How Much Lag Does BuildCraft Actually Cause?

[xboxnolifes]

I am soon to be opening a a very hard-worked on server that has been in development for 1-2 months now, and I need to know one last VERY important thing that leads to a big decision.

Does BuildCraft cause a LOT of lag? I have heard from multiple sources that BuildCraft tends to cause a lot of lag on multiplayer with multiple people making big contraptions that include pipes. If this is so, I am going to need to disable BuildCraft and make people use RedPower instead. I don't really want this to happen as I, personally, love BuildCraft with all of its pipe's functions. I also dislike RedPower's lack of power sources.

The server will be a Hardcore, Factions, PvP server, and because of this, people will have well fortified bases that are probably out of reach from the sun (solar power).

The Server's Initial Release Specs

(These will be upgraded whenever needed)

-2GB RAM

-Unlimited SSD Space (Unlimited meaning MORE than enough for Minecraft!)

-Unlimited Bandwidth

So, I have these questions:

How much lag does BuildCraft cause?

Where does the lag come from? (Pipes, entities in pipes, World Anchors, ETC)

How much lag would I reduce by disabling BuildCraft? (Estimate)

Would you, personally, think disabling BuildCraft is worth it?

[OmegaJasam]

CPU wise, espeacly in older versions, it's using up a chunk even when doing /nothing/. I thinks thats the biggest complaint about the mod.

Lag wise, it's usualy overflow that causes the most problems. Which is where RP really shines.

Generaly RP2 does almost everything better, so you could probably do without it. But I wouldn't as people are going to want to use it, moreso when new versions come out.

Honestly, your not going to get a good answer here, since there are a lot of varables. Run it, see if it works, if it doesn't experiment to find out what causes it. See if you can just regulate people to not do /really stupid server crashing stuff/ or if you can get plugins for quick repair. You might get more out of banning a couple blocks or educating your server people then randomly slecting mods to remove.

World Anchors are actualy railcraft btw. They're a nightmare on server RAM usage. Consider limiting people to X of them, or at leats keep an eye on them. As each one is like having 1/xth of a player online all the time.

[XSwiftX]

I am fairly new to Tekkit and only have a small friends only server (4 players) but here is what I have run into so far. In a short time we have had to delete 2 worlds and are on our 3rd new world. First 2 we started by mainly using a ton of Buildcraft stuff and discovered that as the contraptions and pipes got bigger and more complex the laggier our world got until we finally nuked it and started over. After doing so twice we are taking a new tactic of mainly using Industrial Craft and Red Power. In fact so far we have managed to not use a single bit of buildcraft and so far everything is working perfectly. We have had to get more creative and work a bit harder but are having more fun. Would it be easier to slap down miles of pipe and a quarry? Of course, but experience has shown in the long run it is far less fun and the end result is not what we had hoped for. But I still have Buildcraft enabled as I do realize there are things it does that the other tech mods can't match and eventually we will have need for some of it.

I am hoping that the Thermal Expansion mod that is in the new Technic pack makes it's way into Tekkit soon.

[Beer]

You're not going to see a lot of lag with buildcraft initially. But once you start getting a lot of pipes moving things, quarries, liquid networks, then you'll notice a difference. That's only to say if everything goes as planned. It usually doesn't take long for a pipe to break or something to overflow and cause a massive spill, resulting in client crashing lag.

That said, it's not necessarily bad to have but if people on your server are competent with building machines, they should be using redpower over buildcraft to eliminate item spills and overall lag.

[xboxnolifes]

CPU wise, espeacly in older versions, it's using up a chunk even when doing /nothing/. I thinks thats the biggest complaint about the mod.

Lag wise, it's usualy overflow that causes the most problems. Which is where RP really shines.

Generaly RP2 does almost everything better, so you could probably do without it. But I wouldn't as people are going to want to use it, moreso when new versions come out.

Honestly, your not going to get a good answer here, since there are a lot of varables. Run it, see if it works, if it doesn't experiment to find out what causes it. See if you can just regulate people to not do /really stupid server crashing stuff/ or if you can get plugins for quick repair. You might get more out of banning a couple blocks or educating your server people then randomly slecting mods to remove.

World Anchors are actualy railcraft btw. They're a nightmare on server RAM usage. Consider limiting people to X of them, or at leats keep an eye on them. As each one is like having 1/xth of a player online all the time.

