Slowpoke (Feed the Beast creator) on the Technic pack

[Jorcer]

All of CJ's quotes: (Pertinent to pack)

"The Technic team, rather being adults and asking the mod authors they just steal the mod and then ask for permission after they get caught (sometimes). They never asked me about Railcraft and I'm sorely temped to insert my own malicious code." -CJ

"No I don't I already lost them the instant they downloaded the Technic pack. I don't support them and they don't support me." -CJ

"I would find it very hard to believe if you said you've never recieved a paypal donation from a Technic/Tekkit user. At any rate, if removal of your mod from the pack is what you want, I hope you'll resort to the more sensible route of simply asking them to remove it before resorting to surreptitious sabotage." -Arklius80

"Just one donation, from KakerMix in response to the comments in this video. Despite having argued with him in more private situations in the past."

-CJ

"Wasn't the donation made before those comments?"

-Gen0Granger09

"So it would seem. Apr 13th. I did not notice that. Apparently I must retract some of my statements in regards to the donation. Anyway I'm just going to let them continue to do their thing without interfering for the time being. What bothers me most is how they mislead their users anyway. I will also continue to correct anyone who claims they don't use mods without getting permission first."

-CJ

"Is it not enough to want some control over where and how your work that you own is used?" -CJ

"I give almost everyone who has ever asked for permission to use Railcraft in mod-packs permission." -CJ

It's amazing what ctrl + f can be used for ;)

[Killer-of-Lawyers]

Holy shit, the veil? Does that mean that Kaker is like... some kind of vampire?!

Awesome!

Edit: On a more serious note, how is him saying that he doesn't have to prove anything hiding behind a veil?

I don't have to flash my papers at every cross walk to the police, do I? I don't have to prove a lot of things in life. Can you honestly blame Kakermix for saying he doesn't have to prove anything when he's had to deal with this community for a year? Sounds like Kaker's more patient than I am. If I was in his shoes I'd be telling people to fuck off left and right.

Being tired of being asked to jump through hoops to prove legitimacy by a bunch of idiots (At least judging by the average post on the curse forums, or avatars for that matter. Seriously. Posts that are nothing but diamond emoticons made by guys with megaman avatars? It's like walking into a shitty daycare.) isn't just annoying, it's insane and insulting and a bit degrading. So if he told you he doesn't have to prove to you that he's legit, then yeah, he doesn't. Turning around and claiming that his refusal to jump at your command is some kind of veil to obscure a lie is down right disingenuous. It's sickening, and symptomatic of everything that's wrong with this community.

[EzioA]

Large-ass egos. That's what they are.

[NightKev]

Alblaka has definitely publicly stated Technic has permission, and HE is the head of the team, NOT RichardG. RichardG is a relatively new member of the IC2 team and a massive dick at that (when he did the same thing Sengir did, it crashed for anyone using the same set of mods, not just Technic users (iirc)). So great job "clearing misconceptions" slowpoke, I'm glad we have you on the job to make sure we know the truth of the matter.

[jakj]

The fact is, that's happened twice already, and the "community" has shown nothing but support for their actions. So, clearly, we're on our own, and good riddance to them. We have everything we need, right here.

Honestly, I don't see what further use could even come of this topic, since it ended up anyway being just more of the same. May as well let it die.

[slowpoke101]

Hey Cheapshot, in reply to you post #20. My problem is that their are 2 different sides to this story, there is your side where you say that everything is cool between you and all the mod developers in private and there is the other side. I am sure it is common knowledge that I speak to a lot of these developers on a daily basis. A fair few of them are regulars in the Teamspeak channel I run, and I play alongside a lot of them on the pahicraft server. I dont want to give the impression that I am some big deal in the minecraft community with this name dropping. I only mention this to validate the next part.

The conversations I have with the mod developers with regard to technic and tekkit dont have what you would call a friendly tone. On the contrary I have not spoken to a single mod developer who right up to today is willing to openly support technic and our conversations with regard to the pack are generally negative in tone. By the same token though it is important to note that it very hard for me to get any of them to openly post in this thread or on these boards against technic. So back then I could not dismiss the notion that what I was being told was in some part inaccurate and technic had actually received the needed permissions. This is when I spoke to Kakermix briefly via PM's on this board.

