Slowpoke (Feed the Beast creator) on the Technic pack

[OmegaJasam]

I know that, it was just an aside. One that I didn't really need after changing the earlyer part. I need to write these posts in an a larger window so I can keep track of what I've said, then edited for being pointlessness. e.t.c.

I am still curious on the link though. Not that it matters to the conversation at hand at all, I just figured since Slowpoke has said he had sated it publicly, it might exist, in which case I, and a lot of other people here shouldn't be saying otherwise. That was the part I actualy ment to keep. Perhaps I should edit out the other bit?

[Adlersch]

Just leave it as-is I would say. Nobody should really mind it, especially after your latter post. Anyone who nitpicks at it without reading the post above mine really fits into the category of 'starting pointless fights, doesn't need to be in the discussion.'

[The_DarthMoogle]

I just can't help but see sunshine and rainbows over the broken bridge, that only need be repaired by not even an apology, but just a backtrack on Sengir's decision.

As much as what's done is done, and we should drop it, it still astounds me that no one is really seeing sense in the matter, and all it needs is a leap of faith.

I mean, really, in whose interest is it to gripe about having your mod in any pack, or to deny them access to the source code or anything like that (or attack a large portion of your fanbase), save for a modders precious ego and/or ad.fly pennies.

It's stopped being about the reason the mod was created in the first place - delivering fun and quality content to we, the players.

As I said before, if you make a mod, but don't want people to play it the way they want to

(in this case a convenient, happy, non-maligned and supportive community) then they should not have made that mod.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

To be fair, the personal motivations of the mod makers isn't too relivant, and talking about them in this thread will probably put a few hairs up their asses. As far as I'm concerned, dropping it was the best thing ever done. It doesn't need to be discussed, not here, at least. Nothing productive is going to come from it, and everyone's opinions on that matter is going to be set in stone.

[Uristqwerty]

Some people may argue legal things, since all mods require Minecraft to run, right? Well, earlier today, I got CraftGuide to run without Minecraft (for unrelated reasons that have a lot to do with "startup time" and "no recompiling"), without even altering any of its code. It involved removing MCP/Forge's Minecraft project (no more Minecraft code), creating an empty class for each import that Eclipse complained about, creating a dummy method for each method eclipse complained about, and then filling in texture loading and font drawing with my own code so that there could at least be visible stuff on the screen.

As for licenses, when I started out I assumed things would probably be running on something along the lines of Wheaton's Law ("don't be a dick") (not by that name, though, just the general concept), until I was preparing to post the threat on the MC forums. Then I encountered a sticky *encouraging* the use of a (very extreme) license! I do wonder how many people had similar experiences... (Note: as a result of that post, I did include my own, but it was basically "If you PM me about including CraftGuide in a modpack, then I'll say yes. Otherwise, no.", and has changed a few times, each time getting further permissive (now it's something along the lines of "yes you can use it, though I wouldn't mind if you told me that you were" (nested parentheses)))()/*call function pointer*/ //C joke? Maybe. Probably not all that funny, though.

[Cheap Shot]

Yeah, MCforums hasn't helped all the drama. I remember reading that copyright thread there where they were posting "example" extremely strict copyright statements and licenses you could use but they were all just made up on the spot by angry 14 year old armchair lawyers and were worthless. Super super counter productive for a modding community and just encouraged the hostile unproductive environment. Part of the reason we have our own forums here is because MC Forums is just so so awful.

But anyway, I said no more legal chat. I can feel my IQ lowering already.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

We should focus on what's important. How terrible MCF's is.

[Xylord]

We should focus on what's important. How terrible MCF's is.

That's at least one thing we truly all agree on.

The sun emits light.

Water is made of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen.

Alienwares are overpriced.

MCF is fudgin' terrible.

Now that's some community solidarity.

[slowpoke101]

Genuine question. not being funny at all here but what is the problem with Minecraft Forums policy on permissions and how they go about it. I see Cheapshot mentioning a copyright thread but the only thing I have found is the rules thread that has a link to the creative commons licence page. No recommendations about which one people should use or anything, just a link to the page. The only comment I see them making is that you must display some sort of licence. I dont really intend to start a debate here, just looking to be pointed in the right direction.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum-57/announcement-54-mapping-and-modding-section-specific-rules-and-information-8242012/

Link I found that had copyright info.

[The_DarthMoogle]

I don't want to dip into legalities and things, but copyright doesn't stand here. Copyright doesn't stand anywhere.

As for intellectual property, that's entirely just and applicable.

However, even without modders initial awareness and permissions, Technic gave proper accreditation. No theft was involved whatsoever.

[freakachu]

Genuine question. not being funny at all here but what is the problem with Minecraft Forums policy on permissions and how they go about it. I see Cheapshot mentioning a copyright thread but the only thing I have found is the rules thread that has a link to the creative commons licence page. No recommendations about which one people should use or anything, just a link to the page. The only comment I see them making is that you must display some sort of licence. I dont really intend to start a debate here, just looking to be pointed in the right direction.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum-57/announcement-54-mapping-and-modding-section-specific-rules-and-information-8242012/

Link I found that had copyright info.

as I understand it, the requirement that all mods have an included license is pretty much the root of the problem. it changes the attitude of people posting mods from, "hey here's a cool mod I made guys" to "hey this is MY mod by ME for ME and it's MINE MINE MINE!"

I hope you can see the difference there and why it's not helpful in the end.

combine that with some of the worst moderators I've ever seen and you get a recipe for a really, really terrible community that is entirely too wrapped up in building their little mod kingdom.

[Cheap Shot]

you get a recipe for a really, really terrible community that is entirely too wrapped up in building their little mod kingdom.

Choose your queen my Lord! Your mod kingdom awaits! 1 click for a roman orgy!

