Curse and FTB partner

[Mooseman9]

Company contracts person/people who can help them complete a task.

Heh, like that time when FTB became a company and I said that Slowpoke shouldn't make a profit from it but got yelled at to not jump to conclusions and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

And yet here we are.

and God help us if any modder decided to start modding to make a profit.

Some have done exactly that, though.

[dwwojcik]

Some have done exactly that, though.

I don't mean making mods on commission, by the way. I think that's entirely fair- it's like paying someone to paint a painting or something.

I can't imagine making a mod for any reason other than it would be fun to play with.

[Ashzification]

Heh, like that time when FTB became a company and I said that Slowpoke shouldn't make a profit from it but got yelled at to not jump to conclusions and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

And yet here we are.

FTB becoming a company, and FTB partnering with Curse are two completely different things.

Slowpoke isn't making money off of the mod developers, or even the mod pack developers. Any money he's making from the FTB name is rightfully his to keep. Feed the Beast is a map he created. That creation turned into more, but that name is still his.

[freakachu]

FTB becoming a company, and FTB partnering with Curse are two completely different things.

Slowpoke isn't making money off of the mod developers, or even the mod pack developers. Any money he's making from the FTB name is rightfully his to keep. Feed the Beast is a map he created. That creation turned into more, but that name is still his.

I think the issue is less the legality or "correctness" of what's going on and more the appearance of how "correct" it seems. plus the fact is that when someone is paying you money, they have influence over you to some degree.

far be it from me to say people should not make money or profits, but I think there's more spin than a gyroscope going on here with respect to this "partnership" and what it will really end up resulting in.

[Lothos]

this thing has no way to be anything but a bad thing for the community plain and simple.

[Ashzification]

snip

While yes, those who pay you generally have some influence over you, I disagree with you on this.

[TwoTails]

If the launcher becoming a part of the CurseForge client is true, then FtB can go fuck them selfs.

It will be sad too, as I was a good part of the comunity. (*couldn't keep strait face*) Yeah fuck right, I posted 2 things on there:

A bug report on Direwolf20 (1.5) and something calling Slowpoke an asshole. guess who got banned?

I still like FtB, but I HATE CurseForge.

[Mooseman9]

FTB becoming a company, and FTB partnering with Curse are two completely different things.

Sure, since they became a company in October, and slow saying they began negotiations with Curse in October was linked in no way whatsoever.

Slowpoke isn't making money off of the mod developers, or even the mod pack developers.

Yeah he isn't, they're not the reason why FTB got as big as it did which ultimately led it to being partnered with Curse.

[Ashzification]

Sure, since they became a company in October, and slow saying they began negotiations with Curse in October was linked in no way whatsoever.

It's not, to my knowledge. But I will never be able to convince you, so now I'll stop trying.

[freakachu]

While yes, those who pay you generally have some influence over you, I disagree with you on this.

then you have far more faith in human nature than I do. time will tell, I suppose.

[Neowulf]

How would Curse close the source? The code is posted on github. The developers want it open source, so the most Curse could do is "you can't host here because you have the source open".

Open sourcing something does not guarantee that all subsequent iterations will stay open source. All you have to do is get the OK to change the license from all the developers who have code currently in the source and you can close it as tight as you want.

You cannot chance licenses retroactively, and you cannot take a fork away from someone. But you can gut out and recreate portions from devs who don't agree (if the new closed source project doesn't contain their code they have no legal standing), and you can certainly change a project's license.

Effectively you stop developing the OSS version and start a new project, bringing all your previous work with you.

Yes, it does happen. The usual story is a project finds patronage with a company that hires the developers. Then they weed out any code not provided by the developers under their employ, ending a couple months or years later with a project solely written by people they write check to on a consistent basis.

There are two entirely possible and rather nefarious reasons they'd want to do this.

1: Close the source and keep development going for a couple MC versions. Then offer to sell the code to mojang so they can quickly implement the most prevalent modding API without having to comply with the OSS license forge currently uses. Basically curse would be selling their work navigating the legal problems of closing the project.