It is no my place to quote what is a private message on these boards so it is very difficult to supply a context to the next bit. However I hope I convey it in such a way as to make it understandable.

It is a completely valid point that any discussions between the mod makers and technic. If they wanted to tell me about any discussions they would have. See above really, as I have already said, I had already spoken to the mod developers before even talking to Kakermix. I again spoke to some of the developers this week with regards to Technic Pack and what you are telling the world doesnt exactly line up with what they say to me. I am curious to hear you answer to the next question. I was given the information that after the conversations between you and some of the mod develoers in IRC (for which I was present) with regards to the consent for EE2 and the conditions you were asked to meet that you were going to make attempts to get all the permissions you needed. When I enquired a few weeks later as to how this was going. I was told (and I have checked up on this since to confirm I am not getting this wrong) you had given up on trying to get these permissions.

Finally I understand you do not care what I or Minecraft forums or the so called vocal minorty think. But make no mistake, I do not go around acting on misinformation and I certainly do not go around basing my own opinions on rumours.

However I will end on these 2 questions. They are not difficult questions and maybe you can answer them.

1) Apart from the admin team of technic. Who has seen or validated the permissions that technic has with regards to the mods in the pack? I see a lot of people on your boards claiming that technic is now legit, but has any of them in any manner validated that this is true?

2) Seriously why if you are so confident in your permissions do you not just do what I did back when I was questioned about mine. I had a couple of idiots from another small illegal mod pack make a complaint about the pack I was doing for the FTB Map. I had my thread taken down and instructed not to publicise the modpack due to the fact that I was not complying with the Minecraft Forum Rules. Although the source of the complaint was a pair of idiots, the complaint was legitimate and funnily enough although they may not like this, I actually thank them for bringing it up. I started a thread and inside of 24 hours I had posts from all but one of the mod makers (iChun was on holiday and that permission was added a couple of weeks later.

My point is, if you dont care about MCForums thats cool. But lets just end the argument once and for all. We may be a vocal minority, but we dont need to be. I would love to be able to make maps for Technic and I would love to not have to go through the hassle of setting up websites and launchers and updaters etc etc. But without that thread, I cannot do a thing. I will even help you, set up the thread ask no one but mod developers to post in there. We can go around and ask all the developers to just take 2 minutes to go and post in the thread and we can all end this right now (trust me, if they are willing it is not hard to get them to post, they are not all monsters.

Of course you wont do this though will you. Because we both know, no one is going to post in that thread.

[jakj]

You still are conveniently skipping past the fundamental issue in all of this: Technic's main feature is to make playing modded Minecraft easier for people who are not idiots but still are completely baffled by the idea of editing a block ID in a config file. Don't believe those people are valid? I work with a 60-something man who can rebuild a truck's engine by hand, has a prosperous family into the second generation, and still reads the good classics like Thoreau and Frost, and yet he can barely manage to use the "copy and paste" feature of a text editor. I have tried to teach him that, and he took an entire page of notes to try and understand the concept.

These people exist. These are good people, and are people we should try to help in any way we can, to share our fun hobby with. If you don't think someone can figure out how to play a mod like IC2 or Thaumcraft, without being able to figure out how to configure them manually, you are just drumming your heels on the floor with your fingers in your ears.

Technic exists to make life better for the players. Modders who speak or act against Technic, which -demonstrably- has done no physical, professional, or fiscal harm to any modder, are speaking or acting agasint the best interest of the people who play their mods. Just as Sengir's little tantrum lashed out not at the Technic team, but rather the people who played his mod and happened to be using Technic, you are punishing the players, not the people you want to punish. The people you want to punish couldn't give less of a fuck.

I'm glad there's an FTB mod pack: It doesn't have the negative connotations this pack has, which means the goal will be met: More people will be able to play modded Minecraft who couldn't before. That is what matters: Not a modder's ego, not a modder's creative control. The players.

