Curse and FTB partner

[freakachu]

The question that should be asked is 'What do I get out of this' You are completely right in that, but ask it at the right time when there is a way for you to get an answer.

are you one of these?

because it looks like you used one to answer that most important of questions. there is no value proposition here for me, or anyone else that isn't you, curse, lex, FTB, or forge. are you really signing a contract with no idea why anyone will want to actually USE this service?

how is that having a vision? where is this vision? lay it on me. what do I get out of this?

[slowpoke101]

no actually the point I was trying to make is I could sit here talking all day, but they are just words. I was saying judge it on its end result. But ok its not like its a secret as to what the vision is. It doesnt really apply to the packs we build, thats all fine and good. This is more aimed at the third party stuff. Lets look at the FTB way of doing things at the moment. Its over restrictive and a bit of a hurdle to get a pack on the FTB launcher. The main issue being we vet every pack and they have to be distributed from our repo. This is mainly a security concern but it creates huge restrictions. It also mean we have to manually check each pack for permissions. The platform way of doing it is the polar opposite if you like, its almost like it completely unrestricted. That means that people can put almost anything into a modpack and Technic distribute it. Again not what I would call a perfect method.

With the upcoming FTB launcher we hoped to introduce a new automated system that would allow you to log onto our website, select the mods you want from a list of pre-approved mods that we had collated and the pack would be constructed automatically from this list. You then upload your configs (the universal config would help with this process) upload any mod that was specific to your pack (if appropriate) and this get added onto our launcher automatically. Its goal was to remove a lot of the restrictions that are currently there. It would also make the process of updating packs much easier.

The new vision is essentially the same, however we wouldn't use our mod pack as a list we would be able to give people access to the entire curseforge library to build and update packs from. Everything we want to achieve, we could do. However Curse can do it better.

[Lothos]

so, this new vision of a la carte modpack making does away with the need to go ask mod owners permissions? Or they are giving blanket permissions to anyone using this new unseen method of modpack making?

If this is in fact the case then why don't the mod owners drop their stupid license requirements now since all they are are personal hostile requirements solely because of Technic?

[freakachu]

no actually the point I was trying to make is I could sit here talking all day, but they are just words. I was saying judge it on its end result. But ok its not like its a secret as to what the vision is. It doesnt really apply to the packs we build, thats all fine and good. This is more aimed at the third party stuff. Lets look at the FTB way of doing things at the moment. Its over restrictive and a bit of a hurdle to get a pack on the FTB launcher. The main issue being we vet every pack and they have to be distributed from our repo. This is mainly a security concern but it creates huge restrictions. It also mean we have to manually check each pack for permissions. The platform way of doing it is the polar opposite if you like, its almost like it completely unrestricted. That means that people can put almost anything into a modpack and Technic distribute it. Again not what I would call a perfect method.

With the upcoming FTB launcher we hoped to introduce a new automated system that would allow you to log onto our website, select the mods you want from a list of pre-approved mods that we had collated and the pack would be constructed automatically from this list. You then upload your configs (the universal config would help with this process) upload any mod that was specific to your pack (if appropriate) and this get added onto our launcher automatically. Its goal was to remove a lot of the restrictions that are currently there. It would also make the process of updating packs much easier.

The new vision is essentially the same, however we wouldn't use our mod pack as a list we would be able to give people access to the entire curseforge library to build and update packs from. Everything we want to achieve, we could do. However Curse can do it better.

alright, that's the vision. why is this great for me? why do I care when I can already grab a modpack and just go? what's the value to the average user? the only slight improvement is that you would be hosting everything, instead of it being hosted elsewhere. it doesn't stop people from uploading other people's mods, malware, etc. which makes it functionally identical to the platform at that point?

for the cost of advertising and whatever other bullshit curse throws into the launcher, the average user gains a list of mods they are most likely going to ignore because they are looking for FTB or whatever pack anyway? well, color me impressed.

[slowpoke101]

I would say your own technic platform disproves that. 2554 pages of modpacks with 10 packs a page, I think theres quite a few people interested in making packs customised for their own individual needs.

[freakachu]

I would say your own technic platform disproves that. 2554 pages of modpacks with 10 packs a page, I think theres quite a few people interested in making packs customised for their own individual needs.

the number of packs on the platform may be large, but the number of people who are playing them is far greater*. there's a hell of a lot more people interested in just playing than there are interested in creating their own pack. additionally, those that are already have a place to do so with what sounds like less restrictions. there's a reason I keep saying "the average user". you know as well as I do that the average user of your launcher or our launcher doesn't know the first thing about putting mods together and doesn't care, they just want to play FTB or hexxit or whatever. those are the people you should be worried about selling this to, those are the people who will make or break you, and those are the people you are not doing anything for.

additionally: "Mod developers will be able to assign flags such as only allowing use in certain modpacks, or being completely open." that kills it right there for many would-be pack makers. the tool is useless if I can't put the mods I want in my pack. the platform came into being in response to people who just wanted to make cool packs and let people play them easily. if you're gonna allow arbitrary restrictions like that then you are planning an inferior product from the start.

so I say again, there is nothing in this of value for the average modded minecraft player. at best it's no different than what they have now, at worst it's a major inconvenience. nothing you have said inspires confidence in me that this won't be the case. even though I'm "on the other side" as it were, I'm not interested in watching you guys shoot yourselves in the foot.