Oh yeah, forgot Anchors were RailCraft. Also, they are going to be disabled as they are unfair and can make afk-able machines OP.

I will probably disable it as I see, as expected, that it's the broken pipes/entities causing lag spills.

Like I mentioned, the only thing RP2 is lacking, is power sources. Certain machines need power (sorters, ETC), where as BC used pipes. I think people will get past this and put a LITTLE more effort into making what they can do with BC.

However, thank you all for the great, elaborate responses.

[Xirema]

I think people will get past this and put a LITTLE more effort into making what they can do with BC.

Funny thing is, though, is that while it's a little more complicated understanding how things work in Redpower as opposed to Buildcraft, I've found that my pipe systems are almost universally cleaner and less complicated than they were with Buildcraft.

One thing I'd advise, though: consider disabling block breakers. (Emphasis on the word "consider"; I'm not telling you to outright do it.) One big source of lag in Tekkit is from running lots of cobblestone generators to make scrap (or EMC, if you have Equivalent Exchange enabled, which I wouldn't) for furnaces/generators/Fabricators. Getting rid of this means killing a lot of functionality, but if lag is really a big problem, then you'll have to consider block breakers as one possible source for problems. (A few other blocks would qualify.)

[warpspeed10]

You really need to really consider the repercussions that come from disabling something so integral to a mod such as redpower and rail craft. With Redpower, block breakers and deployers are used in almost every complicated build (particularly ones incorporating frames and frame motors). As for Railcraft, world anchors are absolutely essential in making your systems clean and streamlined. For example, A cart recall or train management system will not work without anchor carts to keep the wireless receivers, transmitters, and trains loaded.

A server with a successfully built large rail system shows that it's owners are organized and dedicated to the server. It is also an immediate draw for new players leaving spawn. A train ride to warp wild is MUCH more fun than simply typing /warp wild.

[Beer]

Like I mentioned, the only thing RP2 is lacking, is power sources. Certain machines need power (sorters, ETC), where as BC used pipes

What people keep forgetting is that buildcraft requires power to operate its pipes wheras redpower functions mainly on a simple redstone signal. Yes, retrievers, sorters and other higher tier machines require blutricity, but -every- pipe in buildcraft requires 1 wooden pipe and an engine to power it, no matter how you shake it. It's just easier to overlook because you don't have to route the power, instead you just plop down a redstone engine and forget about it. But it -is- power.

One thing I'd advise, though: consider disabling block breakers. (Emphasis on the word "consider"; I'm not telling you to outright do it.) One big source of lag in Tekkit is from running lots of cobblestone generators to make scrap (or EMC, if you have Equivalent Exchange enabled, which I wouldn't) for furnaces/generators/Fabricators. Getting rid of this means killing a lot of functionality, but if lag is really a big problem, then you'll have to consider block breakers as one possible source for problems. (A few other blocks would qualify.)

I think it's mainly the massive amount of produced items than it is the block breakers/deployers themselves. Bear in mind that these have more uses than simple cobble generation. Many people also use block breakers to help fuel nuclear plants by way of turning snow (from snow golems) into ice. Not to mention redpower created quarries and a plethora of other uses that come from deployers and block breakers. In fact there is a guy in IRC who's been asking how to work around deployers because the server admin banned them. It's making his tekkit life miserable having to find work arounds for so many things he wants to do. So like you said... consider. I love that you said this, so please take this more as an added criticism and not negative in any way. I wish more people were less "BAN THIS BAN THAT" and more "Consider the options". Great post. I don't say that often at all.

[xboxnolifes]

One thing I'd advise, though: consider disabling block breakers.

I may consider as I have heard that they have a dupe linked to them. If this is found to be false, I will allow them.

(or EMC, if you have Equivalent Exchange enabled, which I wouldn't)

After many hours of contemplating whether or not to disable it, I have decided to keep the EMC aspect of EE2, while disabling the REALLY OP aspects of it (most of it XD)

(A few other blocks would qualify.)

If you would care to explain them, I would be grateful I'm not familiar with RedPower.

With Redpower, block breakers and deployers are used in almost every complicated build (particularly ones incorporating frames and frame motors). As for Railcraft, world anchors are absolutely essential in making your systems clean and streamlined. For example, A cart recall or train management system will not work without anchor carts to keep the wireless receivers, transmitters, and trains loaded.

