Lothos Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 ease back a bit slowpoke. Now, take a bit of thought on the first bit on your research. I only today got to thinking about those two quotes from kaker, and yes they are always the two used to label the attitude of kaker I see elsewhere. No, I confess I didn't go and verify timings but at the same time, how fast did the yog explosion happen and how long did it take the technic team to get organized and ducks in a row. For people with RL to deal with AND things for fun, a month to come to grips with the beast unleashed. And I'm sure hostility was a blazing right after yogscast as it was. So I'm sure a grain of salt has to be taken there. You make it seem so black and white when I'm sure it was humanly in the grey. As for the FTB thing, that point was purely of my own observation given the mood on various forums, the legality in question, etc... that was going on. Think for a moment from an outside looking in point of the general user and you'd understand with all the flaming on technic at the time when wind of the FTB modpack was coming i'm fairly sure that was the general thought. Perhaps that was your shared thought on the ad comment as well and its removal. Anyway, I apologize for being wrong on that count. As for me and authoring mods, please do not presume to think I have not done any mod authoring myself and thus unentitled to an opinion on respect. I have done a few UI mods for WoW and UO, and even dabbled in an oblivion mod. twice my wow addons were compiled in with large mod packs without asking and I was happy to see them used. While on the same token, I spent 6 months writing the engine behind a website used internally at Ford only to have any and all recognition for my work given to the stylesheet coder instead right in front of my face and an audience of executives. As for this thread, give it time. Like cheapshot said, alot of them are out of town etc... They are communicative though. Let's hope we can get the relations worked out and smoother for a better experience for all.
slowpoke101 Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Because its not often on an internet forum where you find people willing to look at more than their own side of a discussion.
Lothos Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Because its not often on an internet forum where you find people willing to look at more than their own side of a discussion. sadly that is true its also sad that people will rage vent on a topic before even doing research on either side. but then again, they do the same in politics too.
Adlersch Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 please do not presume to think I have not done any mod authoring myself and thus unentitled to an opinion on respect Just throwing this out there, anyone who believes anyone is unentitled to an opinion on anything really shouldn't take part in this discussion. Modder or not, we all know what respect is, how to receive it, and how to give it. We all can (As humans) educate ourselves on literally any subject too - so if anyone claims I'm (Just an example) unentitled to an opinion on modding or respecting those who do mod simply because it is not my hobby/job/what-have-you, they aren't going to push this discussion in the right direction at all. They don't know how much modding I've done to my own Minecraft, nor what I know about it other than what I've released to the public (Which is nothing). ...Not claiming anyone has, but if anyone gets that in their head, they're likely to get a swift kick in the pants. EDIT: Put Lothos's quote in context.
slowpoke101 Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 See this is where I start to get frustrated, this is not the first time someone has made a post that just totally ignores what I am saying and its not like I am not being completely clear with this. So Lothos starts off with If I were making a modpack and decided to grab some mods to use in it without changing them, my lack of going to them first and asking permission to do so or even saying "hi, i'm using your mod for this" is not disrespectful. This is followed by me saying You are completely entitled to your opinion on what is or is not showing respect. However until you have written a mod and that mod has been used in a mod pack without your consent, then it really has no bearing on this thread now does it. This leads us onto Lothos with As for me and authoring mods, please do not presume to think I have not done any mod authoring myself and thus unentitled to an opinion on respect. I have done a few UI mods for WoW and UO, and even dabbled in an oblivion mod. twice my wow addons were compiled in with large mod packs without asking and I was happy to see them used. Firstly I quite clearly state that you are entitled to an opinion so I do not presume to think anything remotely like you being untitled to an opinion and secondly, just because you were happy to see your mod used in a mod pack, which by the way was in a totally different game, does not therefore lead us to the position that every other developer should feel the same. You were happy to give up your rights to your mods, others are not and that is a decision that needs to be respected, whether or not one agrees with it. Finally for this thread, time means nothing to me. The admin team here can take as little or as much time as they like. Technic changing the way they do things has absolutely no impact on me one way or the other. I am not here participating in this thread for any reason other than I may be in a position to help out and it costs me nothing to do so other than a few FTB fans grumbling about helping technic (and those grumbles tend to disappear once they understand why). No matter what happens with this thread, the FTB mod pack will be coming out. If only because our maps for 1.3 and going forwards are going to be designed around a very specific group of mods and they are not all in technic pack. Also There are some features that our launcher will have in the future that are not native in the technic launcher. This doesnt mean though that there isn't room for more than one legit pack out there, and it would still be cool to see the arguments that exist with the technic launcher just well go away for good.
