EE Discussion

[Torezu]

I'll definitely have to look that up then, Thaumcraft was definitely an interesting mod. Is there any discussion on adding it into the Tekkit or Technic pack?

It's barely into the alpha stage, so I highly doubt it will make its way into Technic or Tekkit before MC1.4 and the mod API, unless Azanor is...very industrious.

[Minecraft_Nick]

ee sucks

[Lennalf]

My Tekkit 2 server had EE enabled, but we decided to disable it for Tekkit 3.

After making red matter tools with EE, I was horrified at the amount of destruction that can be caused by accident, so I disabled the destructive tools. If you do decide to keep EE, I suggest doing the same for everybody's safety. But we decided to disable it entirely in the next world for a different reason. The players and I agreed that it ruins the resource accumulation aspect of the game.

Tekkit makes mining fun. As in, even more rewarding and addictive than vanilla mining. There are tons of tech options in Tekkit for gathering resources that are more interesting and more balanced that EE's alchemy. For manual mining, you can use Redpower2 gem tools early, then IC2 mining drills and lasers later. Lasers are a lot of fun. For automated mining, there are quarries and mining drills in both Buildcraft and IC2. All of these tech alternatives only allow the player to access resources that actually exist within a given area, so rarity is pretty well-preserved. It is worth mentioning, however, that UU-matter in IC2 allows transmutation to lots of vanilla and tekkit "natural resources," but it doesn't do everything. For example, it can't create mob drops like ghast tears or blaze rods, so the user still has reasons to kill stuff. It also doesn't do any Redpower2 ores. And above all, it doesn't do processed resources or items of any kind, so the player still has a reason to create automated factories to process the materials and craft things.

UU-matter is basically the "end-game" tech for Tekkit if you don't have EE, but if you do have EE you can bypass the entire tech progression it normally takes to get UU-matter in a much, much shorter time frame and with far less effort. EE makes it possible to accumulate virtually infinite items of any kind, which eliminates the concept of rarity. In our Tekkit 2 server I made 17 solar flowers and it was just insane how much redmatter I could crap out. I could have built a fortress of red matter at that point, but it wouldn't have even felt like an accomplishment because it was so easy.

EE pretty much eliminates crafting from the game since you can just transmute everything after you craft one copy. This isn't universally true, but it is intended to be. It's convenient, but it really cheapens the whole Minecraft experience. Tekkit is more fun for nerds if you leave out EE.

Although, I will now contradict myself and tell you that we did decide to allow exactly two EE2 items: philosopher's stone and swiftwolf's rending gale.

Pstone is just fucking amazing. First, it's a portable crafting table. Second, it makes the really mundane task of landscaping faster and more fun. It only works on a few very common materials, so it isn't dangerous or imbalanced. Pstone does allow you to do a few transmutation recipes too, but they are very limited. You can pack your coal into aeternalis fuel as a storage block, which is just handy. But you can also transmute iron<>gold<>diamond (at arguably fair ratios) and can turn 1 coal into 4 charcoal (which burn for the same amount of time). I'm not crazy about that part, but I just don't use those recipes personally. Also, we only added Pstone after I'd gotten UU matter, making it more of a moot point for us.

I also added swiftwolf's after using an electric jetpack for several weeks. I got sick of two things with the jetpack. First, it is not nearly as useful for building things because you are constantly going up and down. Second, the way fall damage is calculated makes the item extremely dangerous and also non-intuitive. Swiftwolf just gives you creative mode style flight, which is a massive boon. And it costs a fucking shitload.

[nethervoid]

To make a really long post short, EE feels way too much like creative to me. Another way to say it is I feel like it's so easy it's like getting the items by pulling them out of the item list.

Part of the fun of getting diamond is that it's supposed to be kinda rare. If you can pull them out of the air in stacks, they lose some of their fun. Even though I have around 80 diamonds in my chest at base, I still get giggly when I find some in the shaft I'm mining. If I could pull them out of thin air that fun would be gone.

[SarzaelX]

Well... I won't argue about armors, Quantum undoubtedly is as powerful as gem, but you never get to a level where you can vaporize hole chunks with a few clicks in IC/BC.

I think that they are equalized.

Quantum is totally and purely INDESTRUCTIBLE.

Gem armor has some offensive powers, explode around you, sprint instead of walk, and super-jump, however, some things can and will deal you damage, and his powers have no effect agaisnt someone you can deal ZERO damage to.