If you publish a mod for any reason other than having people use it, then you shouldn't've published it; Nothing was stopping you from just keeping it for the personal use of yourself and your friends. If you (or the people for whom you are speaking) think of theirselves more than of others, they are not useful to this community, and were they to leave, the loss of their creativity will be missed, but they will not be.

[MechaCrash]

You've already made up your mind that the Technic team is composed of thieves and liars. I do not know how you expect to have any kind of discussion from here.

[slowpoke101]

jakj I am sure this wont make a blind bit of difference to you, but in the past I have read some of your posts and already come to the conclusion that your an ignorant buffoon. I am sure in real life you are a perfectly nice person, your views however stink of fanboi-ism. You also are commenting on my threads when you clearly havent read a word I have written. I am not skipping past anything, I quite clearly said Technic and Tekkit are good ideas. Mod packs are good ideas, that is not the problem. The problem lies in the way the team went about it. As can be quite clearly seen in that IC2 post, back then at least Kakermix's attitude was he didnt care a bit about the modders and asking permission and what not.

You want to solve this entire problem today. Its really not hard, in fact its incredibly easy. I would be willing to bet you could do it inside of 24 hours. 2 steps is all it would take.

Step 1) Ask Kakermix to step down. Thank him for his contribution but for the good of the pack he would need to leave. 99% of the bad press is totally down to Kaker and his attitude in the early days. He burnt a lot of bridges. Sorry but thats just true.

Step 2) As soon as Kaker steps down officially, put up 1 thread in General Announcements regarding permissions. Then go around all the mod makers and ask them to post on that thread. I do not speak for the developers, but I would happily bet that remove that barrier and your life gets a lot easier.

Edit to reply to Mechacrash

I am sorry but unlike a lot of people I am sure you know. Just because I have a current viewpoint, that does not mean I will not change my mind in the face of evidence that goes against my beliefs. It has been quite clearly demonstrated in this thread and not just by me that The permissions technic claim to have are not quite as solid as they would have you believe.

So I reverse your comment and throw it right back at you.

You have already made your mind up that the Technic Team are wonderful people who go round holding hands singing hymns in the day time and at night come home and make everyones life easier by making the technic pack. Oh and they do so with the full consent of all the individual developers.

I am here because I welcome the discussion. If anyone has anything valid to say I welcome it.

[noonespecial1]

can someone explain this for me?

why do you even need permission to add a mod to a modpack?

except for addfly money there is no sane reason why you would not be allowed to give out someone elses mod.

what is the reason?

[jakj]

You accuse me of fanboy-ism because you think my comments cannot be generated by me actually believing what I say. How am I supposed to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks I'm either foolish or delusional? I have no idea, so I'm not going to bother to try.

Good day.

[slowpoke101]

No I believe you are an ignorant bafoon because you start your post off with the line

You still are conveniently skipping past the fundamental issue in all of this: Technic's main feature is to make playing modded Minecraft easier for people who are not idiots but still are completely baffled by the idea of editing a block ID in a config file.

So everything else that follows is based on that concept.

Yet if you had taken the time to actually comprehend what I had written then you would understand that

Now having said all this, there are a few other things that I believe need to be made clear. Technic and Tekkit are really good ideas,

from my OP and in the very next sentence

Getting back to the point. Technic and Tekkit as a pack are good idea's they are just implemented by people who generally dont care about the makers of the mods.

I dont know about anyone else, but from where I am sitting my quotes directly address your 'fundamental issue'

Furthermore, your earlier post

Can't be bothered to read past the nonsense about respect. Disrespectful to use the mod in the pack? How about disrespectful to your mod's users to the point you want to deny them a convenient and easy way to play your mod?The "holdout" modders don't give a fuck about their players and just want the status. Hypocrisy, double-dealing, and underhanded tactics, and to blazes with the people who just want to play.As far as I'm concerned, if you want to be a dick about your mod, just take it and leave. We don't want you.