Eon_Raptor Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 First, I'm new to technic and using MC mods in general. I've played MC on and off for over a year but lost interest. An article in PC Gamer about technic introduced me too the wonders of modding. Technic and Tekkit have opened many doors that I was previously clueless about but I am by no means a Technic fan boy. I really enjoy the idea of mod packs in general. I struggled with simple addons like Rei's Minimap. Having a single launcher makes things much easier. That being said, I agree that respect is everything. Now that I think back on that PC Gamer article I realize it didn't say anything about the actual mods. IIRC it said that Technic adds power to MC but the pic was of an IC2 nuke. I can see how this would alienate mod developers. I'm not sure the best solution to make mod developers fell appreciated. It's hard for me to accept the "take technic down until you have all permissions" option only for the fact that slowpoke is the author of the main competing mod pack. There is the appearance that the underlying reason for this request is to make the FTB pack the ONLY acceptable mod pack. I know that's probably not the case, but its hard to shake the feeling. I'd love it if there could be a single MC launcher that worked with FTB, Technic, Tekkit, YOGSbox, etc. It makes all the mods so much easier to use. Technic indirectly introduced me to slowpoke, ChickenBones, Sengir and so on.
jakj Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 I'd love it if there could be a single MC launcher that worked with FTB, Technic, Tekkit, YOGSbox, etc. It makes all the mods so much easier to use. Technic indirectly introduced me to slowpoke, ChickenBones, Sengir and so on. That level of cooperation and agreement is less than a pipe-dream. You may as well try to teach cats to sing in chorus: You'd be less frustrated. But then, what am I but a crusty cynic. I believe it's possible for multiple modpacks (including Technic) to co-exist peacefully and become equally-respected. A genuine joint effort? I'll be dead of old age first.
slowpoke101 Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Be the only modpack on the block, god I hope thats never the case. TBH though I rather feel most of the people here already know this isn't the case. If I wanted FTB to be the only mod pack out there, the last thing I would want to do is in any way help out with Technic. Also I have already had a few other mod pack authors come to me asking for help with permissions and where possible I have helped them out. The FTB mod pack will be very specific in what type of people it is aimed at. I certainly have no intention of catering to a huge proportion of the existing mods and that is where other packs will come in. Hell I helped one pack today that was essentially the same as the pack we are doing get permissions for a couple of mods they were missing. As long as each pack offers something slightly different to the others then there is plenty of room for whole load of mod packs out there.
