IC2 and more...

[cerevox]

I thought I agreed with you on the prereleases status, guess I skipped that part? Considering TC2 was in previous packs it would only make sense for Azanor to give the okay once he is done making a full release.

[Teraku]

I thought I agreed with you on the prereleases status, guess I skipped that part? Considering TC2 was in previous packs it would only make sense for Azanor to give the okay once he is done making a full release.

You never know for sure. CJ promptly withdrew his permission to include RailCraft in Tekkit Lite.

Worst part is, he's only hurting himself. The only ones who will like him for doing that are the aggressive FTB fanboys and other people who obsess over Technic's permissions.

[Stone Rhino]

I understand the need to push people to do things and make things (and higher tiered things). But somehow, I feel there just needs to be some sort of powered solar option. Ya'know, something expensive enough to really push folks to mine and get material, but not a complete let down once you connect it.

[Teraku]

Problem with solar panels in every mod is that they don't require any extra effort once set up. And if you make them weak, then people are just going to spam them.

[King Lemming]

Problem with solar panels in every mod is that they don't require any extra effort once set up. And if you make them weak, then people are just going to spam them.

Hence why the solar panel needs to go. A solar array, instead, should be a multiblock structure which is a significant investment - you either go big or go home. Also needs maintenance of some sort; automatic maintenance acceptable if it's something a turtle can't directly do.

I may have been thinking about this.

[Neowulf]

Will these multiblocks include a way to add optional molten salt thermal storage for night production?

[Aurrin]

Problem with solar panels in every mod is that they don't require any extra effort once set up.

Also needs maintenance of some sort; automatic maintenance acceptable if it's something a turtle can't directly do.

I disagree, strongly. This is a large part of why players have such negative impressions of BuildCraft engines, and are annoyed with the TE engines 'locking up', even if it's nondestructive. They want to be able to set up reliable power and then *not* have to revisit it over and over and over. The lengths to which players went to obtain solar power in IC2, even though it was a very low return on materials and the crafting was a time-intensive process, should tell you something about how important that is.

[CanVox]

I think you should see it from the other way around: if the purpose of a game is to provide interesting choices, and the presence of maintenance-free power eliminates those choices regardless of how hard you nerf it, then it seems like maintenance-free power shouldn't be present. A good example is redstone engines. They provide basically no power, but people were spending a ton of time making massive redstone engine banks until engines were prevented from putting power through conductive pipes. It's literally less time and effort, and provides more power and more fun to pipe up some oil, send it through a refiner, and use a combusto, but people were all super concerned that using fuel is some huge time investment so they started making banks of hundreds of redstone engines just to get less than a dozen MJ/t.

EDIT: And ultimately every power source goes maintenance-free eventually, just look at magmatics.

[Timendainum]

Tekkit is a technical mod. Who's primary focus is on automation. Forcing players to babysit things because they explode, freeze up whatever is counter to the point of automation. It's also not fun.

BC conductive pipes are the perfect example of this. If you have a distribution network for power, and one of the outs is to a pump, and the pump runs out of oil the conductive pipes would explode in seconds after the oil pump was done. Having my pipe explode 3 seconds after the pump is done, because suddenly there was a power surplus is not automated, and it wasn't fun at all.

Now, in this particular case the redstone energy conduits totally solve this problem, but the point remains. Don't put in artificial caps, explosion points, and maintenance just because you don't want to hand out free power or whatever.

Remember, we all play Tekkit because we HATE having to mine diamonds for hours and hours and hours on end, and we'd rather spend out time _building_ something cool and fun, rather than grinding boring and repetitive tasks.. When you add an annoying mechanic like exploding or freezing up it is not balancing. It's just annoying, and just a distraction from the fun.

That being said, I have no issue with combustion engines, we have several fully automated engine stacks, which all we have to do is check for oil.

[CanVox]

Tekkit is a technical mod. Who's primary focus is on automation. Forcing players to babysit things because they explode, freeze up whatever is counter to the point of automation. It's also not fun.

Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here. Steam engines don't need to be babysat, but they do need to be automated. Magmatics don't need to be babysat, but they do need to be automated. IC2 solars had to be neither babysat nor automated, and as a result everyone's opening move was to rush LV solars, and everyone's end game was HV solars. That shit will not fly, and it should be pretty apparent why not.

[Timendainum]

Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here. Steam engines don't need to be babysat, but they do need to be automated. Magmatics don't need to be babysat, but they do need to be automated. IC2 solars had to be neither babysat nor automated, and as a result everyone's opening move was to rush LV solars, and everyone's end game was HV solars. That shit will not fly, and it should be pretty apparent why not.

Sounds to me like you and I are agreeing. The fun part of the build here is setting up the automation system. Which is sounds like you are on board with. I just want to make sure the point was made that you don't need to make things annoying to keep them balanced. Let me automate my engines.