*if you want to get an idea of just how much greater, there are now stats displayed on each pack's platform page. take a look at the top rated ones. multiple thousands of installs per day each, 3-8k players/day each. and that doesn't include any of the official technic packs.

[Hammerson]

Got to agree with that (slowpoke #54). The one thing the FTB launcher has on the Technic Launcher even today is the ease of adding and removing mods to a pack. Technic is better in that

1. it has incremental updates.

2. it doesn't break customizations on updates (as far as I've noticed)

3. it makes it easier to share a customized pack once you've gone to the trouble of making it (at least privately. If you pack is on page 2550, it's as good as private, last time I tried I just got an error page trying to dig that far up/down in the mod listing).

I may be in a minority for wanting to customize, but I'm still here. There's still a ton of us, including primary school age kids who've just seen a cool mod spotlight on youtube.

There needs to be a place where you can go for quick and automatic install of any mod, and if Curse the BeastForge achieves it I'm all for it. But I don't think they should waste hosting on modders who attempt to restrict use in modpacks - once this distribution mechanism is in place, a modpack will be little more than a list of mods, and you can't refuse people to list your mod.

[freakachu]

I may be in a minority for wanting to customize, but I'm still here. There's still a ton of us, including primary school age kids who've just seen a cool mod spotlight on youtube.

There needs to be a place where you can go for quick and automatic install of any mod, and if Curse the BeastForge achieves it I'm all for it. But I don't think they should waste hosting on modders who attempt to restrict use in modpacks - once this distribution mechanism is in place, a modpack will be little more than a list of mods, and you can't refuse people to list your mod.

the trick is that in order for this to be effective, the new curseforge would have to be THE place for mods to be. it hinges heavily on being able to have a large and varied selection available. that will be a challenge as even missing a handful of major/popular mods will severely limit usefulness/adoption. there's a critical mass that will need to be reached and frankly I don't think it will. curse has a reputation and it's not a good one. that alone will be a major obstacle.

[Portablejim]

so, this new vision of a la carte modpack making does away with the need to go ask mod owners permissions? Or they are giving blanket permissions to anyone using this new unseen method of modpack making?

The permissions problems were/are with redistribution. As mod devs can upload the mods to curseforge and host it there (hell, it's the main download link for my own mod), you can grab it directly from there automatically (given the api to get the file URL). It's basically similar to what the ATLauncher would do if you didn't have to click through adf.ly. (actually, you could probably make a one-click install modpack using the ATLauncher without needing permissions if all the mods were from curseforge, because you would be getting each file directly from the mod author)

Acutally, because of the conisistency of curseforge, you could actually just write a web page robot to get the download link to any mod on there.

[freakachu]

Acutally, because of the conisistency of curseforge, you could actually just write a web page robot to get the download link to any mod on there.

this would get you in hot water with the curse guys pretty fast. see the aforementioned WoWMatrix debacle. curse doesn't take kindly to people bypassing their ads.

[Mooseman9]

Moose are you just going round everywhere trolling with these accusations of malware? Wow your life must be hollow, everywhere I go, there you are talking about malware.

So sad.

No, I'm legitimately concerned that there is going to be malware distributed quite easily.

[Hammerson]

this would get you in hot water with the curse guys pretty fast. see the aforementioned WoWMatrix debacle. curse doesn't take kindly to people bypassing their ads.

Then Slowpoke's statement that you can use other launchers with it too would make very little sense. There's got to be an API or something.

I don't know the WoW EULA, but I think and hope Curse have more sense than certain individual modders when it comes to complying with Minecraft's EULA. Demanding that you watch an ad as condition for downloading, there's no way that's not charging money for it, let alone "making money from it in any way".

[freakachu]

Then Slowpoke's statement that you can use other launchers with it too would make very little sense. There's got to be an API or something.

I don't know the WoW EULA, but I think and hope Curse have more sense than certain individual modders when it comes to complying with Minecraft's EULA. Demanding that you watch an ad as condition for downloading, there's no way that's not charging money for it, let alone "making money from it in any way".

I don't hold out much hope for the quality of 3rd party launcher support.

as far as the ads thing, I think you're a little confused. I'm not talking interstitial ads or something like what adf.ly does. just banner ads and such. regardless, this is what the controversy over WoWMatrix hinged on, the fact that it crawled curse's pages for download links and didn't display their ads because of it. which is why I brought it up in relation to the idea of a bot that crawled curseforge to find download links.