This server, as stated, will be a HARDCORE, PvP oriented server. It will be made around the idea of PvP/Raiding with Tekkit as an additive, not a Tekkit server where you can PvP, if that makes sense For the most part, people will not have MASSIVE creations beyond loadable chunks in their base. I, as an experienced Faction server player, have only had up to a 100x100, Sky-Limit to BedRock base at most. Everything in the base was loadable and functioned from any location in the base

A server with a successfully built large rail system shows that it's owners are organized and dedicated to the server.

This would be nice; however, my spawn is a massive grand spawn. It includes a nicely built shop, PvP arena, Donor Shop, Jails, Player Shops, and rollercoaster (may be more added upon release). I dislike server with huge city that have no use except decoration. I find it annoying and just gets in the way XD. However, I do like the rail system, so I may have to learn more about railcraft, and implement it into the next map on a map reset.

[littleweseth]

One thing I'd advise, though: consider disabling block breakers.

As a server admin, I've found that block breakers and deployers are fine so long as you have rules limiting them to "reasonable" usage. I allow my players four cobble generators each. My players are honest and tend to follow the rules, so I didn't have to ban things entirely.

Buildcraft quarries and pipe systems (especially large networks of diamond sorting pipes) are a much worse problem for lag. I haven't removed Buildcraft entirely, but I have limited players to one 32x32 quarry each, and expressed my strong preference for Redpower2 pipework in new installations. (The only reason I'm retaining Buildcraft is for quarries and fillers. There's nothing else it does that Redpower2 doesn't do better.)

[Beer]

As a server admin, I've found that block breakers and deployers are fine so long as you have rules limiting them to "reasonable" usage. I allow my players four cobble generators each. My players are honest and tend to follow the rules, so I didn't have to ban things entirely.

Buildcraft quarries and pipe systems (especially large networks of diamond sorting pipes) are a much worse problem for lag. I haven't removed Buildcraft entirely, but I have limited players to one 32x32 quarry each, and expressed my strong preference for Redpower2 pipework in new installations. (The only reason I'm retaining Buildcraft is for quarries and fillers. There's nothing else it does that Redpower2 doesn't do better.)

One thing to consider is that IC2 Miners with an OV scanner installed in them will dig down and scan for anything decent in a 9x9 area. The bonus to these is that you can have a network of these to encompass an area equal to that of any quarry, get all the good stuff, and not marr the landscape with massive holes.

[nethervoid]

What you can do with world anchors is disable their use, placement, and breakage with permissionsex, but allow the same for admins. That's the approach I've decided to try. Only I can place anchors on my server, which severely limits the amount of automated machines a player might try to have running. I put anchors in small cities and then I have placed a couple anchors in our 'quarry' area.

Funny thing about buildcraft vs redpower, the more I play tekkit the more I find myself using redpower. Redpower systems just feel inherently smarter than buildcraft. Also the sorter is so much more powerful than the diamond pipe. I have a sorting system with about 15 sorters x 40 available item sort slots. That's a lot of sorting power!

[Beer]

Redpower systems just feel inherently smarter than buildcraft.

You hit the nail right on the head. You know you're on a smart Tekkit server when Buildcraft has been disabled. There really is no need for it anymore because Redpower can do it better and smarter.

Kind of sad though, because like many people, I started with Buildcraft and I enjoy the mod. When ST retired from the project I knew its days were numbered even though 2 reputable guys took the project over.

[joe5]

out of curisity is it true that buildcraft takes up server lag just sitting their?

[warpspeed10]

out of curisity is it true that buildcraft takes up server lag just sitting their?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if by simply placing buildcraft items in the world, you will experience lag? If so that is obviously not the case. The lag comes from when your users do not engineer their systems correctly, and items back up and spill out of the pipes. Redpower is more idiot proof.

[Beer]

Well, larger buildcraft machines do end up bogging things down. Equally as large redpower machines do not.

Dormant machines shouldn't really do much, but I honestly don't know since I haven't seen a buildcraft setup not running.

[Xylord]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if by simply placing buildcraft items in the world, you will experience lag? If so that is obviously not the case. The lag comes from when your users do not engineer their systems correctly, and items back up and spill out of the pipes. Redpower is more idiot proof.

I think he means that BC reduce performances simply by being installed, an I did hear about such issues, but I couldn't prove it myself, nor did I ever notice it.