2: Lock down the API with more DRM than is currently in forge, so if you tried running a mod not downloaded from their service it would either ignore it or error out. Think gregtech targeting anyone but their launcher. This would give them a massive amount of control over the modding scene, since the sheer amount of momentum forge has would keep any OSS forks from gaining enough traction to be a real competitor for a long time. With control of the vast majority of mods they could then implement paid features like premium hosting, secure signing services (so no one steals your hard work), and whatnot.

[Portablejim]

*snip*

I guess they could try and convince Lexmanos that closing the source is a good idea, but they'd have a hard time convincing him. Lots of the value that forge has is because it is open source.

If Forge's output files were not moved to CurseForge then it would not be easy to automatically download dependencies.

I will admit that the visions are a bit optimistic. The worst I can see happening is:

All the large/major/popular mods switch over to Cuseforge, while the small/minor ones still use the forum. FTB turns off their launcher while the Cuse client is a terrible payware app that just barely supports anything other than Windows. FTB users have a mass exodus to other platforms. ...wait, I'm here and I said this would be the worst... FTB users stay, with a launcher that only supports 'official' modpacks. Curse adds ads to the download links so for every mod you download manually you have to click through a possibly misleading, possibly malware ridden adf.ly ad to download it (e.g. in order to put together a modpack). They might also make you have to search for the mod, instead of linking to it directly (you know, to kill AT Launcher)

So what are we left with: Something rather similar to what we have now, just with FTB and possibly AT Launcher dead.

[freakachu]

I guess they could try and convince Lexmanos that closing the source is a good idea, but they'd have a hard time convincing him. Lots of the value that forge has is because it is open source.

you might be surprised how much sway a fistful of dollars has over a lot of people. I know that response sounds super cynical but this shit happens to good things/people with the best of intentions on the regular. as great as Lex is, he doesn't strike me as being particularly savvy in a business sense

edit: this is why I said the devil is in the details in my first post. those details that they haven't talked about are absoutely what will make or break this whole deal.

[Bluehorazon]

Well there are a few things you should consider:

1. Lex already had offers to sell Forge, why should he sell it now and why should anybody even want to buy it. You can simply create a fork and use it. However since Forge is OpenSource now there is no way that you can keep anybody from continuing the project.

2. FTB doesn't need Forge. They have good hosting abilities. What they lack is manpower and money to hire people. They would simply need a lot of time to establish what curse already has, which also means they could still do it, but would need more time. FTB can go back to the current state at any given point.

Also a lot of mods, exspecially smaller ones already use Curse for hosting. Larger mods normally have there own sites to get the mods and normally don't use the forum at all.

Also even if the curse-launcher sucks... you don't really need it. Just create your instance with it and run it by other means afterwards.

Curse also has nothing to lose. They already host the mods... why not set up a system to allows for easier installation. It costs them nothing, they propably want to do it anyway, however they would have to advertise and create their own modpacks, now they possibly get names like Mindcrack or Dire in there.

Actually curse can lose a lot more than FTB. Curse is a company. They make money with that. FTB doesn't. If slow wants money he can simply stream running a donation mob and wait for people to kill him with Nitro-Creepers and Withers by donating. The FTB-people aren't dependend on the success of this, so they basically have nothing to lose. And actually if it goes bad and they do end it from their side people will propably blame curse and applaud them for cutting the ties if necessary.

Curse on the other hand would greatly benefit from the popularity modpacks have. If people use their launcher to run modpacks they will win. This however means that they actually have to put some effort into improving it, something that can't be bad. Actually just for minecraft their launcher will get Linux/Mac-Support and FTB already said that they won't switch before that happened.

Honestly for people using modpacks not much will change. They will have propably more modpacks avaible and it will be easier to customize them... however it will propably be at the price of ads in the launcher. The greatest benefit actually is for the modders. Right now they get nothing at all from downloads via modpacks. The system curse uses actually allows them to make money without the stupidity that is adfly. And well I can't complain about curse-adds. If you see a bad add you can report it and it is gone in seconds... can't really say that about adfly.

[ThePagan]

http://www.minecraftforge.net/forum/index.php?topic=15404.0

I'll see if I can make this into a common questions post:

Will Forge still be free? Yes, it will always be free

Will Forge still be open source? Yes, Open source all the way.