[Neowulf]

*stuff*

You want to assure people this won't be as bad as we think? Assure us you and Lex consulted with professional IP lawyers you sourced help from yourselves and they gave the deal a looking over.

Seriously dude, this isn't jealousy or anything, it's concern.

It may have been an unrelated field but I once worked for a tiny local company that was bought up by a bigger guy with assurances that the owner and all 3 of us employees would have jobs with the new place. What they didn't say was we had to go through a 3 month probation period, which no one, including the previous owner, survived. I personally was fired because I once failed to bring a notebook to a meeting to take notes with, never mind I wasn't at that meeting because I was in the hospital bleeding to death but legally they had their excuse and I was out. Turns out the big guy already had a division doing everything we were, they just wanted our name and client list.

[GenPage]

The platform way of doing it is the polar opposite if you like, its almost like it completely unrestricted. That means that people can put almost anything into a modpack and Technic distribute it.

First,

This is wrong, we dont distribute mod packs, we index and provide a means to play them. They distribute their own through Solder from their own servers. The Platform just provides a means for people to find packs and use the launcher to access their resources. The liability falls on the server owners/pack owners that created it. Blaming us for indexing mod packs that don't have permission is like blaming the ISP for not going after a customer that is pirating. Even then it is unclear due to the core nature of modding. You dont blame the system, its how the people use the system that is the problem. Work it out with the mod pack owner first before coming to us about it. A majority of the time it is a private pack someone put together for friends.

upload any mod that was specific to your pack (if appropriate) and this get added onto our launcher automatically. Its goal was to remove a lot of the restrictions that are currently there.

Secondly,

How is this any different than Technic and the custom modpacks users make? Wouldn't this allow people to upload mods that are not "Pre-approved". You cant police a modding community. It just doesnt work. The whole "approval" system is a horrible idea.

If CurseForge is going to have a mod repo and a modpack repo, you would think the linkage between the two would be enough. Mods and the author are displayed with the modpack, they get their credit and a link to their mod with more info? To add an "approval" process is the worst idea I've heard and I hope is not pursued. That would set the Minecraft modding community back.

[slowpoke101]

@GenPage I dont blame Technic, Like I said I dont like it particularly like the way that its built because it allows other people to bypass permissions. But to blame technic is kind of like blaming Pirates Bay for indexing p2p files. But I dont think my approval was ever really needed was it. I was just providing as an example that neither system is perfect.

Your second question is indeed a good one. We literally havent even started on this yet and most certainly do not have all the answers to all the questions at this time, just a broad outline of an idea.

[GenPage]

@GenPage I dont blame Technic, Like I said I dont like it particularly like the way that its built because it allows other people to bypass permissions. But to blame technic is kind of like blaming Pirates Bay for indexing p2p files. But I dont think my approval was ever really needed was it. I was just providing as an example that neither system is perfect.

Your second question is indeed a good one. We literally havent even started on this yet and most certainly do not have all the answers to all the questions at this time, just a broad outline of an idea.

Permissions really shouldn't be needed for a modding community. I think it falls on your view/definition of modding and from a modders POV what you expect to get out of it. But thats a whole seperate matter.

You also cant compare Technic to Pirates Bay either because Technic's purpose is not the illegal redistribution of mods in modpacks. Its the modpacks themselves. But this situation is unique.

I wish you the best with this venture, you have a lot of work ahead of you. I really do hope we get a central place for mods, modpacks, and the end users that is done right. Cheers!

[SXScarecrow]

I have to agree with GenPage's second point. The modding community for Minecraft is just like the USA on the brink of civil war in the 1850's; as long as no one brings up the sectional issues then it just about works. Then, it was slavery that was divisive. For this analogy, it is the whole permissions thing. The community remains divided about it but events are simmering down, until someone decides to bring it all back up again. My personal belief is if someone creates something to be played then they shouldn't try and restrict who gets to play it. It's up to the user to decide how he/she wants to enjoy Minecraft, not somebody else. If I came up to you in the street and said you couldn't wear those clothes that way, you would probably think I was some nutter and tell me to push off, even if I was the original designer of the clothes. The same is true about Minecraft mods/modpack permissions.

Please slowpoke, you have entered into this partnership in order to benefit the parties involved but you really need to reconsider this whole 'approval' thing. I don't challenge your personal beliefs about permissions; its not my place to, however you must realise that further agitation of this controversial issue could prove explosive. While I don't accuse you of deliberately dragging this up again, and of course the way you operate is entirely up to you, you have to admit that there are certain mod authors (not naming and shaming) who are highly likely to abuse any approval system, either for fun, for the sake of a bloated ego, or even for revenge. Decisions are yours at the end of the day but it is not something that I would ever support. You might as well ignite the powder keg yourself and watch the community self-destruct.