I once tried Gem Armor agaisnt Quantum with a friend. I was gem armor. We destroyed the whole chunk, and none of the armors was even damaged.

However, in a nuclear meltdown...

Quantum survives.

Gem Armor is dead.

[Object]

ee sucks

I'm pretty sure I specifically asked not to say stupid shit like this.

Back on topic, I've been trying out EE and it does seem like I'm progressing a lot quicker then if I wasn't using it. The trans tablet allows me to convert things like rubies and uranium into whatever I feel like.

Obviously you guys know how it works but I'm really starting to see what you all have been talking about. I feel like I don't really care what I'm digging up anymore because it's all going into EMC.

The transmuting system is interesting but I don't think you should be able to convert anything into EMC, and I think all the values should be lowered.

[OmegaJasam]

It worth noting that even the mods /authors/ think it is terribly unbalanced/op on multiplayer especially, thus the fundamental changes coming in EE3.

EE2 as a whole, does not balance with other mods well at all. The core mechanic of transmutation removes the scarcity that all the other mods balance around. You combine that with multiplayers always on senario, it's super-creative-mode endgame, the tools which far surpass any other mod by their mid-game and that the other mods speed your progression in EE (macerator, tubes) and you have a mod which /dominates/ the server's playstyle.

Some people still like that playstyle. And it's not that the other mods don;t have their faults (UU matter, redpower frame inchworm drives, tubes+watermills), but the order of magnitude with the core mechanics, let alone each indivdual item, mean EE2 is something you /really/ need to consider if you want to have on your server.

We have it disabled, along with teleport pipes, solar arrays, ender chests and a few broken combos have been made off limits. The results? Amazing machnines, /railcraft systems/ of all things, and just a general intresting verity of machines. EE is the biggest shortcut to nowhere in existence. On an EE server I would be tempted to give everyone /gamemode and just skip the first couple hours of generating infinate emc so they can enjoy super creative.

[Minecraft_Nick]

I'm pretty sure I specifically asked not to say stupid shit like this.

Back on topic, I've been trying out EE and it does seem like I'm progressing a lot quicker then if I wasn't using it. The trans tablet allows me to convert things like rubies and uranium into whatever I feel like.

Obviously you guys know how it works but I'm really starting to see what you all have been talking about. I feel like I don't really care what I'm digging up anymore because it's all going into EMC.

The transmuting system is interesting but I don't think you should be able to convert anything into EMC, and I think all the values should be lowered.

it speeds up the game way to much once you have a flower collector thing the games over so thats why it sucks

[Torezu]

it speeds up the game way to much once you have a flower collector thing the games over so thats why it sucks

So disable collectors and anything else you don't want. Don't post in this thread any more unless you have something more constructive to say. See other posts for examples. We've been over this before, but this thread is not being closed because so far it's been a civil discussion.

[Minecraft_Nick]

So disable collectors and anything else you don't want. Don't post in this thread any more unless you have something more constructive to say. See other posts for examples. We've been over this before, but this thread is not being closed because so far it's been a civil discussion.

the title is ee discussion, im giving my two cents, why am i at fault i believe ee is way op and ends the game far to quick, i do have it banned on my server, i came to this thread to post my opinion on the topic, and you keep shuting me down not cool.

[Torezu]

From the OP:

I always try things about before I make any major decisions, but I was hoping for some more insight from the community here. A word of warning though, please do not add replies like "It's OP" or "Just disable it" or "Leeeeeeerooooooooy!" I just ignore them (except maybe the last one), instead please state your opinion as to why you either like it or why you don't. Also regarding my main question, I'd love to hear opinions on why you think it allows people to progress too quickly or why you think it's balanced with other non-EE items like macerators.

Your next post:

it speeds up the game way to much once you have a flower collector thing the games over so thats why it sucks

Your first post in the thread was very obviously low-effort, to the point of trolling, so I issued a warning for it. The next one at least had a reason, sort of, but that reason was already acknowledged by the OP, so it added nothing to the thread. If you were going for redeeming yourself from a low-effort post, add an anecdote, a better opinion, etc., instead of simply saying that it speeds up the game too much.

[lunarknight32]

I can understand how people think EE is overpowered. The collectors get free emc from the sun, transmuting items with no loss, getting 128 stacks of dirt from 1 diamond, and the catalytic lens mining a 64x3x3 hole for you. Personally, I don't like to go straight for EE anymore, because after you get a flower up, you pretty much have unlimited resources. I'd rather save that for late-game when I want to build crazy stuff.