Blacktooth Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 This forum and more importantly this thread actually surprised me (oh and much more importantly not just me) Through the course of 10 pages, I could actually feel the shift in attitudes, it was only a slight movement, but it was certainly perceptible. Especially from the moment Cheap Shot stepped into the mix and got involved. I have no idea if this thread will end up going anywhere. I have to say right now if I am completely honest about it, my money would be on it will die with this thread. The things technic are being asked to do carry some risk and certainly mean the pack would be weakened before it got stronger. However I have been wrong in the past and I truely hope I am going to be wrong here. I wouldnt say I have had universal support for what I have written in this thread from devs. But I certainly havent had anyone come and flat out say no, never going to happen either. To some of us that have been around a bit longer than most, this all seems far too familiar and it seems like the goalposts keep moving. First it was ad.fly and Technic was stealing their income. I think that argument has run its course, and most people can see that in the long run Technic actually improved their income. Next came the issue of mod technical support. People hated Technic because it was causing more headaches for the authors from people using the pack and asking questions in the author's MCF thread. It is only natural that when more people use a product, that there will be more question concerning that product. But, because of the nature of Technic's ease of use, the occasional bug, and a lack of technical prowess from a lot of new users there were a lot of issues where people were bugging the authors and not knowing the protocols for reporting problems. The Technic forums were born to address this issue. It must be a great stress relief to say "You need to take that to the Technic Forums". I am not going to go far into all of the unsubstantiated rumors that have been constantly waved around. I have seen it stated that Technic was hijacking the author's paypal links, Technic was logging user's MC name and password, Technic was accepting donations directly, and many many more. I have spent some time on Esper, and browsing around various forums. I have seen these silly rumors echoed by those that frankly should know better. Is it any wonder that anyone would be hesitant to be more public? Some of us have seen mod authors speaking directly with the core members of Technic in IRC. We've seen authors on closed Tekkit servers. We've seen screenshots of the odd written correspondences. It isn't all Technic Must Die. To pretend otherwise is frankly deceitful. Is it any wonder that another bout of drama is met with "Oh god, more of this"? I suspect that another effort will be made. Though I don't know if it will be in the format you are asking for. Maybe partially, at a guess. I would expect it to be guarded. There have also been rumors on this side, and correspondences that have gone ignored. When you are told that this person hates Technic, not given a reason, and are then ignored... Unrelated, but as an example. There are many fans of FTB on this side. Initially, there was a flood of requests to have the pack added to the launcher. The general consensus was that Slowpoke hated Technic, and there was no use in asking. The Forestry Incident is another. Technic originally had Minefactory Reloaded. Literally, everyday someone would show up in IRC asking why Forestry wasn't included in the pack. It was easily the most requested mod by far, and was turned down because at the time it was redundant. MFR did the same things, and Powercrystals was a bro and an integral part of Technic. Technic at the time was pretty much just a download page, and a small group of threads over on Yogscast.com. Someone over there made a similar and separate pack and called it Technic+ or something and it contained Forestry. It took off, and those of us in IRC were flooded with support issues for not only Technic but another mod pack they were calling Technic that had other mods including Forestry. It was likely at this time that Sir Sengir found out. I can recall people in IRC saying that Sengir would virtually roll his eyes at the mention of Technic in his MCF thread, and "not talk about it". Powercrystals quit modding, and MFR faded into the background. People were already using Forestry with "Technic", and we were all told that Sengir was unresponsive. To make a long story short Forestry became a favorite, and bees went nuclear. I can't act like I know all of the inner workings or behind the scenes of Technic. I don't. I do know what I have seen, and I know effort has been made on a number of occasions. I do know that there are many authors that are fine with Technic. I know Technic, in spite of the drama has been a positive force, in the MC community, and I know those that are personally responsible for Technic are reasonable, intelligent, and talented though they'd probably call me some sort of nasty name (butt, weenie, etc) for saying so. I do know that they are particular about what mods go into the pack, and that inclusion is far from nefarious. Ugh, I have spent way too much time on this. Time I should be spending exploring new ways these mods can interact. I also am having trouble not rambling. Heh. I'll close this saying it was good to see CJ and CPW make some effort instead of what I have seen so far. People stewing in their own juices and stoked by the rabble rousers. It would be nice to see less prejudice and more communication. (edit: Technic will likely never disappear entirely. It may fade back to its small roots, but only because something better has come along. I feel pretty confident in saying that everyone involved would welcome that.)