Sorry but that is the kind of attitude that got us to this point. Yeah the mod developers wish was to deny the end user a convenient and easy way to play the mod. That is ignorance at its finest, it had nothing to do with denying people an easy way to play the mods. If that was the goal, Then why is it the FTB pack and others have been given explicit written consent to use these mods in packs. I can answer that for you,

Because they were asked

Thats honestly the only difference. Kaker made the pack with the attitude of We do not ask permission, we take and we do what we choose. We will worry about permissions later. The rest of us took the 2 minutes to go to the developer and actually ask for permission.

I see a lot of people in here going blah blah blah, mod developer bad guy, technic good guy. But not one person has been able to actually counter any argument I have put forth, not one person can refute any claim I have made and actually provide sources for their arguments (you know like I did). I am happy to have the debate with you all. But at least let us have a debate, bring something to the table. I am honestly not some closed minded arse. If someone can bring some sort of evidence that goes against what I am saying, I am happy to conceed points.

[noonespecial1]

Because they were asked

but why do this matter? their work are already avabile on the internet for free. so why do they care?

[killerx09]

I'll be staying neutral here, guys.

@Slowpoke

The majority of the Technic community goes along the idea that "The end justifies the means." This basically means that if the end product is of a benefit to everyone, it generally is accepted.

The Technic Pack was unplanned when it was being made. Like numerious times mentioned before, it was a mod pack on the something awful for his friends before the Yogscast came in and made it publicly known. The rest is pretty much history.

@Kaker

If you truly want to get Technic to be a legitimate modpack, I suggest having a few chats with Slowpoke.

Off-Topic, Slowpoke, what is the official name for the modpack anyway?

EDIT: @ noonespecial1:

They care because they were the ones to make the mods. Imagine you go and spend hours upon hours making something. Then it suddenly gets taken by a bunch of people who then uses it again without your permission. I know I would be angry.

[slowpoke101]

Because rightly or wrongly. Some developers believe they should have the ability to control the distribution of the mods they take many many hours to develop. I have no idea what purpose that serves, but I would hazard a guess that it is to protect the end user. I cannot say I have closely followed technic packs policies, so correct me if I am wrong. But I am given to understand that the updates are not what one would call regular. This might be a problem for developers in that they may believe that the end user is not getting the quality they deserve. There are other issues, but these are not necessarily Technics fault, such as Technic users going to individual mod threads for tech support rather than coming here.

But that is all kind of besides the point legal or not. When a mod developer puts on their thread that they would like to be notified or asked before including a mod in a pack. Then take the couple of minutes to write a PM and ask.

[noonespecial1]

They care because they were the ones to make the mods. Imagine you go and spend hours upon hours making something. Then it suddenly gets taken by a bunch of people who then uses it again without your permission. I know I would be angry.

well if i made a mod i would only be happy if someone wanted to use it.

Because rightly or wrongly. Some developers believe they should have the ability to control the distribution of the mods they take many many hours to develop. I have no idea what purpose that serves, but I would hazard a guess that it is to protect the end user. I cannot say I have closely followed technic packs policies, so correct me if I am wrong. But I am given to understand that the updates are not what one would call regular. This might be a problem for developers in that they may believe that the end user is not getting the quality they deserve. There are other issues, but these are not necessarily Technics fault, such as Technic users going to individual mod threads for tech support rather than coming here.

i do not agree but i guess that's their right to do that if they feel it is needed.

[The Merchant of Menace]

I can actually see where modmakers are coming from when they say that they want to be notified and asked. There are few things more annoying than having users who due to a modpack are using an out of date version of your mod, coming and complaining about bug reports or asking for x feature. I know I was chatting with one of the people who work on Mystcraft about just that fact.

That's not to say I agree with all the hate. It makes the end users lives' much easer, which, when you it comes down to it, is entirely what a game should be about.

[danidas]

As killerx09 pointed out, when technic was created it was a small pack intended for private use by the technic devs and a few friends. That all changed when the yogcast made it public and it was too late to get permissions. When that happened the reaction form the modding community was less than pleasant so getting permissions and any respect than was a no go.