Will Curse Launcher be REQUIRED to use Forge? No, you will still be able to download and install Forge exactly how you can now. The major end user visible change. Is that this forum, will be moved to a Curse controlled forum. And our download list (this) will move to CurseForge somewhere. The same exact files/setup. Just a different, more robust host.

I think everything is going to be just fine. That just relieved any worry I had about the whole deal.

[Portablejim]

you might be surprised how much sway a fistful of dollars has over a lot of people. I know that response sounds super cynical but this shit happens to good things/people with the best of intentions on the regular. as great as Lex is, he doesn't strike me as being particularly savvy in a business sense

edit: this is why I said the devil is in the details in my first post. those details that they haven't talked about are absoutely what will make or break this whole deal.

I actually think that a Closed Source Forge would flop completely, since it is mainly thourgh pull requests that it grows. Also, it is important to realise the distinction between ForgeModLoader (maintained by CPW, Lex only has a small role) from Forge itself (Maintained my Lex, CPW only has a small role), although most things past a basic mod is basically all forge.

Then there is also that under the new Mojang Terms of Use / EULA, Mojang can actually incorporate Forge into Minecraft if they want to. But trying to sell Mojang a mod from their own game would be seen as both against the terms and a dick move. So I am sure they would not be afaraid to use their lawyers.

[Neowulf]

Well there are a few things you should consider:

1. Lex already had offers to sell Forge, why should he sell it now and why should anybody even want to buy it. You can simply create a fork and use it. However since Forge is OpenSource now there is no way that you can keep anybody from continuing the project.

As I stated, any fork will have a very long uphill journey to come anywhere near what forge will coast with if they went closed source. Especially if they waited till a game changer MC update like the 1.3 and 1.7 updates and close source then.

Say 1.9 changes a whole mess of stuff like 1.7 does. They could sit, work on it on private build servers until the new version is ready a month or two after the MC patch is released then break the news of closing source as they release the new version. Closed source forge has a 1-2month headstart, ALL the brand recognition still, and no possible competition likely to arise for atleast 6 months as all the little factions squabble over which fork will be the new standard.

2. FTB doesn't need Forge. They have good hosting abilities. What they lack is manpower and money to hire people. They would simply need a lot of time to establish what curse already has, which also means they could still do it, but would need more time. FTB can go back to the current state at any given point.

I believe you meant to type "FTB doesn't need Curse", because they sure as hell need forge. Without forge neither technic nor FTB would exist.

And no, FTB is not in as strong of a position as you believe. Curse could have, if they so wished, created their own set of modpacks using the launcher FTB is moving to, and not had to have "partnered" with FTB. Curse controls the official minecraft forums with all couple million eyeballs fixed on it, already has their own launcher with a whole team of professional programmers working on it, and now has curseforge with a growing stranglehold on mod hosting. FTB has nothing on the technical side that can rival that.

At best Curse is doing this to ensure modding stays firmly entrenched on their forums and sites, with no more leakage to those upstart launchers and their modpacks.

Anyone with half a brain knows minecraft would have faded out a long time ago if not for modding filling in those gameplay gaps mojang is slow to take notice of. And now Curse has a hand deep inside both the root of modding and the modpacking group that boasts the most well known names in the scene. How long they take to start wiggling those fingers and to what end is all pure speculation, but history teaches it won't be an altruistic finder they extend.

[freakachu]

Well there are a few things you should consider:

1. Lex already had offers to sell Forge, why should he sell it now and why should anybody even want to buy it. You can simply create a fork and use it. However since Forge is OpenSource now there is no way that you can keep anybody from continuing the project.

it's possible still. I don't think it's likely in all honestly though. my point is not that it's totally going to happen, my point is that it could easily happen because everyone has a number, essentially. so, likely? no but don't discount the possibility in the future. you never know what could happen.

2. FTB doesn't need Forge. They have good hosting abilities. What they lack is manpower and money to hire people. They would simply need a lot of time to establish what curse already has, which also means they could still do it, but would need more time. FTB can go back to the current state at any given point.

lol wut? FTB needs forge because FTB's mods all run on forge, not because of hosting. also FTB has no lack of manpower, their team is easily twice the size of technic's. sometimes it really is all in how you use it.

