IC2 and more...

[xanthan]

Sheesh just make a diamond pipe, 2 wood pipes, and some cobble pipes, now use those to push wood from a chest into a powered furnace powered by 3 redstone engines with the charcoal then being piped into a steam engine with an aqueous accumulator keeping it full of water.

There, you only need to pay occasionally put logs into a chest.

[plowmanplow]

Yes, there may currently be a lack of diversity in tech buildup. However, as a little experiment I made a new world and focused exclusively on getting a fully equipped modular power suit (which lets you fly and a ton of other things) and 48 magmatic engines running on lava coming through tesseracts from the nether that were controlled by a BC gate on the redstone energy cell to only run the engines when the cell wasn't full.

This took 6 hours. So, in 6 short hours you can fly, be invulnerable, and have 192 MJ/t worth of infinite power. Not a bad start to a base.

[Teraku]

IMO Thermal Expansion and Buildcraft fits the theme of Minecraft better than IC2 does.

Steam engines cannot explode, so you were very confused then or are very confused now.

He was using the RailCraft Steam Engines. BC's Steam engines are now called Stirling Engines IIRC.

[King Lemming]

IMO Thermal Expansion and Buildcraft fits the theme of Minecraft better than IC2 does.

He was using the RailCraft Steam Engines. BC's Steam engines are now called Stirling Engines IIRC.

Also, the TE Steam Engine. It's just called "Steam Engine" though, I may need to change the name to alleviate confusion.

[Lethosos]

Suggest "Thermal Engine". Means pretty much that, since you're heating up water to power it.

[Teraku]

Also, the TE Steam Engine. It's just called "Steam Engine" though, I may need to change the name to alleviate confusion.

So what's the difference between the TE Steam Engine and the BC Stirling Engine?

[theprolo]

So what's the difference between the TE Steam Engine and the BC Stirling Engine?

TE steam engine produces more power and requires water, I think.

[Coco12570]

I am satisfied just with the fact I can create a factory on mars. 'Nuff said

[Teraku]

TE steam engine produces more power and requires water, I think.

Ah, I see. A bit more work for a higher efficiency.

I am satisfied just with the fact I can create a factory on mars. 'Nuff said

I'm pretty sure Mars isn't in yet. Only Earth, Space Stations and the Mun Moon. Which, by the way, is already bloody magnificent. Just saying. Galacticraft is one of my favourite mods now.

[Coco12570]

Ah, I see. A bit more work for a higher efficiency.

I'm pretty sure Mars isn't in yet. Only Earth, Space Stations and the Mun Moon. Which, by the way, is already bloody magnificent. Just saying. Galacticraft is one of my favourite mods now.

I know, but my modding team is working on an ad-don for a Galacticraft (Hopefully thats alright, as we aren't distributing it, its just for our team) that lets you use it like multiverse, should've said that first, probably

[cerevox]

Eventfully, minecraft and Kerbal Space Program will converge into one thing, and the whole world will explode from the awesome.

[shads]

My biggest problem with the current tekkit is its basically a tech rail ride. There's one line beginning to end where the old tekkit classic was more about choice and variety, 30 ways to do anything. So far galacticraft adds next to nothing of interest. :/ Moon was pretty boring after the "heh cheese" effect.

[Teraku]

Tekkit Lite was also basically one rail of IC2 tech. You were able to use other tech, but you still got wrapped up in IC2 every single time.

[Timendainum]

I'll throw in my 2 cents on this one. Without IC2 and RP2 (more Ic2) my friends and our server has decided to opt for sticking with Tekkit Lite rather than start a new Tekkit.

For one, it would require regenerating our map. I've not see any upgrades paths anyhow. Too much history to just start over.

Secondly, there is no end game content (except space?). The best power generation is either combustion or lava fed engines or generators. No UU matter. No tier 2/tier 3 machines. Thermal Expansion, MFR, all those are great mods. But they are all tier 1 tech with somewhat limited upgrade possibilities. This would feel like a major downgrade to us.

While I can understand the decisions made. Tekki Lite presented you with more options that you'd ever need, and the new Tekkit seems simplistic and limited compared to Tekki Lite. Which is ironic considering the naming of each mod pack.

[Howard_Roark_]

My biggest problem with the current tekkit is its basically a tech rail ride. There's one line beginning to end where the old tekkit classic was more about choice and variety, 30 ways to do anything.