Cheap Shot Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I can't act like I know all of the inner workings or behind the scenes of Technic. I don't. I do know what I have seen, and I know effort has been made on a number of occasions. I do know that there are many authors that are fine with Technic. I know Technic, in spite of the drama has been a positive force, in the MC community, and I know those that are personally responsible for Technic are reasonable, intelligent, and talented though they'd probably call me some sort of nasty name (butt, weenie, etc) for saying so. I do know that they are particular about what mods go into the pack, and that inclusion is far from nefarious. Ur a butt weenie!
jakj Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Only three things could even give a moment's pause to Technic right now: Kaker running out of money (seems unlikely), Kaker running out of interest (also seems unlikely), and Kaker being taken to court (excuse me while I wipe the laughed-out bits of peanut butter and applesauce off my screen). The only issue is in what form Technic continues to carry on, be it our own little cocoon safe from the warbling masses, or out in the open sunshine where we should have been all along were it not for the little rainclouds bouncing around fluffing at us.
The_New_Pro Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Maybe someday the world won't hate the technic pack. Not love and use it but not hate it.
Moderators Munaus Posted September 1, 2012 Moderators Posted September 1, 2012 I still want to know if the other MC-related forums (technic-haters or not) should be notified about this. Heck, I could go under disguise to Flowerchilds forum and tell them about this thread. I will call myself Munaus2, so I wont arouse any suspicion of being a Technic supporter. But if my cover is blown, all they will find is posts of me trolling Kaker in here. So I could make it without getting beaten to death and my eyes gourged out Oh, and maybe warn Kaker when he arrives on his private jetplane? The paparazzi will assault him with questions before he and the team has made a decision. How is this not yet the headlines on every newspaper on the world? Gosh, Technic team, step up!
freakachu Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I think this sums up my thoughts on this "discussion"
Cheap Shot Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I still want to know if the other MC-related forums (technic-haters or not) should be notified about this. Heck, I could go under disguise to Flowerchilds forum and tell them about this thread. I will call myself Munaus2, so I wont arouse any suspicion of being a Technic supporter. But if my cover is blown, all they will find is posts of me trolling Kaker in here. So I could make it without getting beaten to death and my eyes gourged out Oh, and maybe warn Kaker when he arrives on his private jetplane? The paparazzi will assault him with questions before he and the team has made a decision. How is this not yet the headlines on every newspaper on the world? Gosh, Technic team, step up! Nope. This is between us and the modders and no one else. It's not even a matter of who's doing what anymore, its all just poor relations that need to be worked on. Allow us to handle it on our own time in our own way. Rushing things is only going to make it worse. As Jay? pointed out, we're not suddenly resonable nice people, we've always been. It's just since I've started being more vocal it gives people more to think about then hating KakerMix. My access to the net is going to be on and off for a few days so I leave this thread in the care of the moderators. It hopefully wont need much attention, since there's not much left to talk about.
Moderators Munaus Posted September 1, 2012 Moderators Posted September 1, 2012 Nope. But the conversation between modders and you will still be visible to the public? You're not gonna leave us in the dark, are you?
Lothos Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 But the conversation between modders and you will still be visible to the public? You're not gonna leave us in the dark, are you? frankly, the public should never have gotten involved in the first place. the reason the relations are as bad as they are now is a result of the flaming misinformation that the public has done nothing but fan the flames of in the first place. Cheapshot, slowpoke, all you guys...honestly, take all the time you need. If you want to keep it behind the curtain with Oz, go right ahead. I would rather see you guys communicating peacefully and patiently then having rushed flaming debates onstage anyway.
Moderators Munaus Posted September 1, 2012 Moderators Posted September 1, 2012 Never said that the public should get involved. Only that the discussion should be visible to the public. So everyone can see but not reply or post negative and/or hurtful comments. Looking but not touching, simply put
The_DarthMoogle Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I'm not sure that this discussion is at a point where one can wade in, so I shall simply give my unbiassed opinion. It's not a perfect world where everything's open source, and freely distributable, but if a modder doesn't want everyone to play their mod in the manner the player chooses, then it should not have been posted. Take this for example http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/842589-125-power-craft-factory-mod-349-snake-game-for-weasel/ The Licence here is bull. Technic could put this in the pack, and has zero obligation (UK law here) to remove it, provided MightyPork can prove there has been actual loss on his part. I also have no obligation to not decompile the mod, or not post derivatives where I choose. (MCF or any other forums however have the right to remove it, based on their own ToS) However, the modders do have a right to know where their mod is distrbuted to, and it is illegal to redistribute for profit. Why you would not want your mod in any pack is beyond me, although I can understand that there is a possibility of people coming to you and whining for support of older versions is a problem (not a loss, though)
Air_Gamer Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Take this for example http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/842589-125-power-craft-factory-mod-349-snake-game-for-weasel/ The Licence here is bull. Technic could put this in the pack, and has zero obligation (UK law here) to remove it, provided MightyPork can prove there has been actual loss on his part. The license confuses me. ... neither post links bypassing the official ones.... ...No-one is allowed to demand money for this mod... Is he not demanding money (though add income) and then saying no-one can? Edit: You're also missing the reason why modders are unhappy.