Also a lot of mods, exspecially smaller ones already use Curse for hosting. Larger mods normally have there own sites to get the mods and normally don't use the forum at all.

most mods are hosted placed like mediafire and dropbox. curseforge is not as popular as you seem to think. does it have mods hosted there? yes. does it have tons of them? no.

Also even if the curse-launcher sucks... you don't really need it. Just create your instance with it and run it by other means afterwards.

hate to break this to you, but that process still used their launcher. i.e. you would need it.

Curse also has nothing to lose. They already host the mods... why not set up a system to allows for easier installation. It costs them nothing, they propably want to do it anyway, however they would have to advertise and create their own modpacks, now they possibly get names like Mindcrack or Dire in there.

they host some mods. a very small small subset of mods. this whole deal is because they want more of them and more traffic. more mods means more traffic means more ad views/click means money for curse. you're right that they're not risking much though by doing this.

Actually curse can lose a lot more than FTB. Curse is a company. They make money with that. FTB doesn't. If slow wants money he can simply stream running a donation mob and wait for people to kill him with Nitro-Creepers and Withers by donating. The FTB-people aren't dependend on the success of this, so they basically have nothing to lose. And actually if it goes bad and they do end it from their side people will propably blame curse and applaud them for cutting the ties if necessary.

hate to burst your bubble again, but as of october last year, FTB is a company too. this is a low risk move for curse. at the cost of a couple salaries and some increased hosting/hardware expenses they might gain a large increase in ad revenue. however this is a high risk move for FTB. if this goes south, they lose their userbase until the only ones left are the True Believers, which are not a large number of people. it's hard to make lots of money off a handful of people buying your stuff/looking at your ads/ donating to kill you on stream. this could literally make or break FTB as a pack and/or brand for the foreseeable future. even if they cut it off the damage will have been done. the same cannot be said of curse. curse will continue regardless of the outcome of this deal.

Curse on the other hand would greatly benefit from the popularity modpacks have. If people use their launcher to run modpacks they will win. This however means that they actually have to put some effort into improving it, something that can't be bad. Actually just for minecraft their launcher will get Linux/Mac-Support and FTB already said that they won't switch before that happened.

yes, the goal is to get more people to use curse's stuff and by extension see their ads. that doesn't mean a lot of effort will be put into improving the launcher. that means that it's likely something resembling a launcher may appear that runs on linux/mac and has a curse logo + ads all over it. don't get your hopes up.

Honestly for people using modpacks not much will change. They will have propably more modpacks avaible and it will be easier to customize them... however it will propably be at the price of ads in the launcher. The greatest benefit actually is for the modders. Right now they get nothing at all from downloads via modpacks. The system curse uses actually allows them to make money without the stupidity that is adfly. And well I can't complain about curse-adds. If you see a bad add you can report it and it is gone in seconds... can't really say that about adfly.

here's where I'm going to completely derail your hype train on this. the whole reason that this is a bad idea is that it sucks for the end user. the mod consumer, the average minecraft player, will most likely have a lesser experience now because of this. if you want some backing to that, look at the current curse client and see how that operates. downloads are artificially limited in speed (did you know some MC mods are over or around 50 megs in size?), inability to queue up more than 2 downloads at a time, stupid ads delivered through an IE widget, etc.. for some games, that's actually a great setup. for instance, it works pretty well for WoW UI mods, but those are usually very small in terms of size and WoW was built to support them from the get-go so there aren't as many wacky interactions between them (still happens sometimes but it's rare).

the thing is MC modding already has great launchers. for instance, the technic launcher or even the current FTB launcher. technic's launcher is free of ads, already supports windows/linux/mac, supports custom mod packs through the platform in an easy to use fashion (for the end user) and allows for great control over packs for creators through solder. do you honestly believe curse would allow technic's launcher to use their system on equal footing with their own launcher? I don't give two shits about what slow has said on the subject, this new launcher would have to beat out technic's in terms of functionality, ease of use, and performance all while the entire system the new launcher uses would be available to both launchers. it will never happen. being able to play FTB packs won't be enough motivation when there's the ability to play packs that are the same if not better through other launchers that aren't nearly as crappy.