But do you know how long it takes to get a collector flower up? While playing actively, it took me 2.5 weeks to get one. Not to mention the cost. The cost of just 1 MK3 relay is equivalent to about 86 diamonds. It may be overpowered, but it's freaking expensive. If I'm going to get something worth 86 diamonds, it better be overpowered.

[MizukiAyu]

EE is something that is a really fun SSP mod but it's really bad for SMP. Once you have a DM Hammer you mine 5x5 tunnels along diamond level and essentially have unlimited EMC. In PVP it's broken because the tools break protected land (i.e. Factions, World Guard, Lockette...) and many server owners disable it for this purpose. EE in combination with many Tekkit aspects also is riddled with bugs. Crafting Table II (Possibly III but I don't know) had a bug that let you dupe Diamond picks, then you put the picks into the tablet and make diamonds. The divining rods basically give you x-ray vision, your tools never break or lose charge (Since it's sooo cheap to replenish EMC) and one trip to the nether will provide you with enough EMC for the tools needed to mine fast and just explode with EMC.

On EE servers my faction can get 50 diamonds in the first 30 min easy, legit...so yea it's broken as hell. Now I will of course use ever tool available to me on PVP servers because everyone has the option.

[MizukiAyu]

I can understand how people think EE is overpowered. The collectors get free emc from the sun, transmuting items with no loss, getting 128 stacks of dirt from 1 diamond, and the catalytic lens mining a 64x3x3 hole for you. Personally, I don't like to go straight for EE anymore, because after you get a flower up, you pretty much have unlimited resources. I'd rather save that for late-game when I want to build crazy stuff.

But do you know how long it takes to get a collector flower up? While playing actively, it took me 2.5 weeks to get one. Not to mention the cost. The cost of just 1 MK3 relay is equivalent to about 86 diamonds. It may be overpowered, but it's freaking expensive. If I'm going to get something worth 86 diamonds, it better be overpowered.

With divining rods and Glowstone setting up a flower can take within 5 hours, it's really not that expensive and when you focus EE it's just too crazy. On SMP servers, PVP or not, no one is gonna use EE for leisure.

[BlasterMaster555]

...in IC it's mostly the nuclear plant taking out half your base...

More like your entire base and all the scenery around it as well.

[stringburka]

I dislike it, because of the exponentiality of the power increase. While your income increases exponentially with BC/IC2 too, it's not at all in the same league - and you still have to do a lot of upkeep to keep everything working in IC2/BC. I also dislike it in multiplayer because it makes diamonds a little too easy to get - I think even the divining rod is too good, or at least FAR too cheap; I could see a pricing of iron+RS for the first, diamond+coal for the second and red matter+glowstone for the last. That would make it balanced in my opinion.

I just think things go too fast with EE. Some things aren't big problems, like the armors and the rings/amulets because they're expensive, are powerful but not gamebreaking, and they don't rapidly increase your access to other stuff.

From a thematic perspective, I dislike it because I don't get any verisimillitude with it. IC2/BC feels tech and feels good. Thaumcraft (especially the first, but the second too) feels magic and feels good. EE just feels... Mathematical. It doesn't have the alchemical/magic feel that thaumcraft has because it's so little about what I think of when I think alchemy and so much about calculations and numbers.

EDIT: It should be said, I dislike _playing with it_ in servers. I'm not saying it's bad as a mod - I quite enjoyed it in single player as a way to quite smoothly (though a little too quickly) go from survival to creative.

[Object]

Aren't divining rods basically the same as OV scanners but don't require upkeep? (yes I know, I made this post a while ago and still have yet to get into EE a fair amount)

[Xylord]

Aren't divining rods basically the same as OV scanners but don't require upkeep? (yes I know, I made this post a while ago and still have yet to get into EE a fair amount)

You need to feed them fuel though.

[Object]

You need to feed them fuel though.

So they're basically exactly the same as IC scanners?

[Xylord]

So they're basically exactly the same as IC scanners?

Well, I prefer the IC scanner, because they work with electricity, which is more or less free once you got some energy production going, while the rods work with redstone, coal etc, which are actually valuable resources that could be used elsewhere.

[Torezu]

Well, I prefer the IC scanner, because they work with electricity, which is more or less free once you got some energy production going, while the rods work with redstone, coal etc, which are actually valuable resources that could be used elsewhere.

Last I checked, divining rods do not use fuel, and have a smaller area than OD or OV scanners.