Edit: Personally I can only guess but I have a feeling that the reaction and lack of respect they got when this happened destroyed any respect they had for most of the modders. In effect burning the bridges before they had a chance to be built. Which too me would be good enough reason to ignore the modders and focus on the users instead. Since history will show that the technic pack was and still is a really good and amazing thing for the minecraft modding community. Not only for the reasons you pointed out but also for bringing a very large amount of people into the community that otherwise would probably not be here.

Personally I can only wonder what would of happened if its entry into public eye was done in a more controlled manner.

[perpetualgamer]

I've been avoiding this topic because I love both FTB and Technic Pack. However there is one key thing I felt I had to chime in about. If the developers of the mods in question are truly not monsters, then it doesn't matter how many "bridges" Kaker has burnt, if he choose to (I cannot speak to his master plan) he could rebuild them. If you thought the Technic Pack was a good idea, why would you come here and suggest that the glue that holds it all together leaves.

Ultimately the key feature comes down to what The Merchant of Menace said, a game should be entirely about the end-user. When someone says "Hey, mods are making this game funner, keep doing them." they do so because it makes the game better for the end-user. However regardless of permissions or not, I care not for any of that, I also don't care for any legal argument. On a fundamental level why would you work on a game if your only goal wasn't to make the end-user happy. If you truly believe that goal why should it matter who does what with who's code.

*SNIP*

I love the work of these developers, but I am afraid they are forgetting the real reason why they got into this in the first place. I can't honestly belive that they did it for recognition and money (I am exclusively referring to technic pack mod developers; It's very obvious that some MCDev's are in it for just those). We play these games for fun, we build on top of these games for fun. As soon as we fight amongst each other, no matter how "assholish" any one party looks, is the moment we are no better than EA or Activision, or any other developer/publisher who only cares about the bottom line.

Thank you for your time.

EDIT: That entire section breaks the rules, so I can't use it in an argument. Which is a shame. Just imagine it was very convincing.

[noonespecial1]

i agree with perpetualgamer. this hate is doing nothing but making it harder for the users.

can't we just turn a new leaf and focus on what matters? the mods we love. the game we love. i belive we can all agree on that this hate between technicpack and the modders are doing nothing good for the game.

[slowpoke101]

So danidas I am sorry but this argument about yogcast making it public and it being to late to get permissions just does not stand up in any way. They didnt get permissions in the early days, not because they asked and were denied permissions. They just did not care and they just never asked. This isnt my words, this is kakermixs words. Yet no one seems to look to him for an explaination of that? It wasnt that they were told no in the early days because as far as I can ascertain and I have spoken to a number of mod developers about this. Not a single one was given the opportunity to say yes or no back then.

Perpetual me suggesting Kaker leave is stupid, its never going to happen we all know that. My point is I am giving a valid possible solution to the problem. That solution involves the admins recognising that the pack is bigger than the Man. If Kaker left technic today? would that hurt technic? I have no idea because I have no idea what his contribution is. Then we look at the possible benefits, again I want to make this clear, I speak for no developer here, these are purely my own thoughts. Kaker leaving technic, may open the door that allows the other admins to repair a lot of the damage that was done in the early days. Wouldn't it be cool to see a pack like technic with a full set of open permissions and the distribution capabilities of Technic supported by youtubers like Yogscast on the minecraft forums. Opening up to an even bigger audience than it already has. But its never going to happen because and this next line is really important.

Kakermix does not care about the end user. He only cares about the ones that believe what he says. Is there a single none admin person reading this thread who has seen this list of permissions that technic has? anyone?

Dont take things on blind faith, question assertions that are made without evidence.

Hey if I am wrong and this list exists thats awesome. I keep saying and I mean it, show me some evidence in a public place for all to see and I will support the pack to the hilt. But dont worry, I am a small fish in a big sea and no one is going to do that now.

[noonespecial1]

I myself do not give single fuck about kakermix.

I also do not give a single fuck about those modders who screw over their users.