My thoughts exactly. The idea of a central mod pack loader such as Technic Launcher is a brilliant idea, but for the life of me I cannot understand why these people who make the mod packs try to put as few mods in the pack when the idea should be to include as many mods as possible. I have always rolled my own mod packs. I always added in all my favorite mods and some mods that sound interesting and some mods that I just want to explore. I would never play with only the few mods included in the current Tekkit pack.

There are many different kinds of people in this world. Everyone has their own personalities, likes, dislikes, and so on. Some of us love tech. Some love magic. Some are jack-of-all-trades. Some of us are not so creative, and some of us can never have enough colors on our palette. The best mod pack would be one that included the most mods to suit the widest variety of gamers.

I think sometimes some people over-think some things when they should simply make all options available and see where the chips may fall. Part of me wonders if the current Tekkit pack isn't a victim of a lack of permissions granted.

[plowmanplow]

If you have a "kitchen sink" modpack (not a criticism, just a phrase) it does provide a TON of different ways you can do things. However, what happens when you want to have a server with a couple dozen or more people on at once? Does the mod collection scale well? Is it balanced? Can it be protected from grief? How well do those mod authors keep up with MC and Forge updates?

The challenge being that the more mods you have, the more difficult it can be to update and bugfix while still maintaining a world which has been assembled by many, many people.

[CanVox]

I think sometimes some people over-think some things when they should simply make all options available and see where the chips may fall. Part of me wonders if the current Tekkit pack isn't a victim of a lack of permissions granted.

This is just silly, here's a list of mods we could include in Tekkit but won't, either because the license is permissive, we have permissions from before, or because I'm reasonably confident that we could get permissions because I've talked to the authors in the past:

- Forestry

- Extra Bees

- RP2

- IC2

- Mo' Creatures

- Factorization

- Dungeon Pack

- Metallurgy

And many, many more. This idea that we stopped carrying a load of mods because of permissions, when all of those mods have permissive licenses shows a real lack of understanding of how permissions work for mods. Here's the thing: anyone can make a modpack that includes like a hundred mods in it. The Technic Platform exists, people are throwing a lot of great stuff up on it. If you want a big modlist, there's a lot of opportunities for that on the Platform. Heck, even Big Dig has been accused of being a big mod list with no cohesion, so try that.

The whole idea is that the stuff we put out should be cohesive, be centered around a particular play experience, and handle that play experience well. For tekkit, one of the rules is, it has to run really well in multiplayer. That means it's not going to have a bunch of random mods thrown in, and the mod list needs to be small enough that server performance remains solid, since Tekkit's success will be judged by how well it works as an SMP experience. It was also important for us to cut out every mod that we weren't 100% certain we wanted to stick with for a long while. We almost never get the opportunity to remove a mod from a modpack, because it breaks worlds when we do it. In the case of IC2 and RP2, we HAD to remove those two mods at this specific juncture- I am 100% certain that IC2 and RP2 support is going to decline over time, and we don't want to be caught in a position 3 months from now where those two mods are finally dead but they're tied around our ankle.

That said, there are some criticisms that we hear and are looking to address. I need you to understand that we're never going to just throw a bunch of crap into the pack just because we can. That's not what pack this is. If you want more stuff, you can play Big Dig or any number of Platform packs, and if you want to play just an arbitrary list of 100 mods that are questionably updated, there is a pack or two for that too. That said, adding additional tech options, at every stage in the game, is something I consider important. New generators is something I consider very important.

Some sort of late game energy sink is something I consider nice, but not important, and I'll tell you why: Buildcraft energy doesn't scale like IC2's does. In IC2 you need about 4EU/t to process and cook ore, and 16 EU/t to run a basic factory with advanced machines. But you can build a massive 2k EU/t array of reactors, and of course that means you need something to do with it. Even at endgame, Buildcraft reactors tend not go go nova like this. The largest power source in Tekkit is Biofuel at 16MJ/t, and keeping that reliably powered can be a project in itself. I'd like to keep that going and let players come up with giant endgame projects other than an HV solar factory.

[Aurrin]

Some sort of late game energy sink is something I consider nice, but not important, and I'll tell you why: Buildcraft energy doesn't scale like IC2's does. In IC2 you need about 4EU/t to process and cook ore, and 16 EU/t to run a basic factory with advanced machines. But you can build a massive 2k EU/t array of reactors, and of course that means you need something to do with it. Even at endgame, Buildcraft reactors tend not go go nova like this. The largest power source in Tekkit is Biofuel at 16MJ/t, and keeping that reliably powered can be a project in itself. I'd like to keep that going and let players come up with giant endgame projects other than an HV solar factory.