[joe5]

indeed, i heard that just having it on can masivly contribute to server load but if that is not the case then that is a very good thing

[OmegaJasam]

On older verisons (this may have been fixed, and I am only repeating what I have read) the CPU load of buildcraft was significant even when there were no buildcraft items at all (Passive checks for something?)

On the World Ancors, the new server version has new ones separate from railcraft. It might be worth letting people have a few of them. My main thought is teleporters between bases would be an awsome way to get around in such a PvP server, but they require the chunk to be loaded.

Honestly, the best thing to do if ou ask me is to see if your server can handle it, then tweak and optimise as needed. Especally if you can find a few people willing to teach people RP. Quarrys are far too popular for people to not miss, but Quarry -> buffer -> RP Tube can make light work of the load.

[Beer]

Well what I have come to understand about buildcraft and lag, it's not buildcraft itself that causes major lag, it's when it handles objects. It doesn't do it as well or efficiently as redpower. So you move things around in buildcraft pipes, items or liquids, and it just is a lot to process. The more pipes, the more objects, the more lag. You won't see the same result in an equal setup with redpower.

[pherce]

I am soon to be opening a a very hard-worked on server that has been in development for 1-2 months now, and I need to know one last VERY important thing that leads to a big decision.

Does BuildCraft cause a LOT of lag? I have heard from multiple sources that BuildCraft tends to cause a lot of lag on multiplayer with multiple people making big contraptions that include pipes. If this is so, I am going to need to disable BuildCraft and make people use RedPower instead. I don't really want this to happen as I, personally, love BuildCraft with all of its pipe's functions. I also dislike RedPower's lack of power sources.

The server will be a Hardcore, Factions, PvP server, and because of this, people will have well fortified bases that are probably out of reach from the sun (solar power).

The Server's Initial Release Specs

(These will be upgraded whenever needed)

-2GB RAM

-Unlimited SSD Space (Unlimited meaning MORE than enough for Minecraft!)

-Unlimited Bandwidth

So, I have these questions:

How much lag does BuildCraft cause?

Where does the lag come from? (Pipes, entities in pipes, World Anchors, ETC)

How much lag would I reduce by disabling BuildCraft? (Estimate)

Would you, personally, think disabling BuildCraft is worth it?

Our server just moved over to Tekkit about a month ago. At first, we said "ah let's have fun". We left on full EE, all mods, everything. About a week later, we were averaging 40 users and 5 tps. Of course Nolagg will not show you where the issue is, because it isn't a bukkit plugin problem. Your best option is going to be something like VisualVM. This will show you at the class level which mod/plugin is sucking up your resources.

After examining the snapshots of our server, we decided to get serious and roll a new map while limiting/removing certain mods. BuildCraft was the #1 culprit of high usage classes, by a long shot. We disabled BC on the new map and it's been pretty smooth since then. Even brand new people are willing to give RedPower a shot as long as you have the patience to explain to them why you chose to disable BC and how RedPower can be effective. Those kids love their quarries though...

In reality, if lag is your main concern then I have 2 suggestions for you. Get on RAMDisk and watch out for massive EE farms. We found one last night that was dropping the server to 2-5 tps all on its own. Ridiculous.

[xboxnolifes]

I will probably end up disabling ALL buildcraft pipes, since most lag is cause for spills. if I find other sources, I can simply disable them.

[Skuli]

I took a clone of my server (with many Buildcraft machines) and compared CPU uage with and without Buildcraft mods installed.

There was no difference. I don't believe Buildcraft, in and of itself, causes any additional overhead, but the machines and overflowing pipes certain could.

[xboxnolifes]

I took a clone of my server (with many Buildcraft machines) and compared CPU uage with and without Buildcraft mods installed.

There was no difference. I don't believe Buildcraft, in and of itself, causes any additional overhead, but the machines and overflowing pipes certain could.

We never said that just installing buildcraft caused lag, as we knew that would be silly (the difference is so miniscule that you don't notice). It's how it handles entities and prevents floods.

[Skuli]

We never said that just installing buildcraft caused lag, as we knew that would be silly (the difference is so miniscule that you don't notice). It's how it handles entities and prevents floods.

Who's this "we" you're talking about?

"CPU wise, espeacly in older versions, it's using up a chunk even when doing /nothing/."

That's what I'm addressing. Just having buildcraft installed doesn't appear to increase CPU usage, even with a few machines laying around idle.