The_DarthMoogle Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Is he not demanding money (though add income) and then saying no-one can? Nah, that's genuinely illegal for us to 'resell' his stuff, because that's an obvious loss to him.
Air_Gamer Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Nah, that's genuinely illegal for us to 'resell' his stuff, because that's an obvious loss to him. I was wondering if the license conflicted itself, not if it was enforceable by law (Cheap Shot said that we should cool the legality stuff by the way). I think you answered my question anyway.
OmegaJasam Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 My only thought on this matter, is while there is a /lot/ of problems. I'm less then fond of the idea that the mod developers are 'blameless'. Most of them are amazing wonderful people. But theres a handful who would rather have drama and their egos saited then anything else. Those 2-3 people have made life as miserable as any of kakers careless comments. They've fostered this community vs community feeling which all the resonable people involved have tryed to quell. Throw in the MC forums deleting all the posts from the admins here, the IC2 forums encouraging technic hate, a few mod makers with /rediculious liscences/, and honestly, I do not see a way for everything to have been made well with the technic teams effort alone. ----- And for anouther anoying gripe of mine, Honestly, even if they /had/ asked up front, the few people wanting to be dramtic would of prevented a mod pack ever being made. Heck, before the sesisons Slowpoke refurs to with the mods taking together, I doubt /anyone/ could of gotten permissions for a decent modpack like technic. I suspect if anyone tryed /now/ they would struggle to do it. It's not /just/ about respect, there are a number of mod authours out there who are just jumping on this silly bandwagon of overly restrictive modding. There /should/ be more big modpacks out there then tekkit. The ones that do exist either don't have permissions, or don't have most of the desirable mods. I'm not fond of all the mod makers who disrespect /everyone/ by trying to force them to spend a lot of time doing it manualy. Even with things like Direwolfs config, it takes a few hours between going to all the links, finding the right versions, downloading them all, installing them all... And thats if you make /no/ mistakes. It feels outright toxic and wrong. (Yes I know they have the right to do it. But a right to be an egotisitcal jerk, still leaves you being an egotistical jerk. e.t.c.) It's definatly an issue of respect at this point (previously there was revenue and support), but I don't see a lot of the community making that easy on the authours side in general. I'd love to see a community full of resonable mod authours, giving people permission properly, so we can all properly hate on guys who /are/ stealing content, rather then this ethicaly ambigious mess that devides the community between trying to support authours and the desire to use them in a conviniant way. -- I'll try to ignore the bees issue. It was unexcusable, hopefully he learned that flat out malicious code is not ok, and it will serve as an example to future mod authours where the line is. (IE, disabling? fine. Malicious? No.) Actually, since it was mentioned in the annolagys and such, does anyone have an example of Sangir publicly stating he didn't want his mod in the pack? That was one thing during that whole drama fest that was reguly claimed not to exist. If it did, it would be great to have as refrence for correcting yet anouther one of the myid of factual errors.
Adlersch Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 We were asked to drop Sengir and the whole Forestry thing a while ago, IIRC. Forestry's gone and won't be coming back.
Lothos Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 It was my understanding no communication from Sengir was received at all. Let alone somewhere publicly copyable like a forum post or irc chat log.
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