I think having extra power from an array and wanting to do something with it is anything but a problem. Be careful: the road lined with people crying that things are too 'OP' and not hard enough ends somewhere in the vicinity of GregTech's recipe crippling.

I understand the desire to trim the pack down a bit for performance sake (and thank you for pointing that out, as before some of the decisions didn't seem to make a lot of sense), but having some high-end sinks is a large part of what makes the game worth playing. In particular, high-versatility sinks are the best, with a good example being MFFS. (Not that you need put that, specifically, back in, but something to replace it would be very helpful.) RP frames were another good high-end sink, because they allowed you to build complex multi-block machines. I know they have their problems, but if a suitable replacement can be found, it would be an excellent idea.

[CanVox]

I think having extra power from an array and wanting to do something with it is anything but a problem. Be careful: the road lined with people crying that things are too 'OP' and not hard enough ends somewhere in the vicinity of GregTech's recipe crippling.

I understand the desire to trim the pack down a bit for performance sake (and thank you for pointing that out, as before some of the decisions didn't seem to make a lot of sense), but having some high-end sinks is a large part of what makes the game worth playing. In particular, high-versatility sinks are the best, with a good example being MFFS. (Not that you need put that, specifically, back in, but something to replace it would be very helpful.) RP frames were another good high-end sink, because they allowed you to build complex multi-block machines. I know they have their problems, but if a suitable replacement can be found, it would be an excellent idea.

Well the issue isn't "OP" the issue is that IC2 requires high-end power sinks because high-end engines produce more power than you can use. Like I said before, IC2's best skill is solving problems created by IC2. Buildcraft doesn't have the problem, and therefore doesn't need the solution. Now if there's something particularly cool you want as a feature, then that's a real request. Wanting UU-Matter or something like it back is a real request. But, "please give me something to do with my excess power... also I miss having excess power" isn't a real request. It's just asking us to go back to the way IC2 did things.

[Aurrin]

I think you may be pushing a little too hard against 'the way IC2 did things' and throwing some of the good out with the bad. There's nothing wrong with having higher-tier sinks just for the sake of something to do. In a sense, all games just add problems so that you can solve them. But if you want some specific, multi-use ideas:

- Teleporters (sci-fi style, preferably)

- Force-fields

- Lasers

- A way to communicate between computers and rednet cables

- Large-scale block movement

- Vessel propulsion

And those are just related to one specific build idea I had in mind. I'm sure there are many more possibilities.

[CanVox]

I think you may be pushing a little too hard against 'the way IC2 did things' and throwing some of the good out with the bad. There's nothing wrong with having higher-tier sinks just for the sake of something to do. In a sense, all games just add problems so that you can solve them. But if you want some specific, multi-use ideas:

- Teleporters (sci-fi style, preferably)

- Force-fields

- Lasers

- A way to communicate between computers and rednet cables

- Large-scale block movement

- Vessel propulsion

And those are just related to one specific build idea I had in mind. I'm sure there are many more possibilities.

And these are all awesome suggestions, so keep this stuff coming. My problem isn't with this stuff, it's with the wag-the-dog approach of finding things to spend a ton of energy on and then complaining that BC engines don't produce large energy surpluses. It's an assumption that end game always has to work like it did in IC2, with practical-use energy becoming basically free and the large surpluses being required for all the cool end-game stuff. Let me ask you a question: about how often did IC2 teleporters get used? About how often SHOULD they have been used? The energy requirements made a potentially-awesome block almost entirely off limits for all but a few uses, because they were conceived as a way to expend energy, not as a cool thing people were supposed to use.

For the record, ComputerCraft integration with rednet is coming in the next CCraft version, and higher-tier Galacticraft vehicles are also on the way. Also, it would take something truly revolutionary for us to include anything like frames ever again- players love them, but modders HAAAAAATE them.

[Aurrin]

And these are all awesome suggestions, so keep this stuff coming.

I will do my best.

My problem isn't with this stuff, it's with the wag-the-dog approach of finding things to spend a ton of energy on and then complaining that BC engines don't produce large energy surpluses. It's an assumption that end game always has to work like it did in IC2, with practical-use energy becoming basically free and the large surpluses being required for all the cool end-game stuff. Let me ask you a question: about how often did IC2 teleporters get used? About how often SHOULD they have been used? The energy requirements made a potentially-awesome block almost entirely off limits for all but a few uses, because they were conceived as a way to expend energy, not as a cool thing people were supposed to use.

