EE and Tekkit

[Brentnauer]

Agreed; I was immensely impressed with the depth of Tekkit until I learned about EE. The fact that it's disabled on what seems to be the majority of servers should be a red flag...

In SSP I imagine it's great fun, and it's probably very useful for a small subset of Tekkit servers - But not the majority.

[NightKev]

Except if you remove it from Tekkit completely, then NO ONE can use it (check out the [new] server posting rules, you can't add client mods and post it there). Therefore, even if only 20% of the servers are using it, it should be kept in.

[vitorsly]

Except if you remove it from Tekkit completely, then NO ONE can use it (check out the [new] server posting rules, you can't add client mods and post it there). Therefore, even if only 20% of the servers are using it, it should be kept in.

I agree. Now that we can only make tekkit servers using normal tekkit we can choose if we want it or not.

I wouldn't even mind if it started locked by default but by changing a value in a config file or something, we could un-lock it!

[Brentnauer]

Except if you remove it from Tekkit completely, then NO ONE can use it (check out the [new] server posting rules, you can't add client mods and post it there). Therefore, even if only 20% of the servers are using it, it should be kept in.

By that logic, Tekkit should just add every mod under the sun and force server administrators to delete the ones they don't want.

I agree. Now that we can only make tekkit servers using normal tekkit we can choose if we want it or not.

I wouldn't even mind if it started locked by default but by changing a value in a config file or something, we could un-lock it!

This is probably the best option - EE needs to be more customization options so it can be tailored to the environment.

[NightKev]

Except people are already using it, there is no theory to consider here. It does not impact you in any way if it stays in, just find a server with it disabled. Is there some reason people are incapable of comprehending this extremely simple concept?

[ComMcNeil]

I guess the most overpowered thing on EE is the ability to "create" matter with the collectors/relays. I dont think the power items of EE that use fuel are that overpowered, as mining a 16x3x3 field with the DC costs you 1 glowstone dust in EMC, which is not that little.

If the collectors are removed, as well as every ability to create matter out of nothing, then I would consider it balanced. That includes combinations like the block breaker + condenser/eternal density or maceration of blaze rods + condensing new rods.

However I dont think the other stuff in EE is op, changing matter into other matter is very much the core of this mod and if matter is limited, than it should be fine.

[vitorsly]

By that logic, Tekkit should just add every mod under the sun and force server administrators to delete the ones they don't want.

Or maybe use QUALITY mods only. EE IS a quality mod just like IC, RP, CC and BC.

I don't see why anyone would want those obsidian tools mods that are way to cheap and way too strong!

EE is ALREADY in Tekkit. If we remove it the work so many people had to make it compatible with the other mods would be WASTED.

Adding other mods just requires more effort and may not be worth it.

[Dijego]

So, you say you don't want to go off-topic, and then you ask us to find for you a server because browsing some pages of the section is too boring for you... Ah, the irony.

I never asked anywhere that I wanted you to look for a server for me. If I did, please quote that part.

If you did that you WANTED it to be overpowered!

If you don't like EE than why did you play in a server with it?

And EE is rotten. You are! You have the lack of will to not use something you consider bad.

As a wise man once said: " If you think a rule is unjust and you still follow that rule, then YOU are unjust"

Well, I played it because I wanted to give it a go. How else would I be able to form an opinion?

Allow me to make a slight adjustment to the words of the wise man: If you know a rule is unjust and you still follow that rule, then you are unjust.

I do not understand though not wanting towny on a pvp server if you have the playerbase to utilize it. I can see with less than a dozen people it hampering more than helping. Towny is an excellent mod provided the configuration of the economy is strong enough to enforce it to the appropriate levels.

I never really tried towny, factions was good enough for me so I didn't take the time to learn it. The server towny was on usually had other flaws that would make me leave.

I'm going to throw my2 cents in, Remove EE, I don't know one single person who uses It on any server, Its the first thing that gets disabled/removed. It is completely cheating, and 100% unbalanced. Now endgame tekkit... quantum armor is cheating too but at-least that takes a while to get.

Well, quantum and nano suits are both also overpowered in my eyes and I would love to see them go on disabled mode at PvP servers as well. Also both of those are fairly easy to get. But that is an IC2 discussion.

Except people are already using it, there is no theory to consider here. It does not impact you in any way if it stays in, just find a server with it disabled. Is there some reason people are incapable of comprehending this extremely simple concept?

Finding a server where it is disabled is extremely tough due to the fact that many people don't want it gone and this causes a lack of players on servers where it is disabled. I believe that on PvP servers EE should be disabled, it is an infectious disease that diminishes the need for creativity by large amounts. It presents an easy solution to most of the problems you encounter on a minecraft world. (Probably why people like it.)

