some maturity.

Sacrieur, a good bit of what I'd like to see is a macerator using charcoal to make coal dust - sure, they're not the same. Nor do they have the same properties in reality - but in Minecraft charcoal is a clone of coal except in name. I'd love to be able to make my solar panels out of it.

That would make solar panels factories a lot easier to automate too.

[andrewdonshik]

Hurrah, someone puts an end to the childish argument and shows some maturity.

Sacrieur, a good bit of what I'd like to see is a macerator using charcoal to make coal dust - sure, they're not the same. Nor do they have the same properties in reality - but in Minecraft charcoal is a clone of coal except in name. I'd love to be able to make my solar panels out of it.

I'm guessing you would like the charcoal dust mod.

[Watchful11]

As for everyone else, can't we agree to disagree that EE2 will never be removed from the pack?

People can play the game how they damn want.

And if server owners find it a problem (like me), then they can consult their playerbase and have it removed if necessary.

As for EE3, if it is found to be of enough of a standard (as if it could ever be anything else), then we'll see that in the pack instead.

Stop whining, people.

Moogle out.

I agree that people can play the game how they want, and that none of this will change whether it is in the mod pack or not.

But, I happen to enjoy a good debate, and this is as good a topic as ever. There seem to be an endless flow of people who think I'm wrong, and that makes it worth debating.

(Note: Debating whether, and how, EE is OP, not whether it should be removed from the pack)

[Soulsbane96]

JAlso, Sacrieur, your idea of a 'modern chemistry' mod fascinates me. I would love to see a modern chemistry-themed mod in Technic (Or just see one I could manually install), as long as it isn't too complex (As in, you can't use the real-world periodic table and minute measurements or I'm out). However, a (Somewhat) basic chemistry mod that can make unique items (Or simplify creation/make available creation of certain items, ie. mob drop only items) and break down created items into base forms would absolutely fascinate me!

Found this while browsing MCForums, its called MineChem and seems like quite the well done chemistry mod from a cursory glance (I'm leaving soon so cant really read the post atm)

Not sure about making the vanilla potions and items but theres a chance.

its also forge and 1.2.5 compatible

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1359575-132-minechem-v17-for-mc-132-by-ljdp-870-total-downloads/

[NIxeu42]

Jesus. This arguement is bloody huge. I had intended to read all of it, but then I looked at the size of most of the posts, so be warned, I may be repeating points that others have made.

EE can be used well, and not abused. I use it, for the most part, to get minor materials I need, or ones that are annoying to get in large amounts, like sticky resin or feathers. I also use it for making EE items. I don't just dump all my materials into a condenser to make diamond, mostly because I find it annoying to have to use a condenser all the time while making stuff. I find, to me at least, that what attracts me to tekkit is creating machines, or set-ups to do various things. Which is why anyone who wants to can feel free to skip using any other mod and use EE. Their loss, if they want to do things the boring way. I'll be over in my giant tower made of mushrooms designing a blimp that actually moves, complete with bar, cannons, etc. Then again, I play on a private server, so I might just be out of touch with how annoying EE is.

Even those without emc values can be made by cycling the materials out of a condenser into automatic crafting tables to craft them.

Mushroom blocks. You can't get them any way but by hand, can't condense them. You can condense mushrooms, but you still need to hand harvest them. Other things you can only get by hand: Coffee beans, Hops, and Terra wart.