[Neowulf]

I have to agree with GenPage's second point. The modding community for Minecraft is just like the USA on the brink of civil war in the 1850's; as long as no one brings up the sectional issues then it just about works. Then, it was slavery that was divisive.

Bad example, slavery is universally reviled. MC modding is more like one of those unstable countries you hear about every week on the news. Multiple religions all playing nice until a stone is thrown through the wrong window and suddenly genocide begins anew.

@GenPage ...

Still waiting on that assurance that you have a lawyer on your side that is unaffiliated with curse in any way.

You know, that thing every single successful business person does when entering contract negotiations?

[dwwojcik]

Bad example, slavery is universally reviled.

It wasn't in the 1850s. People living in the north and west generally hated it while people in the south relied on it as an intergral part of their economy. What was universally reviled by southern slaveholders were abolitionists.

[slowpoke101]

Yes I have and will continue to take legal advice. Also please remember, this isn't just me that has gone into this agreement. A lot of people were consulted beforehand and remain completely in the loop on this entire process.

[Neowulf]

It wasn't in the 1850s. People living in the north and west generally hated it while people in the south relied on it as an intergral part of their economy. What was universally reviled by southern slaveholders were abolitionists.

True, but this discussion isn't aimed at the people of 1850 either.

When you compare A to B with B being a historic practice your target audience finds distasteful, you're telling them A is just as distasteful. You can try to convince people to take the analogy with B in historic context instead of modern and you didn't mean to invoke comparison in THAT way, or you can just find a better example...

Yes I have and will continue to take legal advice. Also please remember, this isn't just me that has gone into this agreement. A lot of people were consulted beforehand and remain completely in the loop on this entire process.

Good to know. I just hope your lawyer is as good as theirs.

[Sleaker]

As far as mod approval goes and integration on whatever launcher Curse has planned here are a few of my thoughts, taken from how curse already handles things.

A) Look at curseforge, including their beta site. Sure it's a different mockup of their other sites but it's the same style of a developer posting up their mods. They get approved (very simple process check for malware yadda and boom approved). And then users can download them.

It will never be Curses responsibility to Quality check Mods. This has always been community, this is never going to change, and it's never going to affect mod authors ability to publish their mods on Curse network. Even if FTB/Forge think they are going to quality check all of the submissions, this wont be the case, and attempting to indicate otherwise is completely counter to what curse has already established. There is no way a mod approval team can handle quality checking of mods given the obfuscated nature of the core MC code. This is already a problem on the Bukkit side of things for all the right reasons, and the code isn't even obfuscated. Curseforge is already live. It's already in use, and it already has an approval process, I highly doubt this is going to change.

C) When mods are freely available from a central place with an auto-downloader there is nothing preventing anyone (read 3rd party or 1st party launchers) from generating packs, or having some form of aggregated list of mods that a server says you need. Thats what computers are for. Attempting to segregate your mod from people cause you don't want a server running it with other mods is silly. It's time to grow up ForgeCommunity. Lex already even talked about leaving the Curse framework open as a requirement.

D)The only difference between creating the modpack and providing a central repo is the distribution method. Mod authors can now be certain their mods will be downloaded from the 'official' place, and maybe you'll get some ad-revenue kickback from curse, maybe, maybe a tiny bit. If you ask nice. While I understand mod authors wanting to get adlinks/revenue, the Forge community as a whole has been particularly horrible on how they distribute mods. So, curse basically taking over this portion of mod distribution will only help get the community working to either produce a better alternative or just rely on curses framework. Whichever way it goes anything is better than the bullshit of attempting to download mods 1 by 1 by browsing MCF just to make something you like and share with your friends. Platform the way it is right now has yet to get past this, but on the flipside, Platform can only get better with what's been stated as requirements from Lex in the deal.

F) All of this 'curse crap' could have been avoided if the Mod Authors had decided not to engage in Dropbox/adlink temporary file location, or non-central file linkage. If You use Adfly on your pack you're just as bad as Curse, and I don't think you have any right to speak out against this deal.

Most of this is haphazardly written and not thoroughly thought out, or incomplete. Take it how you will.

[Pokemane]

Your second question is indeed a good one. We literally havent even started on this yet and most certainly do not have all the answers to all the questions at this time' date=' just a broad outline of an idea.[/quote']

And you probably will never work on it. I sincerely doubt that anyone at Curse (read: the business people, not the people you see at conventions) really cares about anything but making some revenue off the pageviews that FTB and Forge will get them. If there's an honest-to-goodness "thing" in the works, then hooray. Options are great. But personally I don't think that we're ever going to see anything more than a token of anything "cool" from Curse out of all of this.

[ThePagan]

Has curse made an official statement regarding this? I've been looking and have yet to find anything.