additionally, if other launchers remain popular or even gain users as the flee FTB, now curse is hosting a bunch of stuff for free for other people, AND paying mod authors (apparently?) without making any money on the deal. that is not a winning proposition and it won't be allowed to continue for long if it ever occurs. edit: for proof of this, look up a program called "WoWMatrix" and the drama surrounding it that happened a few years ago. it was pulling mods from curse, and allowing downloads without people seeing the ads. curse blocked it from accessing the site just as a new expansion launched for WoW and curse launched their client. there was much crying, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. oh and btw WoWMatrix was actually a better mod updater/installer than the curse client has ever been.

the fact is that the entire post linked in the OP contains almost no info on why it's a good move for you, the user. it is entirely full of why it's a good move for slow, the FTB brand/company, lexmanos, and forge. none of those people/things are you. the parts that aren't that are simply a list of "how it be" and the changes or lack thereof that will be made as a result of this move that is totes awesome for slowpoke and the gang. that means that a) the focus is not on what's good for the community or the end user and it's most likely missing that stuff because it's just not a good deal for you.

they are making grand promises and some people with active imaginations are taking those grand designs and blowing them up to epic proportions that even slowpoke never implied.

the question that should be asked is, "what do I get out of this?" and the answer so far is "more ads" basically. that's not a win for you. that is a bad deal, regardless of how open sourced anything remains.

[Hammerson]

I think that getting mods hosted by Curseforge is in itself a good thing - not because they're perfect, but because they're a vast improvement over the mediafire and adfly hodgepodge.

But there's this, from Slowpoke (via a reddit transcript of a Q&A):

Mod developers will be able to assign flags such as only allowing use in certain modpacks, or being completely open.

This is bad. The two dubious excuses modders have used to disallow unmodified redistribution (keeping track of # of downloads, and getting ad revenue) are both not an issue for CurseForge-hosted downloads. So in my opinion, this is akin to putting a song on Spotify then demanding that only certain users can make playlists with it.

[disconsented]

I think that getting mods hosted by Curseforge is in itself a good thing - not because they're perfect, but because they're a vast improvement over the mediafire and adfly hodgepodge.

But there's this, from Slowpoke (via a reddit transcript of a Q&A):

Mod developers will be able to assign flags such as only allowing use in certain modpacks, or being completely open.

This is bad. The two dubious excuses modders have used to disallow unmodified redistribution (keeping track of # of downloads, and getting ad revenue) are both not an issue for CurseForge-hosted downloads. So in my opinion, this is akin to putting a song on Spotify then demanding that only certain users can make playlists with it.

Source?

[freakachu]

Source?

here: http://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast/comments/1uu9xh/slowpokes_q_and_a_for_the_curse_partnership/

sounds like they are starting out with one foot firmly on a banana peel if this is the case. same old shit, just fancier clothes.

edit: read the whole summary there. hahaha how can you say "Curse is also not allowed to profit off the downloading of the mods." and then go on to say that curse is going to be running ads, but you can totally opt out. opt out how, by buying curse premium? I hope they got that shit in writing and signed because if not, they're both fucking idiots of the highest caliber.

[slowpoke101]

Lots of really good questions here, its good to come back to this site to get a decent synopsis of potential issues and problems. I am going to go through and answer as many as I can over the next 20 minutes for you all.

[disconsented]

Lots of really good questions here, its good to come back to this site to get a decent synopsis of potential issues and problems. I am going to go through and answer as many as I can over the next 20 minutes for you all.

Good to see our concerns are being addressed, the big thing for me (as a mod packer/server owner) is "Mod developers will be able to assign flags such as only allowing use in certain modpacks, or being completely open."

Initially to me it looks like that this is enabling mod developers to shut off their mods entirely to another launcher system (Kinda like Greg Tech and the Technic platform). Is there anything being put in place to counter act this?