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/274523-to-mod-creators-copyrights/ This is one of the copyright threads that always seemed off to me. The amount of legalese in this mod stickied thread is a bit on the unreal side. Other modding communities don't do this. Never mind the fact that the basis of the thread is laughable. Legal standing in case xyzcraft puts your mod up on their site? No one is going to go to Civil court over something like that. It's contributing to toxic attitude in the community over there that makes the entire forums read like a bad Ayn Rand novel.

Also, it's a bit misleading, because all mods are derivative work (Derived from the minecraft code that is edited to get them to load in the first place.) As such, their rights under US law are more limited than non-derivitive copyright.

Here it is from Mojang itself:

"What You Can Do

If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use this for griefing, though, and remember not to distribute the changed versions of our software. Basically, mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those), hacked versions of the Minecraft client or server are not (you can't distribute those).

Any tools you write for the game from scratch belongs to you. Other than commercial use (unless specifically authorized by us in our brand and assets usage guidelines - for instance you are allowed to put ads on your YouTube videos containing Minecraft footage), you're free to do whatever you want with screenshots and videos of the game, but don't just rip art resources and pass them around, that's no fun. Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don't sell them for money. We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't."

Essentially, like modding with most other software, it's all down to Mojang and it's policies, which it's free to change at will. As they say themselves:

"We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without notice, with immediate and/or retroactive effect."

[The_DarthMoogle]

The thing is, I appreciate the purpose behind that thread. There are bazillions of Minecraft mod download sites.

Another thing is, those licenses are still not legally binding, so in effect those sites can still carry on regardless because they give the proper accreditation, and they can claim the ad-revenue as a necessity.

Pretty much every single side is abusing this system, and an ideal world would have everything open source.

How much effort would it take for modders to make things open source? None whatsoever.

How much would everyone, including the players, benefit from this? I have absolutely no idea.

Would everyone stop being so butthurt about everything? Yup.

[staronethree]

Most companies actually add that statement of changing anytime. I know Time Warner Cable, AT&T, Verizon, and even a few software companies do that as well.

Now, as for the requirement of having a copyright/license on your mod, Minecraft isn't the only community to add it as a requirement. Kerbal Space Program requires all mods to provide Source and License to accompany your mod.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

Kerbal is a small community with it's share of problems. Similar to minecraft. Large modding communities, like say, the nexus for mods on Oblivion do not have this requirement.

[staronethree]

Kerbal is a small community with it's share of problems. Similar to minecraft. Large modding communities, like say, the nexus for mods on Oblivion do not have this requirement.

Ah okay.

Edit to add: Since we are talking about modding and communities I wanted to add something that I found on the Valve Developer Wiki located here it states:

Even if a mod is free or not, the creators of any original work included within it (sounds, materials, models, source code) own the copyright for their work. This is true if you are a high-school kid, a corporation, or just some other modder who puts stuff together for fun. Every author gains these rights by default when they create their work.

[Blacktooth]

Genuine question. not being funny at all here but what is the problem with Minecraft Forums policy on permissions and how they go about it. I see Cheapshot mentioning a copyright thread but the only thing I have found is the rules thread that has a link to the creative commons licence page. No recommendations about which one people should use or anything, just a link to the page. The only comment I see them making is that you must display some sort of licence. I dont really intend to start a debate here, just looking to be pointed in the right direction.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum-57/announcement-54-mapping-and-modding-section-specific-rules-and-information-8242012/

Link I found that had copyright info.

Yeah, the page is very recent(according to the title), and completely different that the one KoL linked to on the Mods forum which is the one most of us are familiar with. I'd say it is safe to say that most of us avoid the MCF, and would most often only visit Mods. Chances are none of us have seen that post which is far more reasonable and intelligent.

That said, It would be nice if MC modding was more like other modding communities where the words Copyright and License are rarely heard or are at least far less hysterical about it. I can assure you that no one here wants to ripoff any of the authors, and in other communities those issues are self policing with far less noise. But here we are. At least make it sane, fair, and appropriate for the venue.

[jakj]

Implicit automatic copyright is for original and non-derivative parts only, such as art not based on Minecraft's UI like Thaumcraft has, or original algorithms or data structures. If it can't be compiled outside of Minecraft, it's derivative.

[staronethree]

Implicit automatic copyright is for original and non-derivative parts only, such as art not based on Minecraft's UI like Thaumcraft has, or original algorithms or data structures. If it can't be compiled outside of Minecraft, it's derivative.

Correct, but each mod has non-derivative parts from what I understand (Correct me if I am wrong in this, with examples I actually find this topic interesting). Some examples would be over half of EE2 (rings, etc), IC2 (cables and such), Buildcraft (engines and such), Enderstorage, there are plenty more examples. Each add a feature not based on Minecraft, add their own special artwork, etc. The way I read that, isn't derivative but full copyright?

[Jay?]

I'm not sure if you lot missed it somehow, but cheapshot called no-more-sies on the legal chatter.

[staronethree]

I apologize then.

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

To be fair, Jay, we're just answering the question slowpoke asked us.

[Cheap Shot]

It's ok, people were being calm and resonable. Best to let it rest though. It's a go-nowhere discussion with a million factors to consider and no clear definite answer. No more legal chat, no matter who asks what.

[Munaus]

Kakers' finally home!

Forum, Assemble!

Sharpen your ears and hide your kids!

Sound the drums and man the battlements!

Let loose the dogs of war!

On a more serious note, if and when the discussion between modders and Technic team commences', will you keep it publicly visible?

Or are you gonna have a private chat off-the-map, where nobody knows what has been said or decided?

I dont wish that the debate will be disturbed or anything negative striking it, I only want to see what has been said and written.

You could host it in P.A.I.N.S. section, nobody disturbs that one... just a tip