Or maybe use QUALITY mods only. EE IS a quality mod just like IC, RP, CC and BC.

I don't see why anyone would want those obsidian tools mods that are way to cheap and way too strong!

EE is ALREADY in Tekkit. If we remove it the work so many people had to make it compatible with the other mods would be WASTED.

Adding other mods just requires more effort and may not be worth it.

EE is not a quality mod in my eyes, at least not for tekkit pvp. Also you should play something because it is good, not because someone put a lot of work in it. I know the mod creators have worked hard and I do appreciate it, but it should not influence my opinion on the quality.

[Watchful11]

I'm going to throw my2 cents in, Remove EE, I don't know one single person who uses It on any server, Its the first thing that gets disabled/removed. It is completely cheating, and 100% unbalanced. Now endgame tekkit... quantum armor is cheating too but at-least that takes a while to get.

Well my 2 cents say to not take it out. So we are back to even.

While i may agree that it is unbalanced, the only argument you provided was the it is the first thing that gets disabled on a server, which is not always true.

Anyway, people can just continue to disable it, personally i could not live without the bags.

Or maybe use QUALITY mods only. EE IS a quality mod just like IC, RP, CC and BC.

I don't see why anyone would want those obsidian tools mods that are way to cheap and way too strong!

EE is ALREADY in Tekkit. If we remove it the work so many people had to make it compatible with the other mods would be WASTED.

Adding other mods just requires more effort and may not be worth it.

EE is not a quality mod in my eyes, at least not for tekkit pvp. Also you should play something because it is good, not because someone put a lot of work in it. I know the mod creators have worked hard and I do appreciate it, but it should not influence my opinion on the quality.

Hey, look at this. Maybe we should get a team of people together to spend lots of time making a pack of only quality mods. Oh wait, that's what the tekkit team does. They spend i have no idea how much time sorting through the dozens of mods out there and picking only the best ones.

Tekkit is comprised of quality mods. EE is a quality mod, it has several innovative, well thought out features that no other mod has.

It also is compatable with other mods, you can use pipes and tubes to interact with the blocks. There are plenty of mod items with emc values.

It just isn't balanced.

I guess the most overpowered thing on EE is the ability to "create" matter with the collectors/relays. I dont think the power items of EE that use fuel are that overpowered, as mining a 16x3x3 field with the DC costs you 1 glowstone dust in EMC, which is not that little.

If the collectors are removed, as well as every ability to create matter out of nothing, then I would consider it balanced. That includes combinations like the block breaker + condenser/eternal density or maceration of blaze rods + condensing new rods.

However I dont think the other stuff in EE is op, changing matter into other matter is very much the core of this mod and if matter is limited, than it should be fine.

The most overpowered thing about EE is the ability to create matter.

But it has other overpowered things as well.

As a server operator i can say that the ability to change matter into other types of matter is completly economy breaking.

It is impossible to remove the ability to create matter out of nothing. Growing trees is creating matter out of nothing.

"Balance is the concept and the practice of tuning a game's rules, usually with the goal of preventing any of its component systems from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers"

An example i like to use is that of ghast tears. Without checking i believe it has the same emc value as a diamond. So this means you can go underground and find a diamond, then use it to make a potion of regeneration. This is not at all how notch imagined it. Your supposed to go to the nether to find a kill a ghast. But no just diamonds, should you be able to turn a field of wheat into that tear? or a bunch of zombie flesh?

The mod is a good mod, but completly unbalanced.

I look forward to the complete rewrite coming in EE3.

Edit: i somehow missed page 6 of this thread.

[The_DarthMoogle]

I'm going to wade back in and put my argument here again.

I'm totally cool with people playing the game how they want.

It's just so many people are incapable of using the other mods like RedPower and ComputerCraft simply because they have no need to.

Removing it altogether would be over reacting for sure.

[Rashid]

It's just so many people are incapable of using the other mods like RedPower and ComputerCraft simply because they have no need to..

This kinda proves it:

Which one of these is your favorite mod?

BuildCraft: 259

Industrial Craft: 1042

RedPower: 158

Equivalent Exchange: 760

[Brentnauer]

Someone earlier mentioned EE getting a complete overhaul... Source?

[gman96734]

An example i like to use is that of ghast tears. Without checking i believe it has the same emc value as a diamond. So this means you can go underground and find a diamond, then use it to make a potion of regeneration. This is not at all how notch imagined it. Your supposed to go to the nether to find a kill a ghast. But no just diamonds, should you be able to turn a field of wheat into that tear? or a bunch of zombie flesh?

The mod is a good mod, but completly unbalanced.