And from a mod-design standpoint, sure. But from an player standpoint, we may not be able to discover more inventive uses and projects if we can't adequately power quite a bit more than we're nominally expected to use. Still, I guess that's your call.

For the record, ComputerCraft integration with rednet is coming in the next CCraft version, and higher-tier Galacticraft vehicles are also on the way.

That's good, though being able to build my own vessel would be ideal. (Similar to zepplin mod, though hopefully less buggy - I want to build starships!)

Also, it would take something truly revolutionary for us to include anything like frames ever again- players love them, but modders HAAAAAATE them.

I think some of this may be due to the invasive and secretive methods used to implement RP2 frames. If you were to work with MCF and get deeper support for it, it might not be nearly as big a headache for modders. Also, if anything comes along close to that, it would be worth risking, as frames were a real game-changer in a way that few other mods have ever been.

( Fun fact: I used EE2, IC2 and RP frames to build an automatic, coordinate-targeted, force-shielded, self-reloading nuclear killsat, up above most people's draw distances. )

[KakerMix]

I think some of this may be due to the invasive and secretive methods used to implement RP2 frames. If you were to work with MCF and get deeper support for it, it might not be nearly as big a headache for modders. Also, if anything comes along close to that, it would be worth risking, as frames were a real game-changer in a way that few other mods have ever been.

There is no 'working with MCF', the issue was Eloraam either refused or didn't find it necessary to have some sort of API that allowed other people to use Frames. They were neat for a few people, ignored by others, and derided by other modders because of the hackish-way frames manipulated the game in order to have them exist in the first place.

[Aurrin]

There is no 'working with MCF', the issue was Eloraam either refused or didn't find it necessary to have some sort of API that allowed other people to use Frames. They were neat for a few people, ignored by others, and derided by other modders because of the hackish-way frames manipulated the game in order to have them exist in the first place.

Yes. And I mean that if someone else was to implement a similar system, they could (and should) work with forge's dev team to ensure that APIs were available and ensure maximum compatibility with other mods. It tempts me to try downloading the SDK and brushing up on java again...

[cerevox]

I can understand why IC2 had such an extreme energy thing going on. Think of it in tech tree terms. Because of quarries and dense ore worlds, or both in combination, anyone can get near infinite physical resources with ease. That meant that any high end item would become available after quarry. The only way to force players to actually progress up the IC2 tech tree would be to force them to use internal to only IC2 items or to have vast sums of power which only IC2 could produce. IC2 actually did both, with compressors producing IC2 only items use in the construction of endgame IC2 and reactors required for the power.

The end game items were the goal, the endgame power was created as a barrier to be overcome to gain the endgame items. However, IC2 made it very easy to get that power, defeating the whole point. EE2 had the exact same problem with red/dark matter and energy collectors, although energy collectors were even more hilariously broken than reactors.

It is good to have some kind of high end tech, something to work towards. Right now there really isn't such a thing in tekkit as far as I can tell. Everything feels low tier, we just don't have any high tier stuff in right now. It is possible to produce absurd power with large magmatic or biofuel arrays, but there simply isn't anything to do with the power.

What is really needed is high tier stuff that people actually want to use that can soak up all the excess power. Something like an overworld<->moon portal that has a constant, very high, power draw to keep open. I can easily see factions on servers each wanting one, and because of the lack of reactor equivalents, having to build and maintain large power plants of some kind. Maintaing the plants would require its own support. That would be something useful and wanted for its own sake that actually requires more than a handful of magmatic engines to run and would function as an end game goal.

Or there could be a threat. No one thinks it odd to stockpile energy in voltz. At any moment a missile or 8 could come flying down at your base and you would need to be able to power shields to protect yourself, fire missiles back, power gun turrets and railguns, all while possibly having any surface machines blown away.

The real problem with most of IC2 end game stuff was that no one liked or used it, teleporters were pointed out as a good example of that. It almost felt like the goal and barrier flipped, with reactors being the goal and some way to use the power became the barrier. Tekkit just needs to find a few solid end game things that actually require support to make work. Right now, it feels like end game tekkit is a quarry and a tesseract with a nether pumping station. There simply isn't anywhere to go past that.

Hopefully some of this made sense.