[stringburka]

Divining rods are free. They have a smaller area than the OV scanner, but the turquise and blue ones have larger area than the OD. However, they are much more precise - they point in a 16*3*3 and for the blue one 64*3*3 area, and they show you the EMC value of the most valuable (and for the blue one, the three most valuable). This means you can run along a wall with the blue one until you see 8192, which is OFTEN, and then just dive straight ahead with a pickaxe to get it. My diamond acquisition speed with vanilla + divining rod the first three to four days of gaming would be higher than my tekkit -EE diamond acquisition speed during this time. After that, I might have enough quarries to outdig the divining rod.

[makeshiftwings]

Two friends and I just started a Tekkit server three days ago and we now all agree that EE feels way too cheaty compared to all the other mods. It does basically unlock creative mode; just a slightly more annoying creative mode since you have to put down a tablet and click on it to get stuff instead of pulling items from the side menu in NEI. I think people who say "Yeah but it takes a while to get unlimited EMC" don't really understand the math very well. This was the first time I've used EE or Tekkit, so I'm not a master or anything. My experience:

1) Day one - we mined, started building a base, gathered some resources, didn't do anything EE related except make divining rods which were kind of cool, and covalence dust which was useful and repaired gem tools for far cheaper than it would have been to build new ones. Using one iron and one redstone to get ~13 full repairs of a sapphire mining pick instead of needing to build 13 new ones (which would be 39 sapphires) felt a little cheap but not terrible. Eventually I found 3 diamonds and made a diamond mining pick, harvested enough obsidian to build a portal, went to the nether and got some glowstone but then later died in some lava and lost my mining pick and my extra obsidian :~(.

2) Day two - we played with some IC machines and made a macerator and things. The macerator doubles ore but required setting up a power plant and waiting around for it to chop them up, so it seemed fine. Later in the day I found more diamonds, made a new diamond mining pick, and got some more obsidian and glowstone. I made the alchemist's stone and a transmutation tablet. This was the beginning of looking into EE, and basically the last time any of us ever had to go mining or looking for anything ever again. Creative mode was unocked. I dumped some random crap in the trans tablet that we didn't need (like uranium, tungsten, all those sapphires/emeralds/rubies we didn't need due to covalence dust, a chest or two of dirt, a few stacks of zombie meat, etc). This gave me enough EMC to build a collector + condenser, which we put on the roof and set to duplicate diamonds.

3) Day three - logged in to see we had a chest full of 500+ diamonds. We used some to build two new collectors to triple the speed, and then used the rest to have infinite materials for every other thing we ever wanted to build. I figured out you could macerate blaze rods to five dust and transmute two dust into one blaze rod, so I sat there for 15 minutes moving them in between the macerator and trans table until I had a few full stacks of diamond blocks just for fun. Then built a small machine that was a single macerator + condensor loop to do this blaze rod trick and set it to duplicate red matter. Went off to build a tower and an hour later had a chest full of red matter. I built every item in EE except the few that needed a charged omega star and still had plenty of red matter left over. Tried them out and found them way too ludicrous... a mining pick that lets you right-click to auto-harvest 200 blocks at a time. A sword that insta-kills everything from range. Full immunity from all damage, drowning, lava, and no need for food or health or anything else, plus creative mode flying, infinite inventory storage that is unlosable even if you somehow figure out how to die, free auto-repair of every item including modded ones, etc. I built a tower out of solid diamond blocks just because it seemed funny, but ultimately I actually felt kind of annoyed since it felt like I was just playing in creative mode now, and there was never any real need to ever go explore or harvest or anything.

Keep in mind I never built a "flower" or any of the more advanced collectors or an antimatter relay or anything like that. We had nearly infinite resources just after making the single transmutation tablet, and the blaze rod macerator machine was just there to get all the EE tools, which would otherwise require something like 50,000 diamonds. EE clearly expects you to build some kind of infinite EMC generator like this since obviously the mod author didn't expect you to go manually dig up 50,000 diamonds. But this also means the mod author thinks it's normal for you to pull 50,000 diamonds out of your butt whenever you feel like it, which is obviously way out of balance with all other Tekkit mods that seem to treat diamonds as "rare" and use them in high-end components.

Today is day four, and we're talking about dismantling the diamond duplicator, shutting down my red matter machine, and possibly disabling EE altogether since we sort of miss the actual MINING and CRAFTING that is most of the fun of minecraft.