[freakachu]

Lots of really good questions here, its good to come back to this site to get a decent synopsis of potential issues and problems. I am going to go through and answer as many as I can over the next 20 minutes for you all.

this should be good. tell me, slow, how does this make anything better for the users? I really want to know. give me the most utopian pie in the sky dream scenario possible.

[slowpoke101]

I will just put up the post numbers that relate to the answers I am giving, theres not much sense to the order here as I am going from post #1 down

#2 You do realise FTB supported Third Party Mod Packs way before platform did right? There is no jealousy as I still dont really agree with Platforms ability to bypass permissions, but thats a different debate.

#3 The moderation team for FTB will remain the same as it is now. No one has come to me and said they want to leave because of this.

#4 I dont know if this helps, but we are not merging our forums into another set of forums, we are just changing the location. Will there be ads? yes but then that was probably always going to happen and its not like ours will be the forst website with ads on.

#6 silly post

#8 A completely new launcher for Minecraft is being developed. Once this deal takes place, Lex and myself will be running the project. Nothing from FTB will be moving over to the curse client until we say it does. There are no hard timelines on this.

#13 We absolutely do not need Curse for anything, we are going into this deal because whist there are potential risks, I believe the potential benefits for the entire community outweigh those risks. We are in a perfect position for this bargain, it costs me nothing to say no to this.

#16 As already noted here, Curse are not purchasing any assets here. Forge will remain open source.

#18 Completely agreed freakachu. The only difference is I am going into this beleiving we can achieve those goals. You are totally right to wait and make judgement on our actions and not our words.

#20 I still havent heard anyone give me a good reason to not like Curse. If its because they haves then that is fair enough. But beyond that this only works if we create something people want to use. If we make something rubbish, no one will use it and a whole load of development money goes out the window. We cant force people to use this stuff and its not like there aren't several viable alternatives out there. We want people to use this new launcher becuase its good.

#24 Plenty of youtubers sign agreements with networks, I assume you have the same problem with them as well.

#29 I hope to prove you wrong.

#32 FTB became a business at the beginning of October, our first contact with Curse was several weeks later. There was no connection between the 2.

#35 1) They cant do this, they dont and will not own Forge.

2) They cant do this, they dont and will not own Forge

#36 As things stand, Forge does have its uses for FTB yes

#42 1) In this instance I have heard nothing to indicate even remotely that lex has a number, however that is only my opinion. I can say that Lex is very adamant that Forge remain independent.

2) I think you would be surprised actually. I think as far as manpower goes we are almost the same. excluding people like moderators etc. We have 2 people working part time on the website, 2 people working part time on modpacks (remember we have several modpacks that we work on and currently 1 person working part time on the launcher.

3) Curseforge is not massively popular now no, thats our job to change it into a place that mod developers and end users 'want' to use in order to increase its popularity. Again this only works if CurseForge is good.

4) It a conditional part of the deal that other launchers can access the mods on the site in some fashion (yes this includes technic ) Of course this doesn't mean you have to, but the facility will be there, should you choose to use it.

5) Risk isnt the right word, I would say gain is more appropriate, Curse has a lot to gain if this is done right.

6) This is a high risk move for both parties. There is a substantial amount of developmentwork to be done (hence the timeline) thats a lot of salaries tied up on this project. I am totally aware that this as the potential to trash the FTB name. It is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about and talking to others about. However I still believ that the potential reward outweighs this risk.

7) Again the switchover happens when I say it happens and I wont allow that until such time as the launcher is in a place i feel is satisfactory.

8) This is another actions is louder than words. I would say dont judge us on the current launcher, it is not related to the one we will be using. There will be no artificial limiting of bandwidth etc.

As to the launchers themselves, The technic launcher is OK, the current FTB launcher is also OK as long as your talking about packs you create yourself. If we do a bad job, people can still use the technic launcher. I will say however though, our goal is to make a better launcher than both the current FTB launcher and all other launchers out there. No one is going to be forced into using the Curse Client, our job is to build a client you want to use.

The question that should be asked is 'What do I get out of this' You are completely right in that, but ask it at the right time when there is a way for you to get an answer.

This is still very early days. I have a vision of what I want to help build here, will I succeed. I wont know unless I try.