Actually, I think a ghast tear is about half a diamond. However, you have to realize that you still have to go to the nether and kill at least one ghast and get at least one tear. Because of the learning system in the transmutation tablet, it's not like right off the bat you can change anything to anything. You have to 'know' something in the transmutation tablet. That said, it is still kinda unbalanced, as once you've had something once you can make as many of it as you want.

[racingpro]

Someone earlier mentioned EE getting a complete overhaul... Source?

Uh, Pahimar, the maintainer off EE, saying how he was making EE3 and started from the ground up. Go check out his Twitch channel. He was livestreaming himself working on the code the other night. He actually was streaming about 2 hours before I edited this. Also, it's a lot of coding, but some of us do find it interesting.

[Brentnauer]

Uh, Pahimar, the maintainer off EE, saying how he was making EE3 and started from the ground up. Go check out his Twitch channel. He was livestreaming himself working on the code the other night.

Thank you, I'll definitely check it out!

[greedseed]

i agree EE is completely our the line of "tekkit". The only 2 things that are nice are the dust to repair items and the huge alch bags when you go mining.

Al the rest of EE is complete garbidge and sould never see daylight ever again!

And you are forgeting that IC2 can also make diamonds from nothing.

Not realy! you need massive amounts of power and goods to even get started to build something close to a masfab diamond factory!

Or diamond from coal? Yeah this is at least balanced! 64 coal = 1 diamond

IF EE ever gets balanced it MIGHT have a chance. But it will never be balanced with all the rings tnt like crap and the transmution.

Its like you trade water for whine and copper for gold!

just to compare. A player on a EE server will stop playing that server withing a month !

A player on a NON EE will be playing longer then 2 months.

This is what we have seen on our servers and this is the truth

[NightKev]

Clearly you haven't seen what's been going on at the Pahicraft server DW's been making a series about; the only reason any of them is doing anything on that server is because they're sort of bugtesting the mods, but they all had pretty much full quantum armor and infinite resources within a month at the latest (except for the people that either didn't bother doing much because of that, and dw for his YT series). IC2 doesn't take all that much longer to get you to god status than EE.

[SamuelDM]

Just disable it? I don't see what the problem is? It's like arguing what the point in a car is when we have legs.

[Adlersch]

64 coal = 1 diamond

64 coal equals one diamond in Equivalent Exchange too.

It takes 64 items of equal value in EMC to coal (128 EMC) to create one diamond. That is, 256 charcoal, 64 nikolite, 32 iron, 4 gold, 8 silver, any of those would work.

If you need my math...

Iron bars are 256 EMC

Gold bars are 2048 EMC

Silver Bars are 1024 EMC

Charcoal is 32 EMC (Same as wood in raw form)

Nikolite is 128 EMC

One diamond is 8,192 EMC

If you're going to make an argument about balance using numbers, at least check the math on both sides and make sure the other side doesn't have numbers that match up in exactly the same way.

EDIT: It also does require at least one obsidian for access to a philosopher's stone, transmutation tablet, or even an energy condensor.

[XphX]

Thank you, I'll definitely check it out!

http://github.com/pahimar/Equivalent-Exchange-3 Travel here if you want to see the source code (that is, if you understand any of it.)

[Xylord]

64 coal equals one diamond in Equivalent Exchange too.

It takes 64 items of equal value in EMC to coal (128 EMC) to create one diamond. That is, 256 charcoal, 64 nikolite, 32 iron, 4 gold, 8 silver, any of those would work.

If you need my math...

Iron bars are 256 EMC

Gold bars are 2048 EMC

Silver Bars are 1024 EMC

Charcoal is 32 EMC (Same as wood in raw form)

Nikolite is 128 EMC

One diamond is 8,192 EMC

If you're going to make an argument about balance using numbers, at least check the math on both sides and make sure the other side doesn't have numbers that match up in exactly the same way.

The IC2 version is actually a little bit more expensive, since you also need a bunch of flint, and an obsidian (Nobody uses the bricks or the iron blocks...) to make it on top of all the coal dusts.

[Adlersch]

The IC2 version is actually a little bit more expensive, since you also need a bunch of flint, and an obsidian (Nobody uses the bricks or the iron blocks...) to make it on top of all the coal dusts.

So IC2's way costs 8256 EMC instead of 8192. This is, of course, assuming one has a renewable, reliable energy source (Such as solar power) - that I will admit.

But really a renewable, reliable energy source is my first goal in IC2 - in my opinion doing otherwise (Except for say a nuclear reactor lategame, or playing with fickle 'rules' to make a more interesting gameplay experience) is just plain foolishness.

Alongside that, I also believe it's foolish to use EE before you have a working macerator and electric furnace.

[OmegaJasam]

64 coal equals one diamond in Equivalent Exchange too.

It takes 64 items of equal value in EMC to coal (128 EMC) to create one diamond. That is, 256 charcoal, 64 nikolite, 32 iron, 4 gold, 8 silver, any of those would work.