I do just want to play this fucking game without having to care about all you'r drama

so please fucking grow up.

[slowpoke101]

Nicely argued Nonespecial1. I shall take into account you eloquently made argument take into account your points and um do absolutely nothing. Thankfully however this has literally nothing to do with you. You are one of those end users that contributes nothing to a discussion or the community and just takes what they want without any consideration for anyone other than yourself.

In other words you are irrelevent.

[killerx09]

Speaking for myself, I haven't seen a list of permissions for Technic from the modders. To be honest, I doubt one exsists. I'm still using Technic anyway, for the sole reason that it would take me hours to go through the mods and install them manually, then correcting the IDs in order to play online with my friends.

If the modpack slowpoke is making is of a higher quality, (which, looking at DW server let's play, is) and is easy to install as Technic, I will without hesitant move to the slowpoke pack.

EDIT: I'll hate it if it's called Feed the Beast modpack though.

[perpetualgamer]

Kakermix, cares more about the end-user than many developers. If you need proof, then look to the recent debacle with SirSengir and forestry. SS cared so much about end-users that if they used Technic his bees destroyed their world. Kaker cared so much about end-users that he quickly removed the malicious mod. If SS ever cared about end-users, he proved that he no longer does with that little bit of code. Kaker has made everyone on this forum, enjoy the game just a little bit more. I would never have got into mods without TechnicPack, I can say that 100%. I am the proof that what kaker has built, is great. Just as a stupid side-note, the great wall of china, one of the greatest pieces of construction in this world, is built upon corpses.

I don't think you fully understand... I see your point of view I do, you keep asking us as Technic users to give you this list of permissions. I am going to lay this out for you as straight as possible. No one here cares about the list of permissions. If you are a Technic user then you understand the reason the pack exists, and you personally usually don't care about permissions. I don't care if Kaker asked, I care that Kaker made me a amazingly simple to use modpack. I cannot speak for the entire community of TechnicPack.net but I'm confident that I am not the only one who feels this way. Do not call us mindless sheep, we do not question Kaker because we all realized that our enjoyment of this game is more important than some squabble between Kaker and a bunch of developers. No one is in the right, Kaker isn't for being an overall asshat, and proud. The Developers aren't right for being so covert, riling and splitting the community.

All that should matter is rather I can enjoy minecraft. All that should matter is that YOU can enjoy minecraft. If there is someone out there that isn't enjoying minecraft then we as a community (Minecraft community) have failed. We as developers have ruined are chances to change the way things are done in the world. We as Technic have ruined the opportunity to provide a real experience for end-users. If you want to support infighting and bickering then please continue down your current path. If you want the game to continue to be great, realize the truth.

The truth is that this is our game, we will play it how we want to play it, and we deserve to play it in the best ways possible. If a solution that does this same thing is much better than Technic then good for it. If Technic remains the only major modpack for a long time, great for it. But as the gamer, as a player. I will not stand for some person who thinks they are elect among men, to ruin my experience, because he doesn't like a person. I will not stand idly by while you insult a man who has done more to move this game forward than a man who installed a virus in his software to get people to stop using it a certain way. The developer may have made the effort, done the work, but they did it for a game, for fun, for the user! Why do they choose to forget that now? Because a man named Kaker has a troll personality. If a developer openly says they want their mod out of Technic, then I believe Kaker would begrudgingly do it. However to any developer who wants their mod out of Technic, I say this:

"You are perpetuating the deceit and destruction that major game development/publishing corporations have been inflicting upon the user for years. Are you proud of yourself, are you so prideful that you can't enjoy the fact that users use your mod without asking? Do you think every customer of a product emails the company asking to you use it before they do? What makes you so much better than me? Do I not matter?"

If they want to take it out even after answering that question, then they do not belong here. They do not belong in a community. They belong at a round table, surround by other soulless pathetic investors, whose only goal is to squeeze recognition and money out of the masses. I am proud to be a member of the Technic community, a Community where innovation and the joy of the game is spread. I am proud to not be viewed as a simple member of the masses.

Kaker & CO I salute you.