[Newe6000]

People who blindly go "UMG EE SHOULD BE REMOVED THIS INSTANT ARGH PERIOD." annoy me but I can 100% see where the anti EE arguments are coming from.

Following in yogscastlana's steps on getting started I spent ages mining and getting resources, then he starts going into EE. I go from routing the shit of my quarry into an energy condenser and still having a huge challenge getting things to just flying around summoning shit from nothing and being totally fucking bored.

Still, their are many aspects that people choose to ignore in favour of hating it. It is so unbelievably useful to just put your shit into a chest and slowly have it converted to diamonds. While it may be "magic" I see lots of factory's that just need you to insert high EMC value things and then the factory converts it into the required items. Also the flying ring is unbelievably useful, The jetpack is a piece of shit and you cant deny it. Nothing beats free flying. I like where it comes from and I really do like it, of coarse until one day while opening the door to my tree house with my red matter axe then the thing goes "OH YOU WANT ME TO CHOP THIS DOWN DO YOU? MY PLEASURE" and fucking ruins everything. Its handy to have a right click take that tree down button but using it on the forest clears like 2 or 3 chunks of tree and it just needs a little rebalance.

Some aspects (like the previous) are ridiculous and need some form of nerf or some incentive to keep playing after reaching endgame. It reminds me of the argument that sparked after crafting table III's removal. Basicly in that argument all I saw was "Its pretty damn handy" "ITS TOO HANDY WE DON'T WORK HARD ENOUGH GASHWEDGWHD". The thing is no matter what you use its designed to make you work less hard. Arguments that EE make the game easier are pretty stupid compared to the fact EVERY SINGLE MOD IN TEKKIT IS DESIGNED TO MAKE SOME ASPECT OF THE GAME EASIER.

If the people who argue for harder gameplay are looking for harder gameplay so much, newsflash, the base game is a lot fucking harder then tekkit. No shortcuts, every single diamond is a diamond you mined. No way to make that cobblestone useful, that shit is and will always be cobblestone. No way to double your ore outcome, no way to remove the need for coal, no way to set something up to mine for you and then idle. Wanna make a computer? Well start building, because your building that shit piece by piece with the limited vanilla redstone. No redwire, you gotta find a way to make that dust climb up that wall, no just placing it on the wall. No magical add redstone to stone to make a computer. No magical add glass to stone to make a monitor, you make every single individual meter square pixel of that screen.

If we learned to play our own style and stop judging people for taking the easier route we would have a lot more fun. Maybe if we even tried a different style we can see where other people are coming from. But if your arguing your route is the best and most fun when its the only route you have used, your gonna have a bad time.

[stringburka]

Newe: Why are you annoyed at other people when you admit you don't understand their arguments? If something, shouldn't you be annoyed at yourself and try reading it again?

Yes, there are no "balance" issues with EE when you don't use it. However, for the same price and effort you get your quarry, you could have set up a machine that nets you several diamonds per minute (or other things). It is very useful - my issue with it is that it is _too_ useful.

Now, of course it could be said that all mods make the game easier - but I wouldn't use a mod that let me start the game with infinite health, no hunger, and flying either, despite it making the game easier.

People have different tastes when it comes to how "easy" they want the game to be (or rather, how much power they want the character to have). Some people want creative, some want EE (though late-game EE is arguably easier than creative), some want tekkit-EE and some want vanilla.

There is one big difference between the other major tekkit mods and EE though. Industrialcraft, buildcraft, and to a certain extent redpower have a lot of _complexity_. While you get a lot more power than vanilla minecraft, they take a lot of time and effort to set up, and to a large degree only work with limited resources (well, most powerful stuff at least). You can create something out of nothing with only IC2+RP, but it takes an enormous wind or solar farm to do it with any kind of speed, combined with a cobblestone generator, recyclers, blockbreakers, tubing systems and so on. Heck, even a basic macerator takes some work to get up and running - and either a decent wind/water/solar farm or running on coal/lava, finite resources.

EE is different in that regard. It's very, very simple to get a lot of power. Just by crafting your first t3 divining rod, costing a single diamond, you'll increase your diamond acquisition speed more than with a quarry or three. From there, you quickly get compact, effective collector farms - which fits in a small room, all by theirselves - no wiring or power needed, and produces diamonds in seconds.

Few people here are "judging" other for their playstyle - the closest thing I've seen is someone writing a post with caps overusage whining about how people "annoy" him "100%".