If you need my math...

Iron bars are 256 EMC

Gold bars are 2048 EMC

Silver Bars are 1024 EMC

Charcoal is 32 EMC (Same as wood in raw form)

Nikolite is 128 EMC

One diamond is 8,192 EMC

If you're going to make an argument about balance using numbers, at least check the math on both sides and make sure the other side doesn't have numbers that match up in exactly the same way.

Firstly, it takes more then coal. Secondly it's the /only/ item that becomes diamonds, and is a balancing item to counter the randomness of diamonds stonewalling you.

It's not just about the math.

The balance problem becomes when you can get any amount of scarce material. Pumkins -> Iron breaks the balance of all mods. IC2's UU matter is also bad when it comes to this, as eventualy it's easyer to make UU matter then gather materials, resulting in an exponential curve if people go for it.

Balancing isn't as simple as x = y. Heck, x should have varable value based on scarcity and need.

EE2, however, is unbalanced in itself, it's a fast exponential curve to super creative mode. This might be the desired result or not. It can be disabaled as needed. Theres not point pretending it's balance or the tier of it's abilitys are even in the same ballpark as other mods. It's not. It useds a compeltly diffrent pardime.

Balance is less obvious then it apears. The Macerator doubles because it balances the scarcity of ore with the rappid cost of IC2, the iorn chests provide large inventorys to deal with an increase number of possable items, and the qualty of said items. The cells allow access to obsidion before diamonds, allowing things to be aproched in diffrent orders.

Theres a lot of values in place in both the balance of each mod individualy, and how they interact.

None of this however, will make EE2 something that needs to be removed.

Diffrent default settings based on what's used might be nice, but then we'd have endess 'How I enable EE2'

[Adlersch]

None of this however, will make EE2 something that needs to be removed.

Dear Guthix someone finally gets it!

Anyways, I wouldn't mind too much if there were different settings, but making them default? I don't think that'd go over well.

An option to have a differently balance EE is fine, and works perfectly for those who feel it overpowered (Because they typically remove or tailor it to their needs anyways) because they already have experience in changing things. Like, "Hey, our server uses x setting for EE. If you wanna play you need x setting enabled. If you don't know how here's how: [Example]."

But given the a good amount of Technic Pack's userbase has little to no modification experience (Even in config files), those folks wouldn't be happy if in the next update "EE is fucked up, WTF?!!??!"

And the majority (Often the silent majority that only register to get onto a server, post bugs [badly], or don't register on these forums at all, only download it and play it) doesn't feel EE is overpowered. They'd come back with a vengeance (Not always angry, just confused for the most part).

That'd cause problems for everyone - those who do feel EE is overpowered included (Having to deal with more idiots not reading stickies on how to set it to the 'old default' and flooding the forums, or complaining that servers use x setting instead of the old y setting).

Frankly I feel this is a compromise which would help everyone (Except maybe those who would have to tailor EE to different (x,y,z) settings, it'd probably be a pain in the ass for them) - removing EE is an over-reaction in my opinion, while leaving it as is without doing anything is obviously not working for some people.

It'd make everyone able to play Tekkit however they like and find others who care for their style of EE easily (Although perhaps not more easily than it is now, but that's my personal opinion).

I think this sober approach to a compromise as opposed to a back-and-forth pointless argument (My goodness, an argument like this is in PAINS) might actually accomplish something or at least make both sides satisfied with this discussion.

[racingpro]

The balance problem becomes when you can get any amount of scarce material. Pumkins -> Iron breaks the balance of all mods. IC2's UU matter is also bad when it comes to this, as eventualy it's easyer to make UU matter then gather materials, resulting in an exponential curve if people go for it.

Balancing isn't as simple as x = y. Heck, x should have varable value based on scarcity and need.

EE2, however, is unbalanced in itself, it's a fast exponential curve to super creative mode. This might be the desired result or not. It can be disabaled as needed. Theres not point pretending it's balance or the tier of it's abilitys are even in the same ballpark as other mods. It's not. It useds a compeltly diffrent pardime.

Pahimar, the maintainer of EE2 and creator of EE3 knows how unblanced EE2 is. That is why hes changing the EMC system greatly for EE3 (And my source for this is him directly, from his livestream the other night). He said (may not be 100% correct) that he is having the recipe items and such have a dynamic EMC value based on what is contained within the recipe. So while, say, a sticky piston crafted with a slimeball may be worth x EMC, a sticky piston crafted with sticky resin will be worth y EMC (just an example).

Thats about as much as I remember/know. Go check out his twitch livestreams if you want to hear more directly from him.

ALSO: If you watch any of his streams live, DO NOT mention Technic or Tekkit. Remember where you are.