I will agree with you that solar panels were OP. Honestly I liked the reactors a lot better.

[theprolo]

Basically, to be balanced it can't give anything for free. There has to be some risk or effort involved IMO. Some people may not agree that this should be the way with everything at face value, but I think in practice at least the majority would agree that it's both more fun and interesting. This doesn't have to be GregTech "spend stupid amounts of resources on simple beginner machinery only to have it blow up when you try to rebuild your roof and it starts raining (or alternatively break your hands)", just something which fits the saying that "you have to give a little to get a little". Reactors were pretty reliable if used properly and fuel could last a decent amount of time without running out with high energy production, but that ever present threat of what would happen if they went wrong both balanced it and made it more interesting. A power generation of any kind (or production of nearly anything for that matter) with no costs or effort involved is basically the root of the problem of "OP" power generation, so avoiding this would be nice.

[Stone Rhino]

Hence why the solar panel needs to go. A solar array, instead, should be a multiblock structure which is a significant investment - you either go big or go home. Also needs maintenance of some sort; automatic maintenance acceptable if it's something a turtle can't directly do.

I may have been thinking about this.

Perhaps something along the lines of a solar farm, requiring some type of controller. Something like what Factorization had was rather complex to make, but sadly, it was the only power it made. It took a hefty bit of material to make power.

[King Lemming]

I disagree, strongly. This is a large part of why players have such negative impressions of BuildCraft engines, and are annoyed with the TE engines 'locking up', even if it's nondestructive. They want to be able to set up reliable power and then *not* have to revisit it over and over and over. The lengths to which players went to obtain solar power in IC2, even though it was a very low return on materials and the crafting was a time-intensive process, should tell you something about how important that is.

CanVox pretty much nailed it. I don't mind if something requires automation to run, but I want that automation to extend beyond "Step 1: Build Turtle, Step 2: Done." Look at MFR biofuel - that is perfectly reasonable. It is not "place and forget", yet it is still reliable permanent generation.

A solar panel (or any generator really) that just produces power while requiring no other infrastructure beyond transmission is incredibly boring and it does a disservice to the pack to include such a thing.

EDIT: Also, TE engines only lock if NOT attached to conduit. The only part of the game where they can really jam up is when you have like 3 of them and NO transmission. That is exactly when you are supposed to be babysitting. As soon as you hook them to conduit, they will NEVER JAM EVER.

[Melfice]

I'm not entirely sure what this system is called (maybe it's the molten salt thing mentioned earlier), but having to build a multi-block tower and separate mirrors would be nice.

It'd be fairly expensive but powerful enough to last you from late early-game through mid-game, but once you manage to get a reliable magmatic or bio-fuel set-up it would be more of a back-up generator.

It's not pulling its weight compared to the rest, but it's nice to have around to catch when your engines run out of fuel.

[Aurrin]

A solar panel (or any generator really) that just produces power while requiring no other infrastructure beyond transmission is incredibly boring and it does a disservice to the pack to include such a thing.

With respect, that is an opinion, not a fact. I like to build technological setups and then use them to build other things. If I have to spend all my time maintaining what I've already built, then eventually I can't move on to new and interesting projects, and I get bored. Not everyone plays Minecraft the way or style and finds the same parts enjoyable that you do, and the sooner you square with that, the happier your players will be.

Also, TE engines only lock if NOT attached to conduit. The only part of the game where they can really jam up is when you have like 3 of them and NO transmission. That is exactly when you are supposed to be babysitting. As soon as you hook them to conduit, they will NEVER JAM EVER.

That's appreciated, and more in the spirit of power that doesn't need eternal maintenance.

Basically, to be balanced it can't give anything for free. There has to be some risk or effort involved IMO. Some people may not agree that this should be the way with everything at face value, but I think in practice at least the majority would agree that it's both more fun and interesting.

Given how many people lament the demise of EE2, I think you're kidding yourself - or at least categorically excluding players who enjoy Minecraft as a sandbox rather than an MMO where you must grind to get ahead.

That's an old debate, I know. But it's inevitably where the cries of 'OP!' lead. No matter how badly you limit players to make it take longer for them to climb the mountain, someone is going to get there first, and others will complain that it's overpowered. Also, everyone will get there eventually, and then the game is over. You'll get far more replayability out of the game by providing new destinations (in the form of technologies, literal destinations, capabilities, etc.) rather than trying to stretch out the one you already have, metaphorically speaking. GalacticCraft is a step in the right direction. Repeatedly nerfing power systems is not. You can't control how people have fun or what they enjoy, and it's futile to try.

The obligatory XKCD response for rage over people enjoying the simpler path: "Stop having fun!"

[CanVox]

or at least categorically excluding players who enjoy Minecraft as a sandbox rather than an MMO where you must grind to get ahead.

I mean if you see piping lava from the nether as a grind to be avoided, then I think we have a fundamental disagreement about what is and is not fun that cannot be overcome.

[Neowulf]

I'm not entirely sure what this system is called (maybe it's the molten salt thing mentioned earlier), but having to build a multi-block tower and separate mirrors would be nice.

Solar thermal. You use concentrated sunlight to heat up water in a steam turbine instead of a combustible fuel.

Molten salt just acts as a heat reservoir so you can store up extra heat during the day and use it at night.

I still like photovoltaics and would like to see atleast something that thematically meshes with galacticraft space stations.

[Aurrin]

I mean if you see piping lava from the nether as a grind to be avoided, then I think we have a fundamental disagreement about what is and is not fun that cannot be overcome.

And what happens, a few months or a year or so from now, when I go to show someone an elaborate space station I built, but nothing works anymore because I didn't go to it every day or two to maintain all the systems that can't be left alone? Not even in a fun way, where it's an 'abandoned space station' with new and interesting challenges, just a jumbled mess of systems that are broken.

You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who expects to be in close contact with everything they build on a more or less daily basis. Not everyone plays it that way.

[CanVox]

And what happens, a few months or a year or so from now, when I go to show someone an elaborate space station I built, but nothing works anymore because I didn't go to it every day or two to maintain all the systems that can't be left alone? Not even in a fun way, where it's an 'abandoned space station' with new and interesting challenges, just a jumbled mess of systems that are broken.

You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who expects to be in close contact with everything they build on a more or less daily basis. Not everyone plays it that way.

What does anything in this post have to do with the post you quoted?

[theprolo]

I'm not saying power generation needs to be impossible, feeble and needing constant effort, I just think that power generation should have some effort or risk involved rather than being "fire and forget". Not necessarily completely nerfing the hell out of it in an attempt to "balance" the game when all you're really doing is creating a huge pain in the arse for the players, just making it so that instead of placing a block then running everything off that forever, for free, at no risk at all, you need to put some effort into it.

I don't mean people should have to babysit their power generation 24/7 to prevent it from blowing up everything (or even just cutting out and stopping anything from doing anything), I don't think anyone wants to do that and for a good reason - like you mentioned, that would prevent you from being able to do anything else without having to keep an eye on your power in case it randomly goes haywire and nukes your base. What I really mean is that a power system should require some sort of cost - perhaps fuel, perhaps risk(large or small), perhaps space, perhaps something else - which fits what it produces.

A constant source of free energy all too often immediately replaces any other power generation. People attempted to use Redstone engines for everything even though they produce next to no power, just because they're free energy, even though for far less resources they could make a far more powerful generator by making an automatic tree farm (or other solid fuel source farm) to fuel Stirling engines, which would be just as free in the long run. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not making efficient power generation unobtainable and underpowered.

[Aurrin]

What does anything in this post have to do with the post you quoted?

The connection is that requiring regular maintenance on everything eventually precludes building large systems: They're a waste of time to build, because you can't leave them alone and expect them to continue to function. Maybe you don't see moving to a new pool of lava every so often as a grind, but that doesn't make the complaint illegitimate. Other people who play the game differently may find it a much larger burden than you do.

[CanVox]

If you see magmatic or biofuel as power sources that are too onerous to use, then this is not the modpack for you, and you should find a new one. You are right that people have different ways of playing, but not every way can be contained in a single pack. Big Dig, though it's well behind at this point, will be updated soon, and it is more suited for people who don't have that much time to play/don't see grinding out resources as remotely enjoyable, and want to concentrate on the actual meat of a lot of different mods.

[King Lemming]

The connection is that requiring regular maintenance on everything eventually precludes building large systems: They're a waste of time to build, because you can't leave them alone and expect them to continue to function. Maybe you don't see moving to a new pool of lava every so often as a grind, but that doesn't make the complaint illegitimate. Other people who play the game differently may find it a much larger burden than you do.

If you are interpreting maintenance to mean "breaks/stops randomly no matter what," I agree with you on large systems. But then you're factoring out MFR biofuel, or other forms of process-based renewability, and those are all fine. The issue is a single block which is place and forget forever.

Which, I'll be adding one of those - a creative mode only energy cell. So if you really see it as a sandbox, then that'll work for you.

[Aurrin]

If you see magmatic or biofuel as power sources that are too onerous to use, then this is not the modpack for you, and you should find a new one. You are right that people have different ways of playing, but not every way can be contained in a single pack. Big Dig, though it's well behind at this point, will be updated soon, and it is more suited for people who don't have that much time to play/don't see grinding out resources as remotely enjoyable, and want to concentrate on the actual meat of a lot of different mods.

I'll admit that's somewhat disappointing, but not altogether unexpected. I just hope Big Dig doesn't eventually fade away or stop advancing. I was so excited to see GalacticCraft in Tekkit, given that many of the larger builds I